Awesome thread. Will answer tonight. Thank you for the great question. Will discuss with DH and kiddos.

To me conformity is subjective.

Success is subjective.

Passion is electric. Passion is something most are born with. However, not all understand a feeling of passion. And, there are those with misplaced unregulated passion.

I used to think the happiest people were those who had passion and knew it.

Now I know passion can be abused. Some people even have a passion toward unhappiness.

New passions can be learned. Sometimes that's good and sometimes bad.

Passion needs a warning sticker.

I have a passion for looking at beautiful art and sometimes creating it. The electric isn't high enough to take over but high enough for me to just be and enjoy.

Some people have high voltage passion but are also close to insanity.

I'm happy with my mid to mid/high electric.

My grown sons were raised in a subjective conformity atmosphere. Both are outstanding ,honest, happy and exceptional people. One is mid/high electric and one mid/low. Both were raised the same.

Wow Justerrilynn, it think that is really well said, passion is electric. I think this is very true and that there is a temperature associate with it. What do you define as subjective conformity?

This would explain subjective conformity to me.. It's part puzzle and has many gray areas. One must keep an open mind. The reason I think of it this way is because in America conformity can vary greatly depending...

Some very famous people started out outside the puzzle of conformity but were later made part of the puzzle by those self nominated keepers of the conformity. This acceptance is often done after. Things have a way of moving around in the conformity club.

I always told my kids not to be afraid of sometimes being outside of commonly excepted conformity. You don't always have to be the "same ". I tried to teach them that everyone has moments of different . That is normal. Own it, but do so kindly and respectfully.

These days I think it's more common to raise your kids in this mindset. It wasn't as common 26 to 32 years ago when my kids were young.

Passion is a term that folks often use to describe me. But it is subjective. I once briefly dated a guy from the Dominican Republic who characterized himself as passionate and me as a cool northerner. I was actually rather cool to his wanting to jump into a relationship with me, because I had an inkling he was on the rebound. Which turned out to be true, and he actually left me quite soon to get back with his ex. We were friends and I wasn't that upset, rather I was furious that he had kept telling me I was "reserved." So passion can be situational as well.

Conformity to social norms I would say is also subjective and situational. Different groups have different norms. Some give members a wider latitude. I tend to hang with a very tolerant crowd, but still one does have to draw the line somewhere. "Conforming" to the Golden Rule doesn't seem too onerous to me . . . Seems like a good rule of thumb for functioning harmonious groups over the long haul. Passionate people have to get along with others, so they should probably seek out tolerant groups but also learn to understand those less passionate or the effect their passions might be having on others. Self awareness never hurts to go along with both conformity and passion.

If you're passionate, you have to learn to channel it. I once went to a job interview where the guy interviewing me said, "You seem like a very passionate person. That's a good thing, because passion can ignite a spark of creativity and progress to an organization. It can also crash and burn things. The hard thing for me to figure out when interviewing someone is which one is which." His organization had gone through recent turmoil due to personality conflicts so he was hyper-aware of the fact that it wasn't just the person's qualifications and accomplishments that were important to the job, but also their personalty type and how that might fit with the team. I appreciated his candor.

I once worked with a woman who kept telling us she was a passionate person and her personality could not be suppressed, but she was rather self-centered and seemed oblivious to other's feelings and how her needs and behavior might be affecting other team members. Passionate/Inconsiderate, two separate things that don't have to go together, one should not be an excuse for the other. On the flip side, I once had a passionate boss who would routinely chew us out and bark at us, but she would also often apologize later when she thought better of it, and you just had to learn to deal with it.

Some folks are deathly afraid of passionate people. Others thrive with them. It's a balancing act if you are one since you will run into both types as you navigate your life. I try to keep the home fires burning but not burn down the whole house!

Pinkmountain , why do you think people are deathly afraid of passionate people? I'm not sure I have ever come across that. Can you explain your experience and what you mean?

