Thank you, @Alyssa M for sharing that. It is such a big undertaking to paint trim and cabinets. Walls aren't a big deal but the rest is. I'm sorry you're having that issue. I was tempted to not use a true white. So, again, thank you!!

Is Decorator's White a true white? White a chroma of .2, I think it is unless I don't understand how it works.

Is Decorator's White (149) too far from White Dove (17) on the hue scale? I'm trying to keep the white warm so it will look good with the warm cabinets. If it is too far in hue I think Cloud White (130) will work with warm wood too and is closer in hue to Decorator's White.

Is there a true white that pairs well with Dove White? I saw pictures of someone who painted everything in Dove White with different sheens. But, the chroma is even higher than simply white. I don't want to be stuck.

Ceilings should always be Chantilly Lace, right??

@Lori A. Sawaya do you recommend satin on millwork? I was going to do semi gloss for all of our millwork.

We used to do semi-gloss for trim/millwork, but for around 10 years or so now, most have gone to a "satin" finish. The newer paint products are stronger and withstand knocks and bumps better hence the move to less shine on millwork. I specify "Satin" on most homes now.

@Gina S

L - light - how light a color is vs how dark.

C - Chroma shows how colorful or gray a color is. The lower the chroma the more perfectly neutral gray the color.

H - Hue - the color that is reflected by an object - Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue or Violet.

There are many things to consider when choosing a white. Understanding how white works is important.

True white is an equal balance of all light waves being completely reflected off a surface. True black is an equal balance of all light waves being completely absorbed by a surface. Between the two you have various shades of gray. True white, true black and true gray will all have a chroma of 0. To be a true white the Light level should be 100 and to be a true black the light level would be 0. At a chroma of 0 the hue does not matter - it is a perfect balance of all color.

Here are examples of LCH dancing around the yellow hue family.

Same picture - 4 different backgrounds - what is in your space will change how you perceive the color.

The website I used to produce the color samples is http://davidjohnstone.net/pages/lch-lab-colour-gradient-picker

@Lori A. Sawaya do you recommend satin on millwork? I was going to do semi gloss for all of our millwork.

Depends on the product. Gloss levels are not equal across products. You need to see samples of both gloss levels and go with what you love.

Is Decorator's White a true white? White a chroma of .2, I think it is unless I don't understand how it works.

"True White" doesn't mean anything specific but I can bring some clarity to the term by putting it context of Chroma.

Decorator's white has a chroma value of 0.20 which mean it's not very colorful and it's very close to a true neutral white.

Is Decorator's White (149) too far from White Dove (17) on the hue scale?

No.

Is there a true white that pairs well with Dove White? I saw pictures of someone who painted everything in Dove White with different sheens. But, the chroma is even higher than simply white. I don't want to be stuck.

Dove White or White Dove?

Ceilings should always be Chantilly Lace, right??

I'd never put Chantilly Lace on the ceiling.

@Lori A. Sawaya I really like this color but it is just a little too dark. In-person it looks good with the flooring, carpet, and cabinets but in pictures, the tones seem off.

What white should I look at if I only want it lighter? This color but not as dark.

I think the white is perfect on the trim and doors but I don't know what color it is.

I'm going to get a few more samplize samples. I was going to paint it all BM white dove. Thank you for all the help you have given.

What's the color name and number you're asking about?

Lori, I wish I knew. That would help me so much. I looked in the garage and utility room and didn't find any leftover paint. :(

Thank you for checking in.

Lori, why would you never put Chantilly Lace on a ceiling? What are some whites you like for a ceiling? I’m curious because I used Chantilly Lace on all my trim, doors, and ceilings. It’s not too bright for me, but we have 2700K lighting. (My husband says lighting higher than 3000K can interfere with restful sleep, and he often doesn’t sleep well.)

Could the color be Stone Harbor Greige by PPG? In about 10 days I will be there for almost 3 weeks. I am looking so forward to it. Maybe one of the neighbors knows. I've noticed the other units for sale have the same color.

Thanks for your help!

Lori, why would you never put Chantilly Lace on a ceiling?

No other reason than I think there are prettier colors of white.

All colors 'gray out' to a certain degree on the ceiling because of the angle you view it and how light hits it.

If you choose whites from the green-yellow or green hue family, like Chantilly Lace, they're going to look white with moments of gray.

If you choose a white from the yellow or yellow-red hue family, then the ceiling it's going to look slightly off-white, not as stark with moments of gray.

