If you switched the fridge and stove, you might be able to create a longer countertop between the sink and stove, which is the primary prep space.

Sorry I don't know how to reply directly. @Rantontoo - as the person who cleans in the house (the wife ends up doing most cooking, I clean), I really want as big of sink as possible, I hate the big cooking dishes that bang the edge of the sink when cleaning.

One other thing to note. The "wall" close to the stove is an out door wall. A patio door starts approx where a little bit after where the wall appears to end (the wall continues to the door).

@emilyam819. Thank you. I will pass it on to the boss/wife!

What if you moved the pantry and oven cabinets to the end of the other wall. Then put the range to the right of the fridge. Then the dishwasher can stay where you show it. Your kitchen isn't really large enough to require a prep sink if you go with a large sink. Then use the prep sink space for larger recycling or composting bin.

Island:

You only have room for 3 seats as the island is right now. For counter-height seating, you need:

• 24" of linear space per seat
• 15" of clear leg/knee overhang space, at a minimum
• Seats cannot share corners -- two people cannot share leg space!

So your island, before accounting for counter overhangs in front of cabinets/appliances:

• Long Side:
  -- 3 seats = 72" (6')
  -- Add to that the 15" of seating overhang and
  -- You need 72" + 15" = 85" width for the island
• Short Side:
  -- 1 seat = 24"
  -- Add the 24" refrigerator drawers on the short side and
  -- You need room for the ref drawers + the seat, so a minimum of 24" + 24" = 48" depth for the island

An example of seating at corners:

(Yes, it shows 5 seats with a different setup for cabinets...this is just an example of how to handle the corners. The red outlines around the cabinets are doors on cabinets under the overhang or decorative doors/end panels on the back or sides of cabinets under the overhang)

===========================

Counter overhangs in front of cabinets/appliances:

• Counters generally overhang cabinet boxes by 1.5". So, if the cabinet depth is 24", then the counters will be 25.5" deep.
• Note that cabinet depth is for the cabinet boxes only, the depth does not include doors (stick out approx 1" from the box) and counter overhangs (approx 1.5" from the box)
• The same overhang is used in island an peninsula seating.
• The overhang protects the cabinets and the doors/drawer fronts from spills/drips on the counters. By extending past the cabinet boxes & drawer fronts/doors, spills/drips are directed down to the floor, not down the front of the cabinets.

===========================

Aisles:

First, minimum work aisle widths:

• 42" for a one-person Kitchen
• 48" for two or more people working in the Kitchen at the same time (prepping, cooking, cleaning up, unloading the DW).
• When you have children, they will be wanting to help in a very short time and you will be teaching them how to help in the Kitchen -- all chores. It surprising how quickly children grow up and are ready to help!

• Aisles are measured to/from the items that stick out into the aisle the farthest -- counter edges, appliance handles, etc. Aisles are not measured to/from cabinet boxes. As noted above, cabinet boxes do not include the counter overhangs, appliance handles, etc.

In your layout above, your aisles are not measured correctly. They are measured cabinet box-to-cabinet box and, in some cases, not even that!

For example:

Aisle b/w the island and the sink/range wall:

• The 40" aisle in your layout is being measured b/w the cabinet boxes, not b/w the island's counter overhang (1.5") and the the range handle (~3")
• This aisle is at least 4.5" narrower than 40"
• 40" - 1.5" - 3" = 35.5" aisle. Much too narrow! (See above about minimum work aisle widths)
• Even in front of the sink, the aisle is 3" narrower -- the 1.5" counter overhang on the island and the 1.5" counter overhang in front of the sink base. 40" - 1.5" - 1.5" = 37"

Aisle b/w the island and the refrigerator:

• If your refrigerator is a counter-depth, then it will stick out into the aisle approx 6" farther than the cabinet boxes. So, in front of the refrigerator, the aisle is really 41" - 1.5" counter overhang on the island - 6" for the refrigerator handle
• 41" - 1.5" - 6" = 33.5" Again, too narrow!

Aisle b/w the island and the tall cabinets and steam oven

• Note that the place the aisle is being measured from is inside the oven, not from the handle!

===========================

Refrigerator:

Counter-depth refrigerators must stick out past all surrounding cabinets, walls, counters, etc. -- assuming you would like to be able to open the doors fully for full access and cleaning without having to pull the refrigerator out from the wall!

Because of this, when a manufacturer states a refrigerator is "cabinet depth", they really mean the refrigerator box/carcass is cabinet depth without the doors and handles!

