I remember reading in a book somewhere (sorry I can't remember and give proper credit) what one family did. Every night when they sat down for dinner, each child had to name one thing they learned that day at school or wherever. If they didn't have something to contribute, they had to grab an encyclopedia from the shelf and find an item to discuss. I think it's a great idea and we'll start doing this as soon as sonny gets old enough.

As for the picky 5-year-old, all I can do is offer my sympathy -- our guy is under 3 and is just as picky! Good for you for not negotiating and refusing to cater to special meal requests -- your grandmothers would be proud of you! Stay strong and good luck!

Our dinner conversation is more spontaneous -- My DD 5yo is into dinosaurs right now, so we talked a/b evolution, where the dino went, why they died. At her school, the teacher read them a news article a day (short one) and discussed the issue, so she would tell us a/b that. We wander around a lot, don't stay on a topic but then and again, they are young.

I grew up w/ a debating family, and meal time can get unpleasant w/ all the opposing views. So I want my dinner time to be just a time to socialize, chat, laugh together. No pressure, you know. Our conversation is pretty much random. :-D

My children are picky eater -- but I don't dwell on it. I cook what I cook. If my son 9yo doesn't like my food, he makes himself a bowl of oatmeal, or scrambled eggs. DD 5yo would get herself rice & soy sauce. I told them this isn't a restaurant so you don't pick & choose. If they don't like my cooking, they can make their own food. ;-D They are a lot less picky when they are hungry.

As far as the conversation at the table, we usually discuss what happened that day at school, any goings on at school etc. Every now and then we'll get into discussions that cause dissenting opinions, and I do not like to "argue" at dinner, so I'm always the bad guy trying to change the subject. Otherwise, those of us who do not agree with the others of us, tend to just finish eating quickly and leave the table. Not a pleasant dinner experience.

When my kids were younger sometimes we would pick an article out of the paper - child appropriate of course and have them read it and then we would talk about it. Very casually - I don't want my dinner hour to be a civics lesson.

As far as your daughter's picky eating, I was a very picky eater and hated to drink milk. I was not allowed down from the table until I had finished and drank my milk. Anyone who doesn't like milk ever tried to drink it once it's gotten warm? YUK! I fell asleep at the dinner table many nights! I was very stubborn, and while I never mouthed off at my parents - that seems to be a behavior that has become prevalent now than before, I would not cave and eat.

So, as a parent, I generally do not cook things that I know my kids will not eat. As they've gotten older, we've progressed to more elaborate things, but still eat pretty basic dinners. Spagetti, chicken and rice, meatloaf, lasagna, pork chops and noodles etc...

Since I was fairly traumatized by the whole eat what I give you or nothing else, I've never done that with my kids. If they don't like it, they don't have to eat it but they don't get any dessert and if they're hungry later the only thing they can have is a bowl of cereal.

Believe it or not, Miss Picky Eater grew up to be a is a pretty diverse menu eater and now I eat just about anything. However, I still never drink a glass of milk! I like other dairy items, but just hate the taste of milk.

So, it may be that your daughter is trying to get attention, have some control over something if she feels she has no say in anything - whatever. She may just not like the food you're cooking! I truly don't think I was a picky eater to be defiant, a pest or a pain in the ass to my mother. I just didn't like salmon patties, tuna fish casserole, rabbit, and many other things that she concocted.

I'd make the dinner that you want each night, and if she doesn't like it then she has no dinner, or let her have a bowl of cereal. In my case, I was very very thin. I probably weighed 45 pounds in 3rd grade. So I think my parents strictness had to do with they wanted me to eat, but they just didn't go about it in a way that made me want to eat.

So, goodluck, this too shall pass!

" Every night when they sat down for dinner, each child had to name one thing they learned that day at school or wherever."

DH's family did this right from when the kids were old enough to carry on a coherent conversation and continued it after they became adults, although "something interesting I saw/heard/read/did" was allowed along with "something I learned today". Each person was expected to put something into the conversational pot though. The custom was explained to guests and it was hoped that they would play along. Yes, polite arguments did sometimes ensue, which unnerved me early on, until I realized that it was all in fun and they just liked to debate. Certain subjects were off limits at table, most particularly any kind of hurtful gossip, and people were permitted to simply not speak on a certain subject if it was a "hot topic" for them (for instance, DH and I did not participate in discussions regarding religion because they could get nasty fast). Very often someone would jump up and get the big dictionary or a reference book of some kind to back up or dispute an assertion. They had a huge library. All three sons grew up to be very smart adults and I think the intellectual exercise helped a great deal - DH did extremely well on the debate team in high school. However, I do think having everyone sit down at table together at one time with no TV or outside distractions for a meal that isn't stuffing down food in a rush to get somewhere else is important all on its own, although I don't think that it necessarily HAS to be dinner.

