Thank you for validating what I am feeling!

oh hell no. your floors were already in place?? he came in and ruined them (basically)? Any good flooring person knows that factory finished engineered flooring can seldom be refinished properly.

I hope you have something in writing. I hope you have texts or emails of him admitting he erred. anything to show he ruined your floors.

I wouldn't pay him a dime. he wants you to pay for materials that were used to ruin your engineered wood floors? no.

tell me why you didn't call in a wood refinishing company instead of a contractor?? As you can see, he didn't know poo about wood refinishing.

I would call in a real floor refinisher and tell them what happened. then find out if they can fix it. if they can, advise bozo that he's going to pay for some of it. If the floors can't be fixed, advise bozo that he owes you new floors. Prob won't be the full amount because the floors were older?

I'm sure he's going to tell you to pound sand, so be ready to file something in small claims court. What you don't want is him attaching a lien on your property for failure to pay.

I would also lodge a complaint w/the state contractors board against his license.

How did you hire this guy? It just seems like if you had gotten other estimates that any knowledgeable flooring guy would have known what your floor was and discussed that in his quote. Did you not get any other estimates? I agree with the others- take him to court.

Did you actually hire a floor refinisher or just some guy that is a contractor. It sounds to me like the latter and what did your contract state .

Your questions are all right on point - I made plenty of errors in deciding to have him do the work. Because of the recent destruction caused by Hurricane Florence here in Wilmington, contractors are not taking any new jobs or either scheduling work months ahead. I closed on this house right after the storm and was determined to have the floors finished before moving in. This contractor had finished a few other projects for me successfully and professionally and I trusted his past experience with flooring to qualify him to do the work. Needless to say I didn't do my homework concerning the floors and now have learned a very valuable lesson.

I know Florence made a mess...I was in Atlantic Beach a few weeks ago. So frustrating that this made for bad timing on your house. But the contractor is fully responsible here. He owes you a fix, or new floors. Don't pay him a red cent.

Unless you forced him to do something, and he warned you in advance that the result might not be satisfactory, I don't think you owe him anything. If he wants to get paid he needs to make the floor acceptable. The contention that he "owes you a new floor" is rather ridiculous. If the floors were too thin to be properly refinished, you're out the time he took and he's out the money and time he spent. If the existing floor was unacceptable to you and was too thin to be refinished, you would have had to purchase a new floor. Trying to refinish a floor that's too thin doesn't make the refinisher liable to buy a customer a new floor.

If the floor does have enough wood to be refinished, you call a floor professional and pay them to refinish. You pay the contractor nothing and he owes you nothing.

"factory finished engineered flooring can seldom be refinished properly '

I'm not sure this statement has any basis in fact. We successfully and properly refinish factory finished flooring all the time. If it was "seldom" successful, we'd be out of business.

I always put the the disclaimer on proposals that "we assume suitable wood floor for refinishing". As someone with experience, I can often determine whether an existing floor has enough surface left for refinishing just by looking at the surface, but not always. When people are getting bids they generally don't want you to remove a molding or drill a hole to determine whether their floor can be refinished. Sometimes people decide to attempt refinishing rather than opting for more costly replacement. Since I'm experienced with the issue I know how to warn people and reduce my potential liability. Someone without experience probably wouldn't know to do this so it's unfair to hold them to the same standard. If I paid my lawn man to touch up paint on my house and he didn't warn me that the spots might show, that doesn't make him liable to paint the whole house when the retouched areas don't match the faded paint.

"The contention that he "owes you a new floor" is rather ridiculous. "

It's not. If he ruined her floor, how is it ridiculous to expect him to correct that?

"Someone without experience probably wouldn't know to do this so it's unfair to hold them to the same standard."

I disagree. If I have hired a person that has represented themselves as a professional, and bid a job as that professional, stating that they are qualified to perform a job, you are saying that I should expect and accept a sub-standard performance if they are lesser-experienced than another person. I think it's outright deceitful to represent yourself as someone qualified, when you know that you are not.

Someone without experience probably wouldn't know to do this so it's unfair to hold them to the same standard.

I don't agree. He shouldn't have represented himself as competent to assess and do the work if he was that inexperienced. He shouldn't expect to be paid like a flooring professional if he didn't have the knowledge to do the job, and he shouldn't escape liability for misrepresenting his skill level.

I always put the the disclaimer on proposals that "we assume suitable wood floor for refinishing"

I hope that you also thoroughly discuss with the homeowner whether the floor might not be suitable, and how it might turn out, so that they are making a fully informed decision.

Easy. There's two possibilities. Either the floor did or did not have enough thickness to be refinished.