I mention this b/c it looks like you are not accounting for the added depth of the refrigerator. The doors and handles must stick out past the finished end panels and the tall cabinets next to it.

Trash, compost, recycling...I think a "recycling center" will be the most useful for you. See some examples here:

• 24" wide base cabinets, 4 bins: https://www.rev-a-shelf.com/rev-pages/product-listing.aspx?CategoryFilterID=44

• Corner susan (36" x 36"), 3 bins: https://www.knapeandvogt.com/rrc-series? (this is much cheaper on Amazon!)

• Or, get a 2-bin + 1 bin, something like this:
  2-bin with possible compost short bin: https://www.rev-a-shelf.com/p-485-double-top-mount-inset-wood-waste-containers.aspx

• Or, a standard 2-bin trash/recycle pullout (18"W cabinet) + compost pail under the sink

Recycling large items...you do not have room in your Kitchen to house large item-recycling. You're already rather short on cabinet space b/c of all the appliances you want (steam oven, refrigerator drawers, etc.). Unless you can break down large items to fit in one of the bins above, I think you're going to have to accept the fact that you may need to store them in the garage.

Where do you store your trash & recycling b/w pickup snow? We store ours in the garage and then cart the bins down a rather long driveway to the street. Is it a pain? Yes, especially in the rain, but I would not want to store the trash and recycling for a whole week inside the house. (Maybe you have daily pickups rather than once a week?)

I strongly recommend you read the Kitchens Forum's FAQs to better understand why there are issues with your layout:

The following was taken from the "New to Kitchens? Read Me First!" thread:

Kitchen Design Best Practice/Guidelines FAQ Threads:

FAQ: Kitchen Work Zones, What Are They?

• https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/5500762/faq-kitchen-work-zones-what-are-they

FAQ: Aisle Widths, Walkways, Seating Overhangs, Work/Landing Space etc

• https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/5500771/faq-aisle-widths-walkways-seating-overhangs-work-landing-space-etc

FAQ: How Do I Plan For Storage?

• https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/5500787/faq-how-do-i-plan-for-storage

Asking for layout help:

FAQ: How Do I Ask For Layout Help & What Information Should I Include?

• https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/5500789/faq-how-do-i-ask-for-layout-help-what-information-should-i-include

Humorous discussion of workflow and other layout topics:

Looking for layout help? Memorize this first.

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2699918/looking-for-layout-help-memorize-this-first

Thank you Buehi for all the comments.

I think we might remove the "4th" seat along the one side of the corner. How bad do you think it is to go ahead with our isle widths - we really don't have more space? Moving the island "down" to increase isle width between the sink and island will encroach on the dinning area.

I think we can shave an inch or two off the aisle with the fridge side on it. Thanks again for all your comments.

Aisle widths...I guess it depends on how you will feel if, when you're done, you come realize that you spend all that money for a cramped Kitchen. I don't know what your tolerances are now for being cramped, but I think once your children arrive, you will find it even worse.

In the end, this is your Kitchen and we're only giving you advice. So only you can make the final decision about narrow aisles. Personally, I would not want them b/c I know what it's like to have two children helping in the Kitchen or even just my DH cleaning up while I'm prepping & cooking.

FYI...I have 33" b/w the edge of my peninsula counter and my refrigerator handles -- it's a bottleneck at times b/c no one can pass when someone is in the refrigerator. My "pinch point" was the result of mis-measurement on my KD's part (one of many!) -- it was definitely not planned! (I had planned for 42")

Do you have a layout of the whole floor?

Looking at the measurements again and taking in the other comments, I think you should do, from right to left, pantry, fridge, dishwasher, sink, stove, tall oven (micro?) cabinet. Such a layout would not require a prep sink.

If you omit a cabinet, you can have a seat on the short side of the island. I switched the line-up on the prep side, so that the trash is shared by the clean-up zone. While the cook is working to the left of the prep sink, a helper could be loading or unloading the DW, if dishes are kept in the cabinets to the left of the clean-up sink. Pots and pans can be kept in the large drawers across from the range; you might consider having a wider prep sink, if the one drawn is not at least 18".

I also switched the pantry and fridge, and placed the fridge drawers under the steam oven (unless you plan to use the drawers specifically for drinks, which might be more convenient on the end of the island).