I had a German stepfather who was much older than my mother and he too was very old-fashioned about children speaking out of turn. Mealtime talk was for adults unless children were asked a direct question. I remember mealtimes as being pretty boring!

Lynne, my stepmother was a nurse when I was young and my gods did she tell some gruesome (and occasionally also hilarious) stories about the hospital or her nursing training (I guess she and her classmates got up to some hijinks!) at the supper table. :-) I too learned not to be squeamish pretty darn quick! It's served me well over the years.

I was a somewhat picky kid. I still won't touch olives or liver with a 50 foot pole! :-) Mostly it was just unfamiliarity with different foods; I was expected to eat three bites (real bites, not microscopic nibbles) of a new food before declaring that I didn't like it. Much of the time I discovered I liked something that I would never have tried if left to my own devices. (I think my parents always regretted making me try asparagus... LOL) I did always have the option of making myself a peanut butter sandwich if I did not like the offerings on the table but my parents and stepparents would never cook different things for me if I didn't like something. Both Dad and Mom (they separated when I was 4) got very snarly about wasting food - they would serve very small quantities to start and you were expected to finish that, but going back for seconds was preferable to putting more on the plate to start and then leaving half of it.

Thanks everyone (esp. lynne and carole for the suggestions). I really should post about DD on parenting or cooking board. I didn't intend for this conversation to be about DD's picky eating.

DS had some sensory issues (mostly motor delays - still has vestibular problems so he's just not a physical kids). Couldn't have his foods touching, preferred everything room temp (except when he was 9mo he changed to liking his milk cold, even when it was *my* milk!). So when DD came along we figured it was more of the same, except she was *always* very physical, just not verbal!

Where DS was trying to get us to name everything from about 6-8mo (incl. colors, we found when he got frustrated pointing to each section of a beach ball and we kept saying "ball") and had a 400+ word vocab (I stopped counting) when he was 2, DD just screamed when she wanted something. We kept trying to teach her to talk, I couldn't even tell dr at 24 mo appt how many words she said b/c I'd never heard the same one twice (and not too many once!). We knew she didn't have a hearing problem b/c her receptive language reponses were age-appropriate.

So no big deal about the food - she ate every kind of jarred baby food (though she was always a "grazer" even when nursing, wouldn't take bottle, wanted me, wouldn't nurse long or eat much at a time compared to DS at that age). When we got into table food, though, we got into a real problem with textures and temperatures. No big deal, we had worked it out with Ds. Well, she never outgrew it - it got worse. last year when she was 4.5 yo we toock her to OT, spent $1200 on therapy to see why she was gagging and in some case vomiting on foods that she said she liked - mostly meats. It turned out her chewing/swallowing mechanisms are fine, it seemed like she just didn't *know* when a food was chewed enough to swallow. Her OT said she just seemed to chew food (esp meat) for the flavor but once the flavor was gone or not intense, she didn't want it in her mouth anymore. Funny, b/c she doesn't really like intense flavors.

Anyway, the OT got her to add raw baby carrots with ranch dip to her diet, and that's it. We quit b/c we really didn't have the $ (hi-ded insurance didn't pay any of it) and she didn't seem like she was making progress. She weighs 40 lbs now so she's normal (and she's short, so actually she's a bit heavy for her height). She loves oatmeal (the texture makes *me* gag!), any kind of bread/pasta, and most meats as long as they're not chewy, but she won't eat stew. Hates potatoes, corn, sweet potatoes! Of course won't touch green veggies but has learned to eat broccoli with ketchup as well as baby carrots. Will eat about any kind of fruit.

So the only arguments come at dinner time. I tell her she has to eat what I give her (believe me, it's the tiniest bit) of meat and broccoli, she can have as much or as little as she wants of anything else as long as she eats those. But then she'll start negotiating - "can I have carrots instead? I don't want broccoli! I won't eat it! How much mac and cheese do I have to eat? Do I have to eat all this meat? I can't!" and starts crying and screaming, I tell her if she doesn't eat it she can't have dessert and then she screams that she wants dessert. So I say "eat your dinner first" and she starts the negotiating and crying and "I can't" all over again "But I want dessert (sob sob)". I just can't deal with it. Sometimes she'll sit there for an hour, everyone will have finished, I've got all the leftovers put away and the dishes/pots in the DW, and she'll still be sitting there - I'll tell her she doesn't have to eat it, but she still wants dessert so she gags it down (or it comes up and she gets upset b/c she tried and I should still give her dessert - sometimes I do b/c I feel sorry for her and she *did* try but sometimes I'm just so fed up I tell her dessert time is long past, it's bedtime now).