Pinkmountain and justerrilynn-Can you share an example of how passion and conformity have shaped how you raise your families? Do you think that conformity is ever responsible for limiting success?

I have run across some people who are very negative about passionate people. For example, I said, "deathly afraid." That's how passionate people tend to talk. Someone might quibble about nuance on that, so I might have to amend it to "very miffed" or "slightly uncomfortable" to conform to something that makes them feel more at ease in the conversation. It tends to often be an introvert/extrovert thing. I have a loud, bouncy intense colleague and I have heard people say they can't stand him, he's so outrageous and aggressive. I find him to be a funny pussycat. I don't take everything he says literally, a lot of times he's just tossing out ideas. I've heard many people say they were inspired by his passion and I've heard folks say they think he is a PITA. I don't think either perspective is right or wrong or even needs to be defended. Different strokes for different folks.

Another example, my brother hates what he calls my "inflammatory language." Other friends and family scratch their heads over what the heck he means. Not everyone hears the same meaning in words, people bring different perspectives to the conversation.

I think whether passion or conformity is a limiting factor depends on your situation. For an interesting exposition of this idea, watch the movie "Amadaeus." I can't imagine a situation where conforming to societal norms would be a limiting factor, but I can see situations where someone who defied convention and took the risk to innovate would reap a large reward if it caught on. However, I wouldn't call that passion, I would call that risk-taking. And I have worked in situations where risk taking is the group norm, such as in mountain climbing. Risk taking has big rewards but can have big losses as well. In these cases it almost seems like the norm is to push norm boundaries, so there you go. I'm not much of a risk taker.

Professionally, wise people observe the norms of the culture in which they work and follow them unless there is some moral imperative not to. I've known folks who are offended by dirty jokes and nasty teasing really caught in a quandary if they find themselves in a work environment where that kind of thing is the norm. I think several famous celebrity chefs have gotten caught up in controversies around that issue and I've been told that the restaurant business is rife with ribaldry. My roommate in college left a bachelorette party when a stripper arrived and that was against her Christian beliefs. I wasn't at the party, but she was quite shocked that some of her friends would behave that way. I thought her example was honorable. I doubt she paid any serious price for that.

I think a lot of folks have "non-conforming" children and struggle to find them support. However, my personal experience has been that to expand one's viewpoint of what is "proper" and what is not, is amazingly satisfying for the ideas and doors it opens up for you. As a teacher, I always strive to find ways of reaching every student, and don't like to try to push square pegs into round holes.

Oh ok I get it. Your colleague is a high wired type. Too much electric for some. He changes the molecules in the room.

Do you think that conformity is ever responsible for limiting success?

I don't know. I mean, someone might seem to be conforming but is really wearing gold underware under the gray suit. They really want to be the gold bean.

very interesting discussion..as i read i'm trying to understand both "passion" and "conformity"-and imagine situation when these two would come at each other as a conflict

to me they're a bit of..fruit of different trees? I don't know whether my analogy is right..but say "passion" would be a fruit of Tree of Life.."conformity" would grow on Tree of Good and Evil..or something along the lines

I think in most situations one can be conforming and be passionate. it lies in different planes of one's being..or does it?

it can be that one is conforming to something that others find non-conforming..and his own inner law takes precedence..so he's doesn't conform..yet it has not to do with a passion, or doesn't have to.

in short it's a lot to think about, and I'm a bit perplexed..which is a good thing I guess

meanwhile made me think of "Wuthering Heights" for some reason..on which I found a very interesting website dedicated to it and all..

I wonder whether what some would call my passion, others would see as certain conformity? or vice versa? they would observe it-and attach it to a different tree, in their minds?

all that was to say..please don't stop writing... if you feel like it of course

Thank you so much for starting this thread, Friday.

When we talk about conformity the images that word conjure can vary so widely. For some conformity may be an unequivocal good that ensures social cohesion and prosocial behavior. For others non-conformity brings forth images of geniuses breaking through convention and creating new norms in the arts and science, like Picasso and Einstein.

