The manufacturers print instructions for a reason.........................

Millworkma, so would you say I was correct and they were installed incorrectly?

You say "Landark" ... do you mean Landmark? Have you looked at their specific installation instructions on their website for the material you selected?

"Who am I to question someone that does this every day?"

If they are not following manufacture's instructions, you have every right to question what they are doing. If Landmark Bluestone is your material, there are requirements regarding the minimal spacing (10mm over sand) needed between tiles as well as the use of spacers.

"Millworkma, so would you say I was correct and they were installed incorrectly?"

Correct.

Thanks for confirming that I was correct that the installation process for the Landmark porcelain pavers was incorrect. I thought I was losing my mind. Great...now I will have to deal with getting this mess fixed.

jellytoast, yes I have looked at the instructions, but apparently not the guy who installed them :-(

I misunderstood your post and thought you had said the pavers were installed over sand. What were they actually installed over?

Jellytoast, I believe the pavers were installed on 3/4 minus and a layer of sand but without spacers and with a joint of only 1/18 inch (2mm), so the Polymeric sand didn’t fit into the joints. The landscaper said he was very fustrated since he did not have any issued in 8 years he said. He said there are different opinions on how to do this, but I would think that the manufacturers instructions should be the better choice. I just doubt that he has installed porcelain pavers very often and thought they can be installed like any other pavers. I talked to Landmark today too and they said it was installed incorrect and that the pavers need a flexible sand and not a cement grout or else it will crack like I suspected. They also said that they highly recommend the use of spacers. Now the landscaper does not want to fix it, but offered to refund me some money. I am afraid it will be a nightmare to find someone to fix this. I will call back Landmark on Monday to see if they might have a recommendation for me. This is a disaster.

Have you paid him in full, or just partially? Is the job correctable using the existing pavers? Did you ask Landmark about removing the grout haze?

I have paid him fully since the haze didn’t show until after the pavers dried and it appeared that he had completed the job; however, I complained about the results as soon as I saw the haze and saw that he used grout even though I specifically asked him not to a number of times. I did use a credit card, however, just in case so that I could dispute my payment if needed. He tried to correct the job twice and now here I am. I am not sure if the job is correctable using the existing pavers, although as per the Landmark representative it might be and the haze should come off if the right stuff is used. The landscaper that did the installation does not want to fix it though, although I told him the Landmark guy would assist him and would walk him through the process. I am afraid it will cost me more to find soomeone else to fix the mess. The landscaper initially said he would refund me some money or pay someone else to fix it, but later almost pendeld back a lititle. I am not sure what my rights are.

Traditionally in 'building law' (and the law of contracts) the original installer/professional needs to be given the FIRST attempt to correct a problem. If his/her attempt at the 'fix' is unacceptable or (in your case) wrong, then you have the right to find another professional to come in and 'fix the fix'. This would then be at the original person's expense.

Of course this is HIGHLY dependent on where you live...but in general this is the way it is done. You have given this person TWO (2) attempts to fix the issue without success. At this point, you will need to negotiate your way into some money so that you can go out and find/pay for someone else to deal with his/her mess.

A calm approach is the best approach. Feel free to remind the landscaper that they have an excellent reputation and that you chose them for their reputation. Let them know that this project seemed to be outside their comfort zone (porcelain vs stone) and that parting of the ways would be the best for everyone. Make it clear that you would be happy with a full refund for labour on the paver project (and if they charged you for materials to lay the pavers, make sure you get that back as well because they used the WRONG materials). Suggest this calmly and with sincerity that it is the "best for everyone" this way.

And then again mention their reputation. It should get their attention...they should be able to connect the dots without you having to "threaten" a negative review.

Thank you SJMcCarthy! I have been very patient and nice to him throughout the entire process and so has he as well. He seems very professional and I don’t think being unfriendly will help. However, he unfortunately is not familiar with installing porcelain pavers properly and neither is his staff. He still doesn’t see his mistake since he feels there are different opinions on how to install the pavers, but so far I could not find anyone that agreed with the way he had them installed.

Could I live with the installalation - sure, but the manufacturer literally guaranteed that I will have an issue with this installation in the long run, so I will not accept it as is. I will call back the Landmark representative and ask him for a recommendation and someone that really knows the product.