Please note that we rarely eat dessert in this house - when Ds and DD ask for it we let them have a small piece of candy from their jars - we have canisters full of candy they get at Halloween, Xmas, Easter, pick up from parade route at 4th, etc. - we don't buy it, it just finds its way into our house!

I'm just getting tired of cooking hot dogs, kielbasa, mac and cheese (first she decided she didn't like the noodles that come in the box so I'd use elbows instead with the powder, now she's decided she *does* like the box noodles and *doesn't* like any others), baked chicken (we put BBQ sauce on ours, hers is plain), pork chops (ours with adobo), pork ribs (again hers plain), and broccoli all the time. I'd like to have rice every now and then! Maybe some kind of *flavored* rice or noodle, some different veggie?? I don't do casseroles, lasagne, etc. b/c my kids won't eat their food mixed together, even though Ds has started to like chili. DD used to eat the black beans (not pinto) and the meat as long as I didn't make it spicy, but then she started refusing those too.

I stopped making her a PBJ sandwich if she didn't like dinner I was making, thought she should learn to at least try some new things. But now I'm stuck in a rut with the same old things, and she's starting to complain about those too. Like I said, DS started off picky too but he outgrew it. What worked with him doesn't work with her.

At least she started to talk around age 2.5 (after I called birth to 3), now I can't shut her up LOL!

Now that my kids are adults I have a different perspective. The trick is you don't start at a particular age- you do it from the start. Even with all the hassle of getting food ready and on the table and trying to corral youngsters to sit and eat hopefully you and your husband have an opportunity (even a fleeting one) to have a conversation. Even if the subject isn't of interest to the kids they can see what the grown ups do. Then you try to include the children by talking about things that do interest them- toys, schoolwork, something they did that day etc.

Luckily my husband and I did that without even trying. I don't think we were even aware of it until one day we happened to met my son's 6th. grade Latin teacher. We were talking about the class and she mentioned that it was obvious to her that we had conversations at the dinner table which included our kids because she could see my son's ability to have meaningful discussions in class. He understood the give and take that occurs in a discussion and the exchange of ideas.

I remember one of the Kennedy children (maybe one of RFK's sons) saying that each of them had to present a topic at the dinner table and be prepared to talk about it in some depth. That sounds like a great opportunity for children to learn to express themselves.

We are a "lots of discussion at the table" family. Some of our funny family memories center around them. I still remember the time our then 6 year old son asked, "Dad, is a poet a job?" My husband explained in no uncertain terms that "No it isn't!" I of course, offered the other perspective... Another time we asked Harry, then about 8, what he wanted to do for a living when he grew up. After a few moments he said, "I don't think I really want to work." My husband nearly spontaneously choked to death that time. I'm a substitute teacher so I always have lots of fun stories to tell (with no names of course). My kids go to an extremely diverse school and they share some of colorful tidbits of their lives there.

The best trick I learned to get kids to try new foods is to tell them they can take it out of their mouth if they don't like it. We taught them how to do this discreetly with a napkin. Amazingly, it took all the stress of the decision away for our kids, and they've always been very adventurous eaters. We also never kid-ified the menu. We like good, hearty crusty bread, so that's what they got -no Mrs. Baird's, etc. for them. We also like salad made from a variety of greens, so again, that's all they've known. I've always just put one meal on the table. Today they are 17 and 13 and eat salad every night, artichokes, shark, homemade salsa, shrimp, pannini, fettucin alfredo, grilled fresh pineapple, etc. -as well as pizza, burgers, steak and chicken of course.

As they get older they are so busy with homework and things after dinner, I'm so grateful we have this time together. We had a lot of passionate discussions around the time of President Obama's election. We also live in an area of the country that is more conservative than we are, and we have lots of discussion about things we see and how we feel about it. Our daughter is a passionate environmentalist and pushes us to recycle everything as we clean up. Our son talks (a LOT LOL) about swimming, but we hang in there thru "I think I can go about 24:30 next time out...." The other night, our 17 year old ds was uncharacteristically missing from dinner and I remarked to DS 13, that "this is how it will be when he is away at college" expecting her to share my bittersweet feelings... no luck. "I know!" she quickly replied. "And I'm going to have the whole upstairs to myself! My own computer, my own gameroom, AND I'm gonna turn his room into a walkin closet!"

Now, the ? in this new thread is, how do you raise your children to have civilized (although at times heated) dinner conversation? At what age do you start? DD is so difficult in general, and about dinner foods in particular, that I can't see ever getting away from the "shut up and eat, I don't want to hear it" (when I've really had it) alternative.

