I think it would be pretty in your windows! I will eat most greens, but do tend to kick the frisee out of my salads. Pffft. You're supposed to do something as it matures to keep the center white. What makes a seed "heirloom"? I thought Tres Fines was being grown all over the place?

I grow year round indoors, a rotation of 25-30 varieties of greens. Salad/greens for every day...

Recently, a month ago-ish, I started about 75+ greens including a few frisee/endive varieties. It really depends on what you want. A full head needs lots of room. Perfect conditions. DTM is perfect conditions, good soil, good sun, not too much rain, way too hot is a bust. Then you need shade. 4-6 hours sun when temps get above 75.

Nothing on a seed packet reflects your personal growing conditions.

Seeds are cheap. Get a dozen seeds in a 4inch pot and learn from that. If you want to grow some salads to pick outer leaves over a few months all spring/early summer in a small container, start seeds now and pot up 6-8 good baby 3inch starts in a 1-2 gallon pot or two.

Get seeds going now. The only way to learn your environment.

I'm not an ignorant gardener, sleeve. My question was regarding this specific variety since others I saw were listed at 65 days.

plllog, an heirloom designation indicates that a plant can be open-pollinated and it will come true from seed. I.e., vs a hybrid. Typically, at least 7 growing seasons are required with consistency before something can be considered stable enough to be OP, and I once read that an OP variety must be around for 30 years before it's considered an heirloom, but that's debatable.

I've grown frisee for years. They do best with a late summer planting for fall harvest. Very fast growers, but they will bolt fast with spring planting.

Anyone waving a new packet of seed, from a first year gardener to a seasoned grower with 20+ years, are usually intelligent and interesting, far from 'ignorant'. We are all students. That's what makes gardening so interesting.

Your question wasn't very specific. Your zone, etc. Or the seed supplier since dozens of varieties fall under 'Frisee'.

'Frisee' is a type with many varieties in the family of chicories/bitter greens. Some will do well early spring through mid summer depending on your climate. Most do best started indoors for a late summer/fall planting. Some are self blanching and compact. The 'frillies' cover the pale sweet interior.

20 years ago I grew 'Tres Fine Frisee' from LeJardin back when they had 25Cent seed packets. It was excellent. I've never had one like it since. Every few years I try a few more. None of mine have a dtm. 'Start early indoors for a spring-early summer harvest if your climate is cool, hot temps in spring provide some shade, etc...'

Fresee will be in window boxes all over NYC next week because they can handle a bit of frost if fully grown. But those people have 'window box gardeners' that buy greenhouse grown plants started 2-3 months ago. I doubt the owners even know its edible, lol. Its grown for its beauty.

PM, thanks for the definitions! I was confused with the old timey seeds they collect for seed banks (which are likely also "heirlooms"). Seeds are important. :)

I tried to find out more about the centers. I"m not sure why a white center is desirable. I couldn't find what happened if you don't, though I think bolting might be part of it. They were talking about tying up the plants or putting hats on them. ;)

gad, sleeve, I had originally listed all kinds of info about zone, etc., but then decided it was too wordy and it really didn't make a difference because in my head I was asking about this one variety vs other endive/frisee -- meaning it would all be relative on my question about whether it really is extra early.

yes, plllog, they call it blanching and it's commonly done with celery. Bolting isn't always a bad thing for a seed-saver like me. :) I find it curious that the instructions say to sow 40 seeds per foot, then never mention thinning. That spacing would keep them white! lol!

BTW: I found it fascinating to learn that people who breed tomato varieties to be OP can cut their time in half by teaming up with people in the opposite hemisphere. That way that can get two growing seasons packed into one year... hence the "7 growing seasons" to be considered stable ends up taking them only 3.5 years. :)

Thanks for the further info. I'm not a great gardener and our climate is so different from most of North America and Europe that a lot of the books don't apply. I have the local ones that are actually useful, but don't give much insight into the world of seeds or anything much applicable elsewhere. :) I just happened to know a teeny tiny bit about frisee (probably because I don't like it) and was interested in your project. So this is fascinating. I didn't know about "blanching" celery either. Why do we want the centers to be white? Interesting about the large number of seeds recommended. Do they, perhaps, have a high failure rate? I'm sure I'd learned that they're usually given a lot of space between plants. Or do the shoots join up and become the fuzzball?

Okay, I figured out that it's to be fancy, right? Like white asparagus? Which tastes like asparagus. I don't know if the celery hearts are softer because they're less developed or from being bunched up or if one brings on the other. But then the frisee. Maybe just for looks? I don't find the white any more tender or palatable but I also don't like it. But I can't help wondering if party hats would work and how awesome that would be...

The flavour is improved by blanching. White celery stalks are tastier, curly endive is nicer to eat , white asparagus is a different type. It isn't blanched green asparagus.

Oh this makes me remember a restaurant in NJ my grandmother loved but no one else in the family did. However they made a salad with frisée and thick chunks of bacon that was to delicious. I can’t reme the dressing but I like that too.

ok I am adding frisée to my seedlist.

Thanks, IC! For me, celery comes from the grocery store and there's flatter stalk and more curled stalk, but otherwise it's all the same. The fronds are light green and the hearts are pale yellow. The yellow hearts are tender and less flavorful than the stalks. What's it like when left on its own?

