Floridarose: You asked why I removed 'Crepuscule' and its supporting pergola . . . When, almost 18 yrs ago, we selected a site to build this home, the agent asserted that the towering pines on one side of the property were "mature". I assumed that meant they would grow no taller. What a naïve assumption THAT proved to be. We planted other trees, as did a neighbor. Portions of the property that once were very sunny gradually became shaded during much of the day -- ie, increasingly inhospitable to the roses that once grew so happily in those areas. So there you have it . . . 'Crepuscule' wasn't the only casualty, but it certainly was the most prominent one. Come spring, the side garden where the pergola stood will be planted with Southern Indica azaleas ('George L Taber' and/or 'Mrs GG Gerbing'), and probably a few other shade-tolerant plants. Nearby, beds behind a stone retaining wall will be home to a mass planting of Camellia sasanqua 'Marge Miller', the first-ever trailing camellia discovered in Australia that, at long last, is now available to American gardeners. Several years ago, a group of local water colorists came here on a spring weekend to paint 'Crepuscule' doing her riotous thing on her pergola. I hounded one of those artists mercilessly until he finally caved-in and sold his painting to me. Now that my 'Crepuscule' exists only as a fond memory, and as the subject of that wonderful water color painting, I'm more glad than ever that I was such a persistent nudge. PS: LOL -- You're right, Carol. Sure didn't anticipate such a lively exchange among rose folk regarding social mores and taboos vis-à-vis incest.

Thank you Melinda, BelleGallica and Ingrid for your replies. Melinda - your BN is looking fabulous! Well done! And Belle Gallica, yes, I do find the reports about thorny-ness and notoriously unreliable. Another rose I've ordered - Cl. Devoniensis - has been described as 'almost thorn free' as well as 'a thorny devil', so I guess I'll just have to wait and see. Although lack of thorns would be a bonus, the most important things for me in this space would be colour, repeat and fragrance, as it's a fairly prominent spot in my yard. Ingrid - thanks for your input regarding summer exposure. The spot I have in mind for MIP and MEC will receive a lot of sun in summer too, but I've found that bourbons in my yard (well, to be fair, I only have one bourbon - Kathleen Harrop) need plenty of sun to overcome disease, mainly powdery mildew. I don't know how my climate compares to yours, but I live in an elevated location with average summer temps of between 70 and 80 degrees F in summer, with only about 3 weeks worth of days in the 100s. We also get about 12 days of rain each month over summer, with yearly rainfall between 1000-1500mm (40-60 inches) per year. Which is great for my water bill, but it can also lead to disease. So I know some of the blooms will crisp during the really hot periods, but I think overall a sunnier site for mildew-y roses would be preferable. What do you think?

poorbutroserich, I have yet to try a noisette. I have a few bourbons, a handful of hybrid perpetuals and a handful of Austins. I am interested in trying Noisettes but I am so unfamiliar with many of them and their growth habits etc. I fear most white roses in the intense heat areas as many of the blooms just do not stand up to it and burn. I have heard that Bolero and Kronprinzessin Victoria are heat tolerant. I had ruled out purple in this spot that will get a lot of summer heat because for some reason I had likened its performance to lavender, which I just cannot grow other than in a partial shade and morning sun only area or it just looks awful. I do not know why I made that assumption. I can only guess it is due to the horrid look of most lavender roses during the summer. Nanadoll, I purchased a Young Lycidas bareroot on Dr. Huey that will arrive this winter because I could not resist the beauty of it. It is going in a little micro climate I created in the front yard, but the back yard... I think it would look great next to MIP but I wish I knew it would survive and thrive. I am thinking that if the one in the front yard performs well, I might move the Pleasure to a pot or gift it, and plant a Y.L.i n its place. I really like the floppy canes and nodding heads in the right garden application. I find it very charming. Ingrid, La France is beautiful! How well does it hold its color during the summer?

On the subject of nurseries. My experience of nurseries is years old and may not still be valid, but, way back in 2006, Nino San Remo had the most confused offerings of old roses I've ever seen in any nursery. They may have improved, and also I don't know about their modern offerings. The plants were always good, just way too frequently the wrong variety. La Campanella has new owners and I don't know whether they know their stuff, but in its day, La Campanella was one of the best rose nurseries anywhere, particularly for once-flowering old roses, of which the nursery offered many rare varieties. I hope the new management keeps up the high level of quality. I've heard good things about S'Orrosa but have never ordered from them. About the varieties under discussion here, I don't have much to say. The Bourbons and I don't get along, though I have 'Louise Odier' and am rather fond of it, though it doesn't do well for me. This is probably my fault, poor soil preparation, not the rose's. Mine doesn't rebloom, however, like bart bart; I don't water after the first year. One thing to mention about LO: she has quite ornamental hips, large, glossy red-orange, with persistent black sepals. Of course the gardener must resist the temptation to deadhead, and probably be willing to renounce a second flowering I don't recall LO being particularly prone to blackspot. A thought: would you Italian gals be interesting in a cutting exchange next fall, perhaps in October? I need to get back to propagation. Cuttings can be sent through the mail: I used to exchange quite a few this way, and got a good many roses as a result. I think I would be particularly interested in Teas and Chinas. Let me know what you think.