I simply prefer the latter.

I always pick my white after I know my where I am headed with color. It is like picking a white shirt to go with a suit. Do you need ecru, cream or bright white. You don't necessarily have to have everything nailed down, but you should know what direction you are headed.

If you paint darker, muddy colors you probably would not want Chantilly Lace, it is a bright, clear white that is so perfectly neutral that it is often used to test the undertones of other whites. Will they read blue, green, yellow, pink or purple if set next to Chantilly Lace. Too me, it is too crisp next to something like Revere Pewter, where you may want to go with Cloud White or White Dove. But if you are painting the walls the cleaner, lighter Classic Gray, Chantilly Lace will be beautiful.

During the builders beige and white decade and when Gay became the new Beige Chantilly Lace was most often too clean and crisp. We were using a lot of mid toned muted colors. As we are moving toward more pastels and white on white looks I am seeing Chantilly Lace being used more and more.

I want to follow up on this thread and share that we tried the Super White trim with Simply White walls and it looks awful. They do NOT work together. Simply White really reads yellow with a touch of green and Super White looks a touch violet. I also hate the super white in general and we are so disappointed. We painted all the millwork downstairs super white last week. My best advice to anyone is don't mix whites. My other piece of advice is don't use super white for trim. I am surprised this color is so widely recommended for trim. I did test these paint colors prior to our project but nothing can prepare you for painting so much of a space. This was an expensive mistake but I want to help anyone else from making the same one!

Oh no, @victoria b, I'm so sorry that happened. I know you really tried to do it right. It is so much better to admit our mistakes and fix them instead of trying to fool ourselves and live with it.

What is our plan now? Are you doing simply white everywhere??

Thank you for the advice. I was considering using two different colors.

Once I get in the space I will be able to have a better idea. But, I was considering white dove BM on the trim and dove wing BM on the walls.

https://www.houzz.com/photos/milbank-townhomes-traditional-living-room-new-york-phvw-vp~1495492

We are going to shift gears and do Cloud White on everything in different sheens. I don't like Simply White in my space...too green.

has anyone used Paper white or Oxford White on the walls? Our plan was simply white walls with Chantilly lace trim but the samples on the wall read a little too much yellow. We do love the chantilly lace though (and have used it in our current home and have been happy with it for the past 6 years).

If you don’t want any yellow use Chantilly Lace in satin or semi-gloss for trim and matte or flat for walls and ceilings.

@Anne Rambo_Young Oxford White is very pretty. Soft with a touch of cool. I'd use that everywhere. I would not mix whites. You could mix CL with Paper White maybe but PW looked purple on my walls and it was not the subtle color I was expecting.

@Gina S White Dove and Dove Wing look beautiful together! I'm going to keep Dove Wing in my back pocket. Thank you for sharing that! We have White Dove on our exterior and it's beautiful, I do like Cloud White better for inside.

Whites, like all other neutrals, have to work with your colors and in your space.

It seems to me that too many of the whites end up being overly complex and shift from blue to purple to yellow to green.

I have used the same white in my home for years and have specified it more often than any other white for use in other homes.

The company who made the white I use was bought out by Valspar and discontinued by SW when they bought out BM, but the company was Devine Color and the White was named Icing.

Benjamin Moore can create the color match for Devine Icing - it is in their computer.

You may or may not know that every base is a slightly different color, so paint formulas are specific to the base that it is mixed in.

The formula for 1 gallon of Devine Icing In Benjamin Moore Advance, Satin, Base 1 is:

Y3 ( Oxide Yellow) 0 x 0.7500

W1 (White) 0 x 31.2500

In Benjamin Moore Regal Select, Eggshell. Base 1 it is:

Y2 (Organic Yellow) 0 x 1.0000

O1 (Orange) 0 x 0.2500

W1 (White) 0 x 30.7500

Oxide yellow is an orange yellow

So essentially this is white paint with titanium white added to make it a true clean white with just the lightest touch of orange yellow to warm it up.

I don't have a can of Simply White, but I believe that it is also a simple formula with just Yellow oxide and gray added to the white base. What happens when we desaturate or add gray to yellow? This is why some people see green undertones when they use Simply White.

When I am testing whites or light neutrals I go big, often painting 1/2 a sheet of drywall or a single wall before I commit to the color. Why? Because you simply cannot see the subtle undertones in whites and light neutrals without a big sample.