If the dining area is off to the right, you might also consider switching the window/sink/DW with the range, so that clean-up and dish storage are more separated from the prep and cooking tasks. ETA, I missed your response that the DR is at the bottom. Switching the sink and range would still work because it would be just as easy to access the clean-up area from either side--to set the table, a helper wouldn't be entering the prep/cooking triangle. The following plan is not as symmetric as the original, and depends on whether the window can be moved, of course.

Hi @ mama goose_gw zn6OH

Thank you for your comments! Questions for you:

In the first alternative you posted, the trash and dishwasher couldn't be open at the same time - we find that a little concerning thoughts?

We really like the ideas of the 2nd design. The dishwasher may ever so slightly block the patio door, which will open to the outside, any concerns there? EDIT: This isn't true - the dishwasher would be close but not block the patio door. When I try to edit my OP to note the patio, the site says webpage not found.

Regarding isle widths @Buehi has brought up many good points and now has us a little concerned, what are your thoughts on our isle widths? Would you extend the trash to be a little wider in this 2nd design to match the width of the fridge drawers which were previously in this area? Isle width there doesn't seem to matter as much to me as it isn't a "working isle" (in this 2nd design, no drawers open up that direction).

Hi @emilyam819 thank you for your response. Regarding plans, of entire floor our architect has a note on the plans produced that we shall not reproduce or share without his permission - this makes a little shy of posting.

To the right is a patio, to the bottom is a dining area. The family room would be to the bottom right (the patio wall goes down about the length of the island and then goes right.

Regarding your idea, when you say left to right do you mean starting at the bottom of the "L" or starting in the top left corner?

Hi @ Buehl - We Want SW Back Unconditionally

Thanks for your response (again) - really appreciate the effort you are putting into my home. We are limited for our kitchen by the space shown (i.e. house physical constraints). Without commissioning you to do a re-design of the kitchen, knowing that we can't get extra space, would you be willing to let me know what would you remove to gain isle widths? Thanks for any thoughts?

What if you just take the inches out of an island cab?

No, I said right to left. Because order of operations in a kitchen is fridge to sink to stove.

I started this last night but it got late, so I didn't finish it. Here it is (see the detailed analysis in the next post):

Layout #1:

Layout #1 Zone Map:

Detailed Analysis

First, the Kitchen Workflow. The workflow for the vast majority of Kitchen work is as follows:

Refrigerator --> Sink --> Workspace --> Range/Cooktop

Or, as Marcolo puts it: Ice.Water.Stone.Fire (see the "...Memorize this..." thread linked earlier in this thread)

• Refrigerator -- the location where butter, milk, eggs, veggies, fruit, frozen items, and other things needed to prepare a meal are stored.
• Sink -- the water source; used to wash/rinse veggies, fruits, etc., and as a cooking ingredient. This is also where you will be washing your hands throughout the meal prep process.
• Workspace -- counterspace adjacent to the sink. This should be at least 36"W, but 42" or more is much better. This should also not contain your DW so someone loading/unloading the DW or cleaning up won't be in your way while you're trying to prepare a meal. It's also so you don't have to dodge/move around dirty dishes sitting on the counter. If this is your only sink, then your Prep Zone will be on one side of the sink and the Cleanup Zone on the other. If that's the case, the Prep Zone side should also be the side the Range is on.
• Range/Cooktop -- where you put your food to apply heat and cook.

Prep Zone discussion:

I'm assuming you want the cleanup sink under the window and, since you have so little base cabinet space, I agree with you -- it allows you to have more upper cabinet storage space.

Key items in a functional Prep Zone:

• Water source (sink),
• Counter space -- 36" or more of contiguous counter space
• Close to the Cooking Zone
• Easy access to the refrigerator

I recommend a prep sink in the island. Why? Because there is very little functional workspace b/w the range and perimeter sink. Yes, there's room b/w the sink and refrigerator, but that's also where the Cleanup Zone is with the DW and dish storage. While that might not be an issue if the person prepping/cooking is also the person cleaning up -- and that person is always the only person who preps, cooks, and cleans up -- that is rarely the case when there are two or more people living in the home. Add children to the mix and it will definitely be an issue!

I know some people think the need for a prep sink is dependent on the size of the Kitchen, but that is not the case. The need (or no need) for a prep sink is dictated by the design of the Kitchen -- in particular, how the work zones are arranged. Look at the available counter space, the arrangement of the appliances, and the overall workflow within the design -- that is what determines the usefulness of a prep sink. Another consideration is the need for multiple Prep Zones.