1) If it did have enough to be refinished, both parties lick their wounds, the homeowner hires a real floor refinisher and pays them to refinish the existing floor. In this scenario the original finisher does not owe the homeowner a new floor. The homeowner paid once to get their floor refinished.

2) If the existing floor never had enough material to be refinished, yet the homeowner wanted it refinished, it would have never turned out right. If it would have never turned out right, the contractor didn't cause the floor to need replacement and therefore isn't liable to buy the homeowner a new floor. The contractor learns a lesson and the homeowner purchases the new floor they would have had to purchase anyway.

What I'm curious about is at what point during the project it was discovered that the floor was not solid hardwood and then at what point the OP and/or the contractor decided to double down and attempt to refinish the floor despite it not being suitable for refinishing.

No. 1) but now does it have enough surface for another refinishing attempt? Can it be fixed? If not, yes, a new floor from the guy that botched the first attempt is a reasonable expectation. 2) A new homeowner might not, and very likely does not, have any knowledge about the flooring in their new home, much less know anything about the ability to have them refinished. For this he would rely on the pro that he is looking to hire. So the homeowner might want them refinished because he is assuming that they can be refinished. It is the duty of the pro to tell him whether they can or can't. And you can't assume that the floor would have needed replacement anyway -- it might not have, but perhaps the new owner just wanted it to look brand new not realizing that that would not be possible.

Johnson Flooring Co Inc, again...if the contractor held himself out to be competent, and was not, that is not the homeowner's fault, in my book. Obviously she made a mistake in hiring him, but from what I have read, he presented himself as qualified.

"queenvictorian

What I'm curious about is at what point during the project it was discovered that the floor was not solid hardwood and then at what point the OP and/or the contractor decided to double down and attempt to refinish the floor despite it not being suitable for refinishing."

Well that's a good question. From her OP, it sounds like he just forged ahead and assumed the floors were solid hardwood.

"after all was said and done, it became clear that it was an engineered hardwood "

Kind of a knucklehead from the sound of it. He was clearly not qualified if he could not tell the difference.

I don't get that impression, which would explain the difference of opinion. I take it that the person who did the work isn't a full time professional floor refinisher. The OP wrote "contractors are not taking any new jobs" and she "was determined to have the floors finished before moving in". To me that means that the professionals that COULD be expected to give expert advice were busy and that she chose someone that had done some work for her before. There's no argument that he did a bad job but to claim he owes her a new floor is a stretch.

"to claim he owes her a new floor is a stretch."

Well I still disagree. Now if there was some sort of agreement like "hey I'll try this but I don't know if it's gonna work" - then I'd agree with you.

1) "but now does it have enough surface for another refinishing attempt?" Based on the statement that the sander didn't remove all of the finish, I'm making the assumption that he didn't remove enough wood to ruin a floor that could have been refinished.

2) Again I'm assuming the floor finisher doesn't do it full time and putting weight in the statement that the OP was determined to have the work done.

"if the contractor held himself out to be competent" and "from what I have read, he presented himself as qualified"

What do you read from the OP that leads to that opinion? Please quote it. I must have missed it. TIA

Johnson Flooring Co Inc I just noticed this in your previous post.

"When people are getting bids they generally don't want you to remove a molding or drill a hole to determine whether their floor can be refinished. "

That's just cray-cray. I mean, seriously. How on earth is one supposed to know the depth of the wood?

"What do you read from the OP that leads to that opinion? Please quote it. I must have missed it. TIA"

This is what she stated. To me, this reads as he presented himself as experienced and qualified.

" I trusted his past experience with flooring to qualify him to do the work"

"That's just cray-cray. I mean, seriously. How on earth is one supposed to know the depth of the wood?"

If someone is getting multiple bids, all bidders would assume the floor can be refinished. You're acting under the false assumption that every bidding process is black and white, neat and tidy. If I meet a designer, contractor or other proxy to price refinishing a floor, I might not be at liberty to examine the floor in depth so I make the assumption it can be refinished and state it on the proposal. If I'm meeting a homeowner that is contemplating refinishing, they may want to wait for pricing to allow someone to disturb their existing floor.

Most engineered flooring can be refinished at least once and sometimes twice depending. But if it has beveled edges or is scraped, its impossible to remove all of the original layer. So you usually had to redo it the same finish. I'd just send a check for $600 and see what happens. Sounds like you're due for a new floor when things calm down.

"trusted his past experience with flooring" is not the same as "he presented himself as qualified". I still see nothing written by the OP to support your contention.

FYI, "hardwood" is not the same as solid wood. An engineered floor made of hardwood is hardwood. Some engineered floor are nearly indiscernible from solid wood. Maybe it wasn't so in this case, but to make an assumption and then criticize based on your assumption, isn't reasonable.