Jennifer, thank you for your explanations. When you showed me my color on three different backgrounds I didn't understand what you were saying. Then with my search of white colors on Houzz I found another post where you explained it and it clicked. So, interesting how different these colors look and it explains why the same color looks so different for other people.

@Jennifer Hogan I agree, I think that is my best bet here and will give that a shot. We have decided to use the same white on both the walls and trim. Now just need to decide which white!

Thank you Gina, it makes my day when I am able to help someone with color!

Anne, on BM's website they had chantilly lace with cloud white and it looked really soothing. Take a look at their inspiration pictures.

Sorry to butt in, but I love discussions of white paint. We just bought a house and painted every room in SW Alabaster, on trim as well as walls (for ceilings, we just told painters to use "ceiling white," so have no idea if it has a name). We liked BM Simply White, but went with Alabaster at the last minute. It looks different in every room, but doesn't read green or pinky or blue anywhere. If anything, it leans warm, but I wouldn't go so far as to say yellow. I was worried at first about not accenting the trim with a whiter white, but now I love the effect of having the same color with slightly different sheen.

I usually do different sheens of the same white when doing White on White unless the wall white is a darker, not so white white and you want the contrast. I often do the ceiling in the same white as well, just in flat vs eggshell, but every home has to be looked at individually and the right choices have to be made for the unique challenges that every home brings.

One of my favorite solutions ever was when I painted my last home taupe. When I bought the house it had expensive tile throughout, but they did different tile in the bathrooms and the family room and the sun room, than the halls, kitchen and entry and the bedrooms and living room had carpet. Although they all worked together there were 8 different flooring materials in the house. I picked a mid tone taupe for my neutral and used it on the common area walls and ceilings and continued it on the ceilings in the bedrooms and bathrooms. It was an unusual color choice for ceilings, and I was a bit worried that I was doing something stupid, but the end result was perfect! I got more complements on that home and it broke every rule and was nothing like the then popular builders beige and white fad.

@Jennifer Hogan I'd love to see a picture of that.

I have a colorist coming next week. So, I feel a little better about picking colors. The one white I didn't get a sample of is oxford.

@Gina S let us know how you make out with the colorist! Maybe I need to look into that too. I did get a sample of Oxford and put it up on the wall, so far I haven’t seen any dingyness as one person mentioned and I’m pretty sensitive to that. It is definitely cooler than simply white but to me similar in the saturation.

@petula67 Thanks so much for the tip! I have seen reviews about Alabaster by SW. I will check that color out! My painter uses SW typically, but I only know BM colors. I know he’ll use whatever we want but it’s good to hear someone happy with the SW paint specifically alabaster. Do you like the quality of the paint as well?

Here are some of the old listing photo's.

@Anne Rambo_Young My painter, too, primarily uses SW instead of BM, so that factored into my decision since he was more familiar with their product line and how they cover. I also think SW is more prevalent in my region generally. We had to paint over some pretty dark walls and needed three coats in a few rooms, but two coats covered very nicely in the lighter rooms. We just painted about five weeks ago. It took a bit longer than I expected for the paint to totally cure, probably because it's been blazing hot and humid here, but things seem good now.

Any advice on a white for walls? I have Super White trim semi gloss. I would like just a touch more depth on my walls so looking for advice. My fall back would be Super White eggshell on walls but feel it might be too stark. Thanks

@HU-969855738 Super White everywhere was too stark for me which is why we've decided to do Cloud White everywhere, but some people like that look!

Super White is a very clean white. Probably too white for most homes to be able to pull off on walls and trim. What you don't want to do is pick a second white that is just a hair less white - it will look like you tried to match and missed the mark.

It will look nice next to an off white that has a bit more color. Personally I would go with something like Pale Oak or November Rain or Gray Owl so you get enough contrast to make the look feel intentional. I have seen posts where people used white dove with super white - to me that is too close and would feel like the walls were trying to be white.

Which off-white is best? It really depends on the other colors in your home.

I used BM Super White for my kitchen backsplash and dining area walls and have SW White Heron (BM paint) ultra flat for the ceiling and semi gloss or satin for the baseboards throughout The house. Super white enhances the Corian Juniper countertop and works well with LED lighting. It's not harsh at all with how the northeast natural light moves across the space.

I do plan to use Chantilly Lace, which seems a bit warmer, on the living room/ dining room walls which receive most,y southwest daylight, but would like to incorporate color on one wall. Not sure which wall, though.