As others have mentioned, we started when the kids were little. We asked everyone something about their day, listened, asked questions, and commented. I explained when my kids were growing up that everyone needed to contribute and keep the "conversational ball" going.

My youngest has always been very quiet at the dinner table, so it is easy to inadvertently leave her out. So one day during dinner I picked up my butter knife and told the family this was "the magic knife". The rules are that no one can speak except the one holding the "magic knife" (and mom). The person who holds the "magic knife" can hand it over to someone else, whoever they choose. No one can take the "magic knife" away except for mom. The person holding the "magic knife" must talk about something that is generally interesting to everyone.

I didn't give the magic knife to my youngest at first, I started with myself, then handed the knife to my oldest child. My youngest got so excited waiting for her turn with the magic knife. She would make a special effort to talk just so she could have her turn. Anyway, the magic knife was wonderful and it helped my daughter a lot. My son never needed anything like that, he has always been a wonderful dinner companion. He is nearly grown now and we sit and talk for a long time after dinner many nights. My daughter is still quiet in a family setting, but she can carry on a lovely conversation when she wants to.

I used to go to lots of business dinners with my husband. It's extremely boring to be seated with a bunch of people who monopolize the conversation or even worse, don't speak at all. I know some people can't help it, they're shy, and I certainly do sympathize. But it makes for a long evening sometimes. Often the shyest, quietest people are the ones who are most interesting once they open up.

Anyway, I always wanted my children to grow up able to carry on a reasonable dinner conversation. So far so good (with a little help from the magic knife).

Some of our best memories revolve around family dinners.

The cooking forum has some good advice about picky eaters. My short answer--they usually outgrow it. My son went through a "only white foods" phase that was annoying, but he's very adventurous now.

We eat every dinner together, and have since the kids were little. My husband's a chef, and sometimes we'd go to the restaurant, and sometimes, I'd feed them cereal at home (big treat). I think we've eaten in front of the TV maybe 5 times in 25 years--maybe pizza night. If I was traveling for work, they'd still sit at the table. It just seems natural to them now, at 22 and 17, to sit down and share a meal, rather than snarf down a sandwich at the computer.

We'd ask the kids to tell us one good thing about their day, and kind of riff from that. Complaints about teachers, coaches, classmates, etc. could wait for cleaning up.

I think you should make for dinner what you and DH, and DS will eat - even if you don't think she will. I would tell her she can either try whatever you're having or she can have oatmeal. That is nutritious and bland enough maybe she'll tire of it and want to try whatever you all are having if she sees her brother enjoying it.

What you need to get under control is the dinner time drama hysterics so that you can enjoy your meal. Give her the choices and then tell her you expect her to sit at the table and eat quietly, speaking nicely with the family etc. If she cannot do this, I'd have her leave the table and go to her room. She can eat dinner alone later. You are allowing her to have the upper hand and she's using it.

Don't yell, threaten, tell her to shut up etc. Tell her the new rules and then expect her to follow them. Once she realizes that she cannot behave like that at the table, she'll probably calm down. She needs to learn she cannot get away with crying and yelling at the table. Any drama gets her sent to her room and once she settles down she can come out and eat dinner - by herself if you are all done. It may take a few days of dealing with her eating separately or some hysterics during dinner, but she will learn that her behavior will no longer be tolerated.

Obviously you know your daughter better than me, and if this occurs just occasionally or when she's tired or not feeling well - then I'd say just ignore it it's normal kid drama. But if this happens all the time, or if she tends to be dramatic over everything, then maybe it's just become habit for her and she needs to learn how to control her emotions. As she goes to school, or has play dates, or visits at a friend's house, she will need to learn how to behave and it will be harder the older she gets.

When I was growing up my Dad told jokes or funny stories and we all participated. My family is Italian, so there was always a long, lingering time at the dinner table, everyone telling stories, asking questions, playing games, etc.

When my children were small, and I was a single mom, I still had them sit at the dinner table and we'd talk about things. Later, when DH and I got together, he didn't sit at the table (his family never did that), but the kids and I would, and we'd talk, sing, play games, etc.

Eventually DH started to join us at the table, but he never lingered long. The kids have grown into table people, too. It's awesome now that they're grown, our conversations become VERY interesting!

As to picky eaters...my advice is to not fight it. My eldest ate anything...horseradish, clams, lemons, as a baby. Now she will try anything. Younger DD will not, to this day, touch anything green except peas. No onions, no mushrooms...she was, and always will be a picky eater. DS lived on PB&J and milk for years. Now he's a vegetarian and eats good healthy stuff. None of them grew up with health problems from being weird eaters. And not fighting with them over cleaning their plate, or eating the meatloaf was worth it, IMHO. But I'm a weird mom, I guess!