For me, conformity is about living up to people's standards and expectations. I am not particularly interested in living up to what other people think is right- unless I admire the person in question, then, it can matter to me.

The problem is, we live in a society that has become mind bogglingly materialistic (and I am not one of those people who brags about how minimalistic she is and how she values experiences over things and such- I like things. I like experiences. I like the arts. I like travel. I like the things money can buy, and I do not pretend otherwise.) When I say we have become too materialistic, I am looking at how materialism is about the only measure we use to judge people's success anymore. I am not naive, of course financial worth has always had an out-sized impact on how people see one another, but it seems to me that in the past decade or so there has been a fixation on that one measure which has been amplified by our society's constant need to broadcast what we are doing to one another.

How can someone build a successful life on such a shallow foundation? How can someone follow a passion without a clear indication of how it becomes remunerative if all anyone cares about is whether or not you are 'living the dream'? It's kinda like when you are shopping and are clueless about the quality of the goods you are buying and so you use price as an indicator of value. If you were savvy and understood the good you were looking at better, you might choose differently, but when you are blind to the good's true value, then you rely on a crutch like price. It's not always a successful strategy in the marketplace and it is most certainly never a successful strategy for judging one another, or yourself.

And as an aside, I am always reminded of all the movie stars who had mental breakdowns, descending into addiction and what not, complaining that they could not take the pressure of always having to be in the public view and playing a role, which I think is the box regular people are putting themselves into these days- an no one is paying them for the abuse their psyche is taking.

So in short, conformity is the enemy of passion and absolutely limits success, (even for people who seek traditional success). Passion must be discovered and nurtured. People are rarely passionate about mundane things and so it takes a great deal of fortitude to defy expectations and follow that passion.

As a parent I have instilled the ethos I was brought up with- do not compare yourself to others. There will always be people who are better than you are at something and people who are worse than you are. Strive to be the best version of yourself. Compete against yourself, meet your own expectations. Respect every one and every job. There is dignity in any job well done. Ensuring no one dissuades your children from being themselves can be a YUGE challenge. Schools were not made for creative children whose parents respect their intellectual needs, so you have to be willing to help schools understand your child's agenda and help your child respect the school's agenda so that the two do not go to war. It's not a fair fight and the child will always lose unless she has some help to back her up.

Lastly, I loved Mtn's point about horseback riding costing money as opposed to making money. Not all passions can be turned into a comfortable living- and of course you can adjust what you need in service of your passion- so maybe working with horses and teaching riding while living in a rural area and not having much discretionary income is a worthwhile trade off for you. But I submit you need to be crystal clear about what the sacrifices are now and in the future for that kind of choice.

In many ways, I don’t live a lifestyle that is congruent with conformity. It is not something that dictates most of my actions and thoughts. On the other hand, Iike pink mountain, I tend to associate with like minded folks and I guess I conform to their set of rules (even though they may or may not be in line with most of society).

Pink mountain - Your comment about how expanding ones viewpoint about what is proper can be amazingly satisfying... OMG Just think about how different our world would be if everyone could just be open to this thought.

Rita, like you, I agree that conformity can limit passion and debilitate success. My natural tendency is to think outside the box and to question why things have to be a particular way. It is something that I really value and the type of thought process I would like for my kid. This kind of thinking really shows up in many aspects of my life. It is apparent in my profession and most of my home life. It is also why I am so attracted to DIY. By most standards, I would score very high on the creative scale. Similarly, in my mind, traditional school settings do not foster this type of thinking. My family has dealt with it by homeschooling, which I guess is an example of not being congruent with societal norms. That is not the only reason we homeschool, but it is a contributing factor. I have always been drawn to science and math. IMO both of thses fields can sometimes attract out of the box type of thinking.