Thanks so much for the responses. I have tried several off whites and grieges but nothing seems to work. I have lots of nooks and crannies in my home with sadly only natural light in the front an back of my townhouse. I am having lots of issues with other colors being chameleon colors in light and darker areas. Super White semigloss trim is already up on molding, baseboards, and doors. I feel like I am stuck with doing Super White eggshell on my walls to give an even color across the living room and kitchen.

Have you considered the possibility of not doing white. It isn't always the best choice, especially with homes that lack natural lighting. White really needs light to look good, as it is derived from the reflection of light.

Please note that most of the white on white pictures on Houzz and design magazines have lighting that generally doesn't work well in the average home, so that beautiful white on white look becomes elusive.

You may be better off picking mid toned colors for the walls and letting the trim work as a beautiful contrast to the colors that are rich enough to stand up against the shadows.

Thanks Jennifer. Do you have any recommendation? I’ve tried Swiss Coffee, Dove Wing, Gentle Cream, White Dove, and Indian White. II’m thinking I would like a very light greige but on the beige side

Just re-read your suggestions on November Rain and Pale Oak. I will check those. Gray Owl has too much light blue for me

@HU-969855738

I was terribly busy yesterday and didn't get the opportunity to respond to you.

The three colors I picked out when I made my suggestions were very different undertones, but were meant as examples of the depth of color.

There are two factors that go into finding the perfect color that are really difficult to do via the internet. One is that color preferences are extremely personal and two, colors have to be looked at as a collection of colors.

It must be 25 or 30 years ago when I came home to Pennsylvania for Christmas. Back then, when my mom was still alive, the entire family gathered at her house for Christmas Eve. It was quite the celebration and we all took pains to find the perfect outfit. My sister Betty lived here in Pennsylvania, Susie drove in from New Jersey and I flew in from California.

Apparently there was one outstanding velvet pant suit sold across the US that season. My two sisters and I had all bought it.

I have ivory skin and dark sable brown hair and dark brown eyes. I bought the deep Christmas Red.

Susie has olive skin and golden brown hair and brown eyes. She bought it in deep Emerald Green.

Betty has dark blond hair, fair skin and hazel eyes. She bought it in deep Navy Blue.

We obviously have very similar taste, but our coloring is not the same and our homes reflect these same differences. We all live in Pennsylvania now, but Betty's home is decorated in a contemporary style and her color palette is soft beige and pastels.

Susie has a tudor home with an eclectic mix of Antique and Industrial furnishings with a fall color palette, deep oranges, golds, browns and greens.

My home is an MCM home with MCM teak furnishings. I am renovating, but my color palette is being pulled from the colorful slate entry (called Red/Purple/Green slate).

Walls have not yet been painted, but here is a picture that shows the entry tile (with drywall dust):

I am using a lot of reds, teals and gray purples (my final decor will not include a paint sprayer on the hearth).

To know what will work for you we need to understand what your style is and what colors make your heart sing. What are you using with the Super White trim?

Wow! Beautiful! Thinking of going with White Sand for walls with the Super White Trim

I think that will work much better than the off whites you were trying. Just enough color to give you great contrast with the trim and not go drab in your shadows.

did u ever end up doing simply white on walls and super white trim i have super white trim with classic gray walls and really don't love. for some reason the gray looks yellowy

HU-969855738... what did you end up painting your walls with? I also have BM Super White trim in semi gloss throughout our house which worked fine when none of my walls were white. Now I'm painting almost every room white because I want a more modern look. I painted our mudroom and stairwell to the basement BM Decorators White which looks good with the Super White trim, but too white for the whole house. Then I painted BM Simply White eggshell on the walls in my two daughters' bedrooms. It looks great there. Very bright and modern and clean. But when I put the same combination in my front entry and hallway to upstairs, the Simply White looks very yellow in contrast to the super white trim. I think it is because the entry and stairwell has little to no natural light, and the entry light is yellow in tone. I'm trying to live with it for a while. I might change out the lightbulbs and see if that helps. In the master bedroom, which gets a lot of natural light, I painted the walls SW Alabaster, which looks great with the BM super white trim. I now have to paint our kitchen/family room, which has the same lighting of the MBR. A large room with lots of super white trim that I don't want to repaint. I have a can of Simply White leftover but am thinking I should buy two gallons of Alabaster (or the BM White Dove, which is essentially the same) and take a loss on the extra can of Simply White. I prefer the thickness of BM paint to SW, and find it easier to paint with. I think SW is looser and splatters and drips more.