My mother, who is a terrific gardener who grew up in farm territory, told me when I was a child that white asparagus was the same as green but grown under a box (I think we were doing a farming unit in Science in school), so I was surprised to see what you said about the different type and googled it. This was in the first articula that came up:

"White asparagus grows from the same plants that produce green spears. The asparagus remains white because the spears don't receive sunlight, so they don't produce green chlorophyll."

Perhaps they use differing plants in France?

White asparagus is the same as green. The growers most likely have tested for the best variety to get the best product outcome. Yes, they cover to keep out the light.

In the garden I plant celery in a trench, then cover as they grow. On the kitchen deck I start celery from organic market 'ends'. Grows in a big massive mound about 18inches across and near 3 ft tall. I use the leaves and thin stalks all summer/fall. I do not blanch it.

Keeping plants from the sun in the garden is called blanching. Frisee can be covered with hats to tenderize/sweeten by keeping the core in the dark. Some varieties grow with a natural bushy top. Or you can tie up the outer leaves to keep out the sun.

Belgian endive is pale white/yellow by bringing it into dark storage.

Garden blanching and kitchen blanching are not the same. Italian escarole is bitter but sweetens once blanched in water or sautéed.

"Keeping plants from the sun in the garden is called blanching."

"On the kitchen deck I start celery from organic market 'ends'."

I learn something new here almost every single day. Thanks Sleeve!

Wow, your celery actually forms heads/stalks. I grow celery, but no matter the variety down here it all grows like cutting celery. The flavor is good, though. Maybe too good, because it leaves me at a loss when making things like tuna salad, where I'm used to thinking of commercial celery as primarily providing bulk and just a bit of flavor.

Very interesting, thanks folks! Somewhere I had some lovage seeds, much like celery, but easier to grow, from what I've read. But now I must try some of these ideas, maybe a half barrel full of various greens, etc.

Thanks for the primer, Sleevendog. I got lost in your description of your growhouse stuff--not enough advance knowledge, I'm sure--but this was very clear and I feel like I understand now.

A bit tired postings not going through...

Just reporting back to say it's setting up to be a really lousy gardening season here. Lol! I had a set of unused window boxes so about a month ago I planted one with spinach and one with Frisee and put them on the covered back deck. A few days later, the squirrels dug out half the potting mix from the spinach box, so I piled it back in, watered it, and hoped. I have a handful of spinach seedlings just setting true leaves now. Only a handful of the Frisee seeds sprouted quickly, but they're just sitting there. It has rained every day for as long as I can remember, and we've been having highs in the 40s when our avg high now is supposed to be 68F. I usually plant out around Memorial Day, but it's been too cold and dark to even bring my seedlings outdoors yet. On the bright side, my tulips are blooming and lasting forever because they love it wet and cool. :O)

And, darn it, I'm growing two of BF's favorite hot peppers and the crowns showed weird damage. I just researched and see that it's from thrips. Also learned that peppers shouldn't be planted near onions, etc, because that will encourage thrips. And the Asian red lily beetles are decimating my lilies. :(

What's blooming here:. Pulmonaria, forget me nots, daffodils, tulips, bleeding heart, grape hyacinth, etc, and my peach, pear, and cherry trees are blooming at the same time! That's never happened before. Rhubarb can be picked today! :)

How are your gardens growing?

I started a 1010 36cell tray of mixed lettuce, greens, mid February, indoors. Still snow on the ground. They take some time. 6 weeks or so then potted up. I've been harvesting salad for a month now...outer leaves. Around that 6 week time I started another tray that is now needing up-potting. Started another tray last weekend. I rarely direct seed salads. Maybe some mesclun in succession in the garden starting next week maybe. They get covered with a board to avoid critters and prevent wash out in storms. Keeps the seed shaded as well and damp but not too wet.

pm ...you can pinch the tops of the pepper plants ... it makes a sturdier, more robust plant and don't set it back that much. And you can save pepper plants from year to year ...

Bragu, yes, I've grown some hot peppers in pots for years -- bringing them inside for winter, of course. :) I've never pinched the tops. In this case, I've washed all of the pepper plants and will now keep a watch on them. It's so wet here that it's beginning to feel like there will never be a time when we can plant out this year. Everything may be staying in pots. :p

I grew endive in the past and I think it was Tres Fine - from Pinetree.

My problem with it was the deeply cuf, frilly leaves were hard to clean and would get a lot of damage from sucking insects like thrips and leafhoppers. I probably should've mulched and it may've been too hot. The sucking insects are only a problem in hot weather.

I love endive and chicory, but now I stay away from growing greens with frilly or savoyed leaves, because I hate cleaning and prepping them.

I've grown that variety and a few other varieties of frisee as well. It is extremely cold tolerant - fall plantings in low tunnels have survived various "polar vortexes" in the mid-Atlantic when nothing else did. But, it will not tolerate heat at all and bolts quickly. I just picked and/or pulled the last head over the weekend. Some had bolted and went directly to compost, the others were fine. I chop the bottom inch or so off to separate the leaves and then completely immerse it in water in the wash tub, before lifting it out pinning it dry. If it's really muddy, I might wash it twice. We love, love, love salade lyonnaise (or bacon and egg salad as we call it). Frisee is basically the same thing as escarole and can be used interchangeably. This year, we blanched, chopped and froze a bunch of it (one cannot eat salade lyonnaise every day even if you can eat it multiple times a week). It's great in recipes calling for bitter greens of any kind (though it's not particularly bitter). We've been using it in the "Utica greens" recipe from the NYT cooking site.