Art has been a part of my life for as long as I can remember. It brings clearity to my thoughts and helps to keep my mind both happy and healthy. Anyone who walks into my home can almost instantly determine that is my passion. Using Justerlynn’s scale, for me this is high voltage, and I might even tip towards a little insanity but I try to limit the insanity part to only on occasion ;)

Glad you did this topic! I've only got a second, but passion supercedes conformity for me.

When I was in high school my father told me several times that if I wanted to study education and be a teacher, he'd send me to any college in the USA. He passed away at 60 and I never got the chance to ask why.

Passion makes it easier to succeed for me. I am passionate about my work, so it doesn’t feel like work, but I did not start out feeling passionate about my job. My passions are prosaic compared to others, but the feeling is similar. I am all in. That makes my work output better than people who are less enamored of what they are doing. I think about work with a playful and creative mindset, which gets pretty good results, if I do say so myself. If I were doing a job I found boring, I probably would not be able to sustain the effort it takes to become excellent at it.

Conformity constrains creativity, so Imdont think that can fuel excellence. Even the most boring professions require creativity in order to advance.

Passion is a dynamic that is unique to a person, so there are no right or wrong responses, although we do tend to view the take of others through our own lens of experience. I once chided a close friend for saying that she simply HAD to have a job in which her passion was fully engaged, when she complained of not being fulfilled in her then-position. To those of us who have plodded along steadily at the same career for decades, such a demand can come across as petulant and unrealistic, but upon further reflection, I had to concede that she was expressing her unique thirst, at a time in her life when she desperately needed to find something to quench it.

For myself, passion takes many different forms with a number of different outlets, and always has. For most of my life, I have seen my career as a means by which I’m able to pursue my passions, but at this point I do find myself more passionate than ever about what I do to earn a living. It’s where my strongest skills lie, and to be able to utilize them – even if the field may not necessarily be something that speaks to my soul – is actually quite fortunate.

I think both too much passion and too much conformity can limit success. And I think if you include financial success as a part of "success" that for most people it is easier and more stable to be successful through conformity than it is to be through passion.

For every guru out there who touts how they reached their goals by being passionate about something, for every unconventional person who is financially successful, there are dozens or hundreds of people who are passionate about something who can't make a living doing it.

I think the whole thing of if you can dream it, you can make it happen is a fallacy that people buy into and then they are disappointed. If this were true, there would not be the gigantic income discrepancy that exists in this country.

On the flip side of this though is people who completely ignore their passions and may be successful in some conventional role, they may even be very financially successful and they are still not happy.

I think it is important to balance both convention and passion. I think this way because I know a number of artists who live essentially at poverty level or slightly above. It's all well and good to be creative, but at some point you need to be able to go to the dentist, have health care insurance and have some sort of retirement. Penury can kill a lot of passion.

There are a number of people who give up their conventional jobs at some point and concentrate on their passion or on something that makes them happier. But if you look into the backgrounds of a lot of these people...oh buy the way they were a high powered surgeon or attorney or publisher or they made millions in the stock market, so they can afford to give that up and pursue their passions.

If you look at interior design, and design history, and architecture, which is something I am very interested in, if you look at the celebrity interior designers for example, a lot of them become successful because they have a certain amount of financial freedom. Their family had money; their family is in commercial real estate or banking or the financial sector, they themselves had a corporate job and made money. And then because of this, they also have connections, wealthy friends and family who can give them projects to get started. In much of the profession interior designers are going to plod along making $50,000 a year. $45,000 a year is "low income" in my location for a family of four. Going with passion is not something most people can afford.

still perplexed

Snce most societies expect of their members to

a) work (easier if such work can be well-defined and understood by the majority of said society, bring immmediate rewards, etc, in short, be somehow quantified more easily. When one is an unpublished poet-becomes harder I guess)

b) put themselves all in said work, or any other work they attempt to do, if a society perceives such work as good and/or needed

c) and it is generally recognized that passion in work such and such will have a chance to produce best results. so it is generally admired.

a peak of non-conformity in such society would be, for example, to refuse any work at all-which indeed happens in some subcultures, say "thieves in law" who are not allowed to work under any circumstances, take a big pride in being "thieves in law" , and under extreme hardship or threat would rather cut their own hand off than agree to cooperate with authorities and work-or else they'll loose their face, their status, their essence, their everything.