Well we read things differently, clearly. And I know the difference in hardwood and solid - if that was directed at me. I would expect a "qualified" flooring re-finisher to be able to either know the difference, or know how to find out.

"If someone is getting multiple bids, all bidders would assume the floor can be refinished. "

And that is what I would call "cray cray". If a homeowner does not know what they have, and a flooring guy actually tells them than they have hardwood....I cannot fault the homeowner for that flooring person's screwup of treating a floor as something it was not. She stated that she relied on this guy's knowledge, and HE told her she had "hardwood" vs "engineered" - and if he didn't mean *solid* vs engineered, then what the heck would he have meant?

Unless there is information not being presented here, there is nothing that would indicate this not being the fault of the contractor. I would have to let small claims court tell me differently.

Johnson flooring,,,He does owe her new floors. and if you read what I wrote, you'll see where I said it should also be taken into account how worn/used/new/overall condition they are in, and deduct accordingly. (I said, 'prob won't be full amount because the floors were older" I assumed the OP would understand what that meant)

For him to ask for a 4600 dollar payment is ludicrous. for you to say "he owes nothing and neither does she" is equal nonsense. He ruined the floors. period. If he can't fix them to where they look like a refinished floor should, what? He should just say "oh sorry" and walk away??

As for my comment engineered floors are seldom refinished properly, I'm thinking of some of the cheaper brands of flooring. something on the thinner side. so perhaps I should have phrased my statement differently on that one. That being said, he didn't even know the difference until he started sanding. Obviously the guy has no business doing floors. He should have informed her beforehand that he's no expert.

No where did I understand OP as being in a hurry and forcing him to refinish her floors. I'm sure if he would have been up front with her, she could have waited for an actual professional to do it. After major floods, everyone wants their homes fixed ASAP. people have to understand that they may have to wait longer than normal for things to get fixed. If the wood floors were livable as is, then what's the rush?

It would be nice if OP posted pics of the floor before he touched them, and after so we could actually see what we're talking about.

OK...let's put to rest the OP's "timing" of the refinish. The OP clearly states:

"I closed on this house right after the storm and was determined to have the floorsfinished before moving in. "

OK...that ends THAT argument.

@ suejhayes Please post some photos of the before and after. I'm sorry you didn't get a nice looking floor. There might be things that can be done to make this better. But at this point, you should not be paying for a problem the contractor created.

determined to have them finished doesn't have to mean "I forced him to do it". does it? Unless she left out the part where he said, "i'm not so sure these can be done correctly " AND, "That's ok. I just want them done NOW!".

Yes, OP knows she screwed up. contractor guy also screwed up. He needs to fix her floors or pay someone else to do it. I just don't get why people think he gets a pass on this. Maybe having to pay for his mistake will teach him not to take on jobs he's not proficient in doing.

I'll also add that if these engineered floors only had one layer to refinish, the OP is now SOL. now what?

One no has really answered the original question. The guy admits its not a good result. He initially agreed to accept just $600 for materials. Then he submitted an invoice for the entire amount $4600 and asked to be paid a portion of the $4000 labor. They would both be taking a haircut and learning a lesson. But does anyone think she should pay a portion of the labor cost?

I'd definitely get a real pro estimate to get it redone if that's even possible.

I am appreciating all the varied perspectives that have been expressed here and have learned a lot through this whole process. I feel a little better today after receiving a call from the contractor asking me to disregard the invoice and that he was not expecting to receive any payment. I will move forward now pursuing advice and quotes from reputable flooring companies in the area and plan to wait it out until the work can be done.

jmm1837,,,I said the same thing way up top. if he can't fix them, have a pro company come out and see if they can. if so, contractor pays a portion of the bill. I also said to replace the floors, he should figure in what shape they were in before he started and pay accordingly. I thought my advice was sound, given the info we were given.

But, it looks like he has withdrawn his bill to OP. yeah, no kidding.

suejhayes,,,do you have any pics of before and after you can share? i think most of us are curious

1) Before

2) Sampling of stain color - 1 coat

3-5) After 2nd coat and poly

pic.3 is of the lighter stain around baseboards due to edging sander used

6) Cross section of floor after refinishing

was any of that cross section visible before he started? anywhere? it's obvious it's engineered.

and yes, that finished job is horrendous. you may have enough wood on there to do it again. good idea that you're calling in a reputable flooring refinisher. make sure to ask them if the prior work that has been done, ups you cost. if it does, have your guy pay that difference. If they say it would have been the same price before or after his work, then let it go. I just don't think it's fair if you have to pay more for them to fix what he's done.

Yikes. That's just awful. I agree - it looks to me that those floors have enough wood to refinish, but I really can't tell from a pic. Let us know what the pro says.

Actually, after the floors were finished a new contractor I brought in to give me advice showed me how to view the floor by opening the covering on the floor outlet.