Dinner time can be a wonderful tim to have those family get togethers with good conversation but it is not the only time. Dinner time may not be doing it for you but perhaps you can find another time. Right now schedules in my house are screwy. I work at home but my shift starts at 6:00 p.m. Dh gets in anywhere from 5:15 to 6:15, sometimes I get to kiss him and then lock myself in the office. Other times when I know he is going to be on the later side, I feed the kids first to ease the evening. The kids and I have our times together during the day (we homeschool). I am trying to encourage DH to take time with them in the evening. Dinner time is too stressful for conversation here.

I have a 5-year-old with autism so I know about foods and sensory issues. I admit that I cater to those issues to a degree. There is a list of foods that sustains him and my life is better when I don't force the issue, it is simpler to just go ahead and put the PBJ and banana on the plate. We have removed some of the foods from the house that he would just fill up on if allowed (like cereal, he would eat Life cereal day and night if allowed, all cereal has been banished). He generally goes through a bunch of bananas every 2-3 days.

For my older children, if they complain about a food saying they don't like it, etc, they are given more of it. I try to respect a child's palate but they have to try everything. If you don't like it, you are permitted to quietly leave it on the plate. However, no proper nutrition means no ice cream afterwards.

I tried lynne's suggestion of making a list of foods I won't make her eat. We picked 5, with the first being rather broad category of seafood but the last 4 being specific. DD was very excited, though I warned her with only white potatoes on the list that meant she had to eat (not even just taste and spit out) sweet potatoes. I don't know what I'm going to do when I make stew b/c she put cooked carrots on the list too LOL.

I made spaghetti for dinner and she got to choose the pasta shape. Then when it was ready she said she wasn't hungry, I said fine, you may be excused but you're not getting anything else to eat tonight. Then the negotiations started b/c she wanted bread (I had bought a small loaf of Italian - our sandwich bread is whole wheat so white bread is a treat). I refuse to negotiate - just said that when she ate her dinner then she'd get bread. She comes up with a plan "I'll eat 5 noodles, then 5 more noodles..." she does this often and it's a good strategy but I don't want to hear about it, it's more stressful for the rest of us. DH had seconds, she was still sitting there not eating. He told her she could be excused, she said she was still eating, he got mad and said (not yelling, but mad) that he'd eaten 100 noodles and she'd eaten 2! So DH cleared his plate, I cleared mine, went to clean up kitchen, offered DS seconds (he didn't want any), then gave him a second piece of bread. DD is sitting next to him watching, she asked for more milk and I gave her a half glass b/c I didn't want her filling up on that, asked for more bread and I told her she had to eat her dinner before she got empty calories from white bread (this is after she'd had 1.5 mini bagels and OJ for breakfast, and a small hoagie roll left over from last w/e with cheese and mayo for lunch so she was carb-loading anyway! Needed to get the ground turkey into her for protein, and at least some veggies from sauce). It took 15 minutes after DS left the table, but she finished and then had her bread. I told her I was glad she finished dinner in under an hour tonight, but I really wished she had just eaten it without the "I can't" attitude at the beginning. If she had truly not been hungry, she could have been excused but she was able to eat the small bowl (maybe 20 elbow noodles) that I had given her without being too full so I think at this point it's just habit to complain about dinner and try to negotiate how little she can eat and still get "dessert". She didn't have dessert last night - we played a board game til just past her bedtime and when she begged for something small, I just said no, it was bedtime - she hung her head and fake-sobbed a little but was glad to get to bed reasonably early so she could have a bedtime story.

Maybe I'll try the oatmeal or the PBJ again, though not when we're having something I know she'll eat. I didn't want to send the message that I would cater to her all the time, and sometimes she'll have a hot dog while we're having sloppy joes or a quesadilla while we're having enchiladas or something similar, but it sure would be nice to eat shrimp primavera (DS's favorite) without having to figure out what to give her along with the plain pasta I've held out. So maybe something totally different than what we're having isn't bad?

caroleoh - yes, she is overly dramatic/emotional about everything. Ds even calls her a drama queen. I was surprised her teachers said she never had any kind of meltdown at school, even days when she might have been tired or not feeling well, and only the "normal" tears when someone was mean to her. I have said for years, DD is going to fully experience whatever emotion she's having at the time, and make sure everyone else experiences it too! My mom says, the only thing is, they can change so quickly the rest of us never see it coming! She compares DD to "the little girl with the curl".