They still conform though-just to a different code of their subculture.

I'm sure they are excellent thieves (or robbers, or murderers) and take great pride in their way of life.

Can it be argued that their passion for their "work" supercedes their conformity? I don't know. Their conformity is still there, and the punishment for breaking it in their subculture would be enormous.

That's an extreme example of course..I'm bringing it up to try to make sure I understand what you mean by "conformity".

maybe you speaking of standart vs non-standart?

I'm trying to catch the same wave here, so to speak. To be of same.. radio frequency.

It's interesting because members of the punk culture, who are non conformists in a global sense, look identical to members of the punk culture of 40 years ago, so they are highly conformist within their group.

Quite true. I used to be acquainted with a group of hardcore bikers reknowned for their "outlaw" tendencies and skirmishes with rival gangs. Each and every one of them looked alike -- they wore a certain "uniform" of black leathers, rode a certain make of motorcycle, frequented only certain businesses, spoke in a certain way -- there was absolutely no deviation from these norms accepted. They had established their own little societal subset, and while they prided themselves in believing they were "outsiders", they were in actuality some of the most rigid conformists I've ever known in my life.

I'm a conformist when it comes to grammar, and I always try to follow grammatical rules the best I can. I tend not to use slang, and I never use swear words.

When it comes to expressing myself artistically, I am a non-conformist, and I have never followed rules for fashion.

Whenever I take a psychological test, I am labeled "eccentric", but I do not think of myself that way. I have noticed more conformity in societies of countries like Japan and China, and especially China, where the individual is supposed to be subordinate to the group. I do care that much about belonging to a group, but I am not opposed to it either.

As for passion, I had much more of that when I was younger. It seems to be waning now, and I am sad for that. I was passionate about design when I started doing it, but after I achieved a few lifetime goals (by age 50), I became more complacent. I used to care about leaving a legacy behind after I die, and I no longer care about that.

..I just wanted to say once more "thank you" for this thread-my wheels continue spinning..and it seems that it pushed me to some realization..a bit painful maybe but very important..sort of a mental breakthrough. It's not strictly on-topic realization, it's a by-product, let's say..well anyway. It turned to be an important road. One never knows where he arrives at while travelling.

I hope I still have miles before I go to sleep.

So. Thank you..

I pinkmountain - I wish I could like your comment about a billion times. I can think of lots of instances regarding politics, religion, race, all the hot topics, where people may be likely to conform instead of standing up for what they know is morally correct.

Without courage people cannot act morally. And if you care what everyone thinks of you, it's pretty hard to behave courageously.

I'm in the middle. I have never been a conformist but I'm also not demonstrably or obnoxiously passionate about my beliefs, positions or causes. I never followed the crowd as a kid nor do I have herd mentality now and jump on the latest social media cause, decorating trend, food, etc. I'm passionate in some of my beliefs but temper that passion around others because I respect other people's differing views and prefer not to offend their sensibilities (and some are easily offended by differing views).

In my work I've been passionate about being ethical and hard working and I do what I think is right and balances the needs of the company, the customers and the employees. However I use my best judgement on when to stand up for something and when it makes no sense to do so even if I don't agree with the decisions that are being made. I have however quit a good job without another one because of unethical leadership within the company.

And I don't enjoy arguing my point as is done on Hot Topics - just not my thing. DH on the other hand loves a stimulating, intellectual debate. With no ill will intended he has unfortunately offended some sensitive folks beyond the point of no return.