[Sometimes, two "primary" Prep Zones are needed (usually b/c several people are frequently involved in food prep) -- in those cases it often works better to have two separate workflows -- but each should still follow the overall flow.]

Cooking Zone

This zone should be the most protected from traffic. You are dealing with hot food, heat from the range/cooktop, and carrying the food to/from the range/cooktop. You do not want to have to dodge traffic going through your Kitchen to get to the backyard or other traffic.

Pantry Storage

You have two pantry cabinets -- 12" wide and 18" wide for at total of 30". They're split up to allow you to have more room along the left wall and create the necessary "filler" b/w the wall and refrigerator.

Steam Oven & Microwave

I put the steam oven and MW drawer in the same tall stack. The MW drawer is just below the counter and the steam oven is above the counter with 12" to 18" b/w them.

Above the steam oven is "tray" storage -- storage for cookie sheets, cooling racks, muffin tins, roasting pans, etc. I wouldn't put cutting boards, pizza stones, or other things that would hurt you if they fell while you were putting them away or getting them out, but just about anything else that's long and fairly shallow would work there. I'm including a picture of mine below (it's above my double ovens). Note that the items are stored so the length goes into the back -- you only need to grasp the front to remove/replace, so it's not an issue. I also have a place to store a griddle and long platters, again, they're store the long way back. They're below the trays b/c you only need to grasp the bottom front of the "tray" items. We're a tall family, so the platter "shelf" is above all our heads -- I'm the shortest (5'10") and it's at my face-level.

+++++++++++++++++++++

Additional comments have been added by the OP and a great idea proposed by Rantontoo, so I think I'll stop here and work on another layout with the new information and ideas.

I really like Buehl’s plan but would consider one change to be able to add more inches of prep space between the sink and cooking surface. Add one large pantry cab between the fridge and wall to eliminate the pantry cab on the other side of the L. This would allow the cooking surface to move down to add more prepping space to the prepping “gold” zone. I might add some inches to the cab between the oven cab and cooking surface. It looks like Buehl has 18” there which is certainly adequate, but 21-24” is awesome if you spread things out as you cook.

Is there any nearby closet/wall space for a built in beverage center? I, too, looked at adding a beverage fridge or drawers. Ultimately, I was unwilling to lose the needed storage space. I honestly do not miss the space in my old full-depth fridge.

Great idea Rantontoo! I'll work one up that uses your idea! (When I'm done with the detailed analysis above.)

I would still opt for narrower pullout pantry cabinets, though, b/c they are so much easier to use than wider ones that have multiple roll out tray shelves (ROTS) and multiple doors to open when looking for something. With pullouts (shelves attached to the door) no wider than 18", you pullout everything at one time when you open the door and can scan the shelves for what you're looking for. You can see everything b/c (1) the entire shelf is pulled out and the entire depth is visible and (2) the shallower width allows you to see everything width-wise -- nothing can hide from you! The space you're looking at on each shelf is only 18" x 24" -- easy to see it all!

With the wider pantries with ROTS, you have to crane your neck to see everything above the counter and you have to move things around trying to see everything in ta 24" depth x 24" (or wider) width. Things can easily hide from you!

And those 36" wide pantries with the complicated swing outs? You lose a lot of storage to the mechanisms and the various shelves and associated spacings.

To the OP (no user name, so I cannot call him/her out by name!)...

Do you have a basement? If so, consider putting in a second small refrigerator in the basement for overflow. We did that when our children were young and it worked out very well!

Unless you live in a moderate climate year-round or your garage is conditioned space (meaning heat and A/C), I would not put one in the garage. Higher and lower extremes of temperatures can cause issues for a refrigerator.

Thank you everyone. We are reviewing so many detailed comments. I never thought we would get such wonderful feedback - thank you.

One note- the window CAN move. It just can't get any bigger than it currently is and needs to remain on that wall (note that the "wall" on the right is patio and has light too) - so it can move left or right. The patio door starts a couple inches before the island starts ( said in a prior post the dishwasher in may block the door in mama goose_gw zn6OH redesign comment - I was wrong -it wont)

Will respond but I wanted to note the window can move and thank everyone.

Buehl: I do not have personal experience with rollout pantry shelves since I opted for reach-ins which I preferred, but I was thinking a single door pull-out pantry...can 21” still be a single door?

"...the window can move..."

Ah! That makes a huge difference!

ETA: I'm not going to be able to work on it anymore today, sorry! Family plans!