In that last picture - it looks like the engineered wood floor has another layer of something (dark gray?) over it. What is that?

Chess - That's stain with 3 layers of poly.

"if the contractor held himself out to be competent" and "from what I have read, he presented himself as qualified"

"What do you read from the OP that leads to that opinion? Please quote it. I must have missed it. TIA"

Isn't a contractor presenting himself to be competent and qualified if he accepts the job? I'm not saying that willingness to accept a job is any indication of competence and qualifications, but it would seem that the contractor is saying he's qualified if he says he can do the job.

In a perfect world, yes. In the real world I've noticed that sometimes people get in over their head to try to accommodate someone in need, when they should just say no.

So long as the wood has 3mm or MORE of solid hardwood sitting above the tongue, that floor can be refinished. Yes, engineered hardwoods are HARDER to refinish. They often have 5-15 layers of Aluminum Oxide on top of them. That is a VERY difficult product to remove. By the looks of the stain application, it is possible that NONE of the finish came off. Which is why it looks like "paint".

A high-end FLOORING professional like Johnson Flooring Co. could have gotten the job done. It would have taken several days LONGER to complete because of the existing finish. Once the wood was completely free of finish (it can take 2-3 TIMES the effort/time/money to remove factory finishes) the stain/finish application would have been identical to solid hardwood.

A "helpful guy" with plenty of renovation skills (including INSTALLING floors) would be hard pressed to deal with a factory finish. He may have enough skill/knowledge to tackle a site finished hardwood, but the factory finish is what caught him unaware.

At this point, you owe him nothing. He will "eat" the time and money he spent trying to deal with this project. It will be the price he pays for learning how NOT to deal with a factory finished floor.

If you had PAID him, he would be responsible for correcting his mistakes at his own cost. If you do NOT pay him, he is NOT responsible for PAYING for anything. That's normally where the courts go with something like this. If you PAY for a service you are ENTITLED to the service. If you do NOT pay for it, you do not have any expectation for REIMBURSEMENT. See where I'm going with this?

The money that was ear-marked for him, will go to the next professional who will have to tackle this floor. And that's the way it should be. His "cost" for learning this lesson is that he doesn't get paid for for many days worth of work and hundreds of $$ in materials. That's the price he pays.

Your price is the price it costs to bring in a real professional - which is what was necessary in the first place. You are not punished financially. Just the time spent waiting for a handy man to muck up floor refinish.

I understand what you are saying. My only thought here is that the floors are now in much worse condition than they were. So yeah she's not paid anything, but really, she has been made "less than whole" due to the condition of the floors. I suppose, one could make a case where, if the floors were so bad, prior to this knucklehead contractor's actions, that they HAD to be refinished, then she is no worse off. But if a true professional feels that the effort/cost is GREATER now, due to the incompetence recently applied, that is what I have an issue with.

There is plenty of meat on the engineered floor. The contractor only buffed the floor and applied 3 coats of poly shade. No full sand was done at all. He is finding out that the poly shade is not bonding to the aluminum oxide. The AO probably has teflon in it. Which cannot be recoated.

G & S, how would one know if their engineered floor contained teflon? Do all aluminum oxide finishes have teflon in them?

As far as your contractor is concerned, if he is not a licensed flooring contractor you do not get a new floor. In California we are licensed by individual trades. In other words I cant lay tile as a C15 flooring contractor and a tile contractor can't sand a floor. So by our laws he would not get paid and you would not get a new floor you both ran the risk. On the plus side from looking at your vent and the thickness of your floor you can have it refinished by a professional. The urethane that was applied is not adhering properly and would sand off easily with a Bona ceramic belt you can remove the Aluminum oxide finish, these belts will make quick work of Aluminum oxide and Titanium oxide. Once again you need a pro sanding company with the right equipment. Call bona USA to see if there is a certified Bona Master Craftsman in your area he should have the right equipment to remove just the Finish and not the flooring. I have fixed a lot of floors that look like this in the past and so I know it's doable you just need the right guy for the right job.

My company has sanded over 2 million square feet of hardwood flooring and prefinished engineered floors including aluminum oxide and titanium oxide flooring as long as there is enough material on the surface of the floor, any of these types of floors can be refinished by a professional wood flooring company. The only exception would be a
Hand scraped, machine distressed floor, or floor with under 2 mm of wear layer. Do your due diligence flooring companies so that you don't get caught in a uncompromising. position. And homeowners you need to do your due diligence researching hardwood floor companies, too many times homeowners go with the cheapest company and they get a job that is unacceptable.

Joe's Hardwood Floors Inc.

San Diego, Ca.

@Jelly, Use a permanent marker. If, it wipes off, it has teflon. Not all AO, has teflon.