In certain sense, I find it can be easier to behave courageously

oh it can be scary and all. can be very scary. I went against groups in my life (and miraculously got away with it too. well that wasn't war situation either. no guns lol.)

but I choose between two potential hard punishments here.

I just knew that my inner punishment will be harder to bear

I was conforming to my inner code. It'd be pretty unbearable otherwise

But it's not like it appeared in vacuum..

I didn't invent it. I was taught it. I was taught it pretty strictly. Maybe I added to it and all, or tweaked it somehow. But it's not something original..

So in eyes of them who taught me-I'd be trespassing much more, and it's very heavy punishment.

even if they don't see it. don't know it. even if they are dead.

On the other hand, under other circumstances, when I think that others matter more, or that I matter less..or.. I can deliberately choose my inner punishment. if I think it's better for the cause. That'd be a longer story. I might seem non-conforming and all while doing that. I might seem pretty bad to outside observer. Won't be anything unique either. Plenty people seem like they make bad personal choices. Maybe they do indeed. Maybe they choose between bad choice and choice that would be worse.

I also noticed. It can easier to act on behalf of somebody else. My inner compass is -hopefully-working allright. North is North and South is South

when it's about me I'm less sure.

(well it's also much easier to like somebody who's very far away. Harder to love them who surround you.)) the hardest is to like yourself. yourself, you know all too well.

in discussions..I have certain rules. Which usually work. They're pretty much making-sense-rules. As my family put it, "rules of human co-existence"..

Nothing original here either. It's not like I never get carried away-yet I try to adhere to them

I might get carried away

It might sound very harsh. My speech gets this clarity it usually lacks..))

Last time I got carried away I took myself out of the situation for several weeks.

I was right by the way. I was completely right. If I say so myself.

But I still felt bad. At certain point it mattered less that I was right..

I could feel that I was suddenly this unknown scary creature to my own friends. Took them time. To "recognize" me again

So. I try to not get carried away.

Ah..the thing that I figured out before..it wasn't about all that. It lied in a different plane..

it was something about passion

And I knew that while to some it might look a passion, maybe enviable, maybe totally strange and unreasonable. To others it would be a completely understandable thing.

It would depend on who's standing beneath these trees, looking up.

I'm not sure I have a really passionate bent or nature. I have more passionate feelings than passionate expressions. I feel passionately that people should be allowed to have their spiritual beliefs that they should be respected for their emotions that they should be allowed to have the voice that comes out of them naturally or relatively naturally.

All of those things are to my mind their rights. But I don't shout that to the rooftops. I merely feel badly for people when someone tries to shut them down even if I disagree with their opinion. Provided it is just their opinion and not prejudice or bashing of another person.

Other people are able to voice those things but I'm not sure my voice is as articulate to express my feelings of dismay when someone is cut off or shut down by another. Ridiculing to me is just wrong.

I guess I feel passionate about fairness as much as one can be fair in this world.

I have enjoyed reading these. The different perspectives are interesting. It would be interesting to match the real life person with the person who wrote each post above. I wonder if the real life person would match the person we have pictured in our minds.

I once counted..out of sheer curiosity..I've met approximately 130 people after reading them on the internet

some I met very briefly, big social situation, so these probably don't count as I didn't have a real opportunity to meet them

in most cases, takes some mental adjustment. can be a matter of moments -or can take longer. then somehow two pictures blend into one

some people get surprized that others are real..:) like,that they do exist. They need to get over that initial surprize.

If they experience it toward me they tell me that sometimes. I usually don't know how to react

happenned to me only once, well as far as I can remember-and before I saw the person irl.

it happenned when he sent me his photos

I remember that strange revelation..it was a bit dissappointing even..not because I didn't like the pictures

but because he was a real person

you see, I kinda thought he was a spirit. a benevolent one..:)

By en large, the Gardenweb people I have met in real life match their online personalities but in real life have so much more depth! I feel lucky to have met so many great people!