I don't know if they make 21" tall pullout pantries, but I think that would be verging on being too wide as things can start to get lost. I had 18"D shelves in our old Kitchen in a step-in pantry and those shelves were too deep -- I lost things all the time. The difference b/w my old pantry and the pullouts is access...I could only access the front. With pullouts, you can see all sides except the back, but since it's narrow and it pulls out, you can still see everything.

Thanks again everyone. Not that we expect more designs but if people are still willing I thought I would say the following update. If not, lots for us to think about already posted - thank you.

One more update, if it greatly helped we would invest in a 48" wide built-in Fridge (not full depth or counter depth). This would remove the fridge drawer. Overall it is a more costly option so less ideal.

@ Buehl - We Want SW Back Unconditionally we do have a basement we could put a bar fridge. Just afraid of leftovers and everyday stuff being sent down there. Our climate is cold - garage is out of the question.

Our interior designer was stating that that smaller drawers (i.e. less then 24" wide) don't allow for as much flexibility to put bigger items in. I understand her, but we currently have a majority 18" drawers and they work fine. I would be hesitant to go smaller.

@ rantontoo Thank you for the comments. There is no nearby spot for a beverage center. Downwards of the picture is the dining area, but it is across a hallway from the living room. I wish I could just post the floor plan.

Are you concerned about lack of storage space? We might be convinced about shirking the island at the cost of the set of cupboards on the bottom side, but at the gain of larger isles.

I think it would help if you posted a sketch of the entire floor. (Waiting for food at restaurant!)

HU-914370505, I've been gone all day, and just found your questions. Even though you've had lots of great suggestions since then, I'll try to answer.

In the first alternative you posted, the trash and dishwasher couldn't
be open at the same time - we find that a little concerning thoughts? It depends on the model of your DW and the length of the door--they range from about 25" to 27" when fully open, so if the aisle is 40" counter-to-counter, then you have a couple more inches cabinet-to-cabinet. If the DW door is 25" from the cabinet face, then you could open the trash pull-out up to 17" (or 15" if the DW door is 27"), which should be enough to scrape a plate. Or scrape into a bowl, and empty into the trash when the DW door is closed. Recyclables in the back bin would also have to wait until the DW door is closed. But even a couple of inches added to that aisle would help, if you can spare them from the dining area.

... what are your thoughts on our isle widths? Although I wouldn't build narrow aisles into a new house, when I remodeled the kitchen in my old house I had to settle for 40" to 42" work aisles, and believe it or not, only 36" behind bench seating at the island. The island has a 16" seating overhang, which helps, and there are shallow (10"deep) uppers on the cabinet run behind the seating, so plenty of shoulder space for someone passing behind the bench. We are all tall and thin, so no one has trouble walking behind someone seated at the island.

My DW opens into a long aisle, similar to the second plan I posted, and the range is similarly overlapped by the island, so I have 'step back' space in the long aisle. The fridge is also overlapped by half, so there is space to open the door fully and bend over far enough to rummage for that jar of olives that got shoved to the back. It works for us, and there are often three adults and two kids in the kitchen, just before a meal is served. When I yell, "Oven door is open!" everyone (even the 2yr old) knows to stay clear.

Although buehl posted a well thought out plan (as always :), I like the range on the back wall for several reasons. 1) Venting will be easier, 2) the range/hood makes a nicer focal point than the fridge, and 3) on the short wall, the fridge is a couple of steps closer to the DR. The second plan I posted above is still in my desktop shortcuts--I'll post it again so you don't have to scroll up:

The island. Putting 4 there would be quite a tight squeeze but if you choose that route I would say smaller - no back - stool and be prepared to REMOVE one.

@ mama goose_gw zn6OH thank you for all the comments and responses! Will review with the wife.

@ Buehl - We Want SW Back Unconditionally sorry i missed you. I decided i would sketch the floor. I didn't want to post our actual drawings due to a note on them saying we can't reproduce without permission. If you are providing more feedback, I hope this helps, and thank you!

Mid America Mom - Yes thank you. Based on discussions today we are sold - don't put a 4th on the short side. We may choose to buy a 4th chair for the long side and squish, but if its a pain - 3 is fine. Only ideally eating at the island when making food for kids and one parent will be standing.

One thing not noted in the sketch - stairs to downstairs are under stairs to upstairs, i.e. door is right by the kitchen wall. If you click sketch it gets bigger.