Hopefully I can find someone who is willing to take this on and able to fix this for me. I think I need to try to get a quote from someone to get an idea how much it will cost to start to negotiate with the first installer. Thankfully I have communicated all critical details via text message so that I can proof everything, but I really hope that the first installer will stick to his word. I am afraid this will cost him more than he is hoping. He does have a good reputation and I think he realized I am not a pushover, so I hope he knows he needs to do what is right.

They charged me for labor and materials. I am not sure if the pavers will not be damaged during the next fix and therefore I am not sure how much I would ask him to refund me for the pavers that I hope I will be able to get fixed d and reinstalled properly since you never know.

He still doesn’t see his mistake since he feels there are different
opinions on how to install the pavers, but so far I could not find
anyone that agreed with the way he had them installed.

I don't see where you need to find anyone other than the manufacturer. Perhaps you can point out these things to him from the installation instructions:

Caution: Never install pavers without the required 3/16 in spacers between all units

Never install pavers with porcelain to porcelain contact.

Jellytoast, yes I agree! The porcelain pavers do not (yet) have direct contact, but I measured the space of the joints again this morning and most only have 1/16 in in between them, so much less than every porcelain paver manufacturer says is necessary. I can’t wait to so see how this gets resolved. Thank you!

Hope you will post the outcome.

Jellytoast, I will!

That's awesome, Susanne! It's always nice when someone comes back to share their outcome. Even better when the outcome is positive.

Way to go Susanne! A little late is better than never. I'm so glad you were able to negotiate a great installation. Your willingness to "man manage" the team/installer has paid off. You were probably a project manager in another life!

So glad this worked! Now you have the spring/summer to look forward to.

SJ McCarthy...actually I do have a project management degree and work lots of projects at work, but who wants to do that after work too LOL. But yes, it has paid off :-). I am sitting on my patio as we speak...it will be an amazing spring/summer now! Thanks for your support when I needed it.

Hi Susanne,

Accidentally found your post, while researching a similar problem. I have installed Porcelain pavers (rectangular 19"x38" and 3/4" thick) and the masons who installed these did actually use the recommended spacers per manufacturer. So the spacing between the tiles is about 1/4". The first time we did use the Techniseal HP Netxgel polymeric sand (I have read that that was the best sand for this application and being that I was micromanaging the project I made sure they fllow all instructions). Still after the first winter (we live in NJ) the sand was not holding up, coming out etc. I blamed it on the wrong install during colder weather in November and decided to redo the sand. Took a few days to get the old sand out, clean everything and apply new sand - only this time we've used Allied Gator Tile sand (they have a polymeric sand meant for tiles, as it sticks better to the porcelain that regular sand meant for concrete pavers). Bottom line - same result. I don't even know if there is a solution. Maybe the joints are not deep enough and that the issue ? Any ideas ? You can send me an email to investgroup13@gmail.com nd we could connect if it's not too much trouble. I have a large patio - about 3000 sq ft, so already thinking to remove everything and install in wet laid over concrete, but that would be super expensive.

@Invest Group Hi, I am installing Daltile Commissary paver as a walkway. Was just browsing with the same questions. Called Daltile as well. There seem to be no proper answers. Please let me know if you have figured anything.

https://www.daltile.com/product/commissary. 

Mine is just a walkway to my patio with about 10 tiles. It says i can loose lay it. But it is moving all over the place.

https://digitalassets.daltile.com/content/dam/Daltile/website/resources/products/sales-sheets/commissary/DAL_SS_Xteriors_Commissary.pdf

My installer did not like the thin porcelain product to start with and said it doesn't have weight and will move. I was insistent because I loved the look. But now it is I told you so from his side and I have to look for solutions.

My pool contractor also installed porcelain pavers that I wanted but wouldn't follow mfr directions even though I taped them to the window. No spacers, and then he tried to use a compactor on them which is also not advised, and I had to run out and yell at him to stop. Idiot. So far the polymetric sand has been useless, i try to add more but it only fits a tiny amount so won't stay. Some were cemented to an existing concrete pad, so the whole patio can't be redone. My research shows the standard, GatorDust, has not been good quality lately, so I hope maybe another brand might harden better. My immediate challenge is a paver has sunk and rocks so it needs more base but I can't easily pull it out whole because there is no space to lift it... but I'm trying to figure that out. I have no spares at all, and none are available for purchase in a small quantity.

I think eventually I will leave the the cemented ones in place and spread the others out with grass in between. That's the look I wanted in the first place but they talked me out of it.