I would not use two designers on one project, and I imagine they would not want to engage in that arrangement either.

I can't answer your second question - I am sure others here can.

That is how I think of it, but I went to the second shop to look at cabinet types and ideas (they sell doors and windows so I was looking at those as well). I was upfront with the second KD that I had engaged the first KD and she said that was not a problem. I haven't told the first KD (as this seemed weird). I do't like weird.

Don’t hire two. Make sure that you are not required to use their cabinets as a condition of employing them. As in, you are paying them for Design only. Not cabinets.

Make sure that they will answer questions about interfacing with a custom cabinet maker, or another cabinet line if you want to choose those cabinets. Make sure that you can have copies of the actual physical design after paying X for it.

Make sure that they can actually help you with the overall project, and not just a box layout. If all they do is sell boxes and don’t own paint decks, or aren't able to discuss and create a lighting plan, or flooring choices, those are cabinet sellers, not Kitchen Designers.

Ask what kind of total plan documentation that they provide? Tile layouts, with diagrams and grout colors specified? Details for countertop seams pre figured because they know about slab sizes up front? Section details about how molding types intersect, and how tile, window, and cabinets intersect?

Then I have two cabinet sellers, I think. The first defers to the contractor. The second seems more prepared to assist.

Consider hiring a KD not associated with any cabinet company so you get good design without bias toward the cabinetry they sell.

IMO there is a conflict of interest when you are working with a KD who's primary responsibility is to their employer. That responsibility is to sell more cabinets at a higher price point which is usually contrary to the consumers goal.

Also, will the cabinet people that don't get the job let you use any part of their design? Probably not.

Another good reason to get an independent KD.

ETA: I'm a slow typist! I see 2 answers since I started my post. Sorry for the repeat info.

Then you need to look further. Cabinet sellers may sometimes know something about cabinets, but they are out of their depth on designing a full renovation.

Where are you located? Have you checked the NKBA website for local designers? What about online? Many designers can do online if you and your contractor are providing measurements. I know of at least 3 locally, one who has done work for me on my rentals.

I live in the middle of Michigan. The NKBA site has one designer in Lansing (closest and no others within a few hours). I am not sure what a full renovation is vs. an update. You have helped me to rethink the new addition (much appreciated and you pointed out some good things to consider/reconsider). For this we are updating the same space L shape in a great room...lighting sucks now, so definite change. Otherwise it really is cabinets, backsplash and counters. I'll think about a KD, but if that is not the direction I go, what about the two questions:

Should I only work with one Kitchen Design place?

Is there an advantage (price, quality, bids) to shopping two Kitchen Design places and having them both draft quotes (since I am not paying for the design but the final order)?

Is the price quoted the bottom line (baring change in plan, diff cabinets etc) or is this a price I should negotiate.

Again, I want to be ethical but not over spend for no reason.

I guess that is three questions.

Cabinets, counters, backsplash, wiring for lighting, sink and faucet, paint, etc, IS a complete remodel save for the floors, and windows. That is remove everything in the kitchen and start over. And that's the point you assess your floor too!

You're not just buying cabinets. You're coordinating all of that aesthetically, plus a lighting plan, plus timing shipments, and installs.

It would really benefit you to find someone who can help you with all of those aspects. Not just sell you cabinets and then wash their hands of you.

This question comes up often enough that I created an idea book showing what type of documentation that a KD can help you with so that the communication goes well with your GC. Everything has to be accounted for and planned before you start. Appliance specs, which interacts with cabinet design, which interacts with counter choice, which impacts backsplash selection.

https://www.houzz.com/ideabooks/105612493/thumbs/project-documentation-samples 

This is fantastic and very helpful. I think I need to find out just what I am getting from the "designers" and how the relationship plays out. Thank to all who took the time to advise me.

Only use one designer, but interview both. Do not try to get specific ideas from them on the interview as that would make them uneasy that you are trying to get free advice. Talk with them about your goals for the kitchen, and see which one you feel is the clearest communicator. Look at photos of projects they have done, and see which one's tastes most aligns with yours. Don't choose the one with the big ideas who will make your kitchen "fabulous it'll be no problem". Those fantasy KDs are never good.

Sophie Wheeler has often said on this forum not to use a kitchen designer who requires you to use cabinets they sell. I do not agree, for a few reasons. First, my personal--but actual--experience is that I used a KD who required me to choose among the few lines he sold. He was fantastic. Second, in areas like yours with not as much demand for KD services, a KD is likely only able to survive by aligning him/herself with a couple cabinet companies. S/he won't be able to make a living otherwise. The reality therefore is that you won't have a totally independent KD to choose from. I don't think you need to be forced to use a KD online because of that.

I will add that my fantastic KD did not help me choose my appliances, counters, backsplash tile or paint color. I am an appliances geek, so the appliances choices were my purview. For picking the counters and backsplash, I hired separately an interior designer whom I paid on an hourly basis to go with me to the stoneyard and to a tile store (that she had done a lot of business with, and therefore we received a lot of attention by the salesperson there). For the wall paint color, it took her about 10 minutes to help with that and was thrown in.

ETA: One final piece of advice that you didn't ask for, but we have seen so many problems in this area lately on this forum, that I am going to mention it. The backsplash. That should be chosen last. In fact, you may want to defer the backsplash choice and installation until the kitchen is finished. Furthermore, don't have the GC install the backsplash. The backsplash should be specifically carved out of the GC's Scope of Work. You hire separately a tile installer, who does nothing but install tile as his job, and have that person do the backsplash.

Freidajune, I'm going to disagree with you on a lot of what you wrote. :)

While it is certainly possible to find a great KD at a dealer, finding one that can't or won't do a design without requiring you to buy their cabinets is limiting your options unnecessarily. They may sell great cabinets, and they may credit the design cost to your cabinet purchase. And you may end up buying their cabinets. But, if they can't do a design only, then that is not a Kitchen Designer whose primary duty is to create the best kitchen for you. Their primary duty is selling cabinets for their employer. Because why would they require that you buy them in order to use their services?

I'm an independent, and while I'm not driving a Ferrari, I do OK. Most KD's are not sole breadwinners. Just as most department store sales clerks, or hair stylists, or others need a two income family, most KD's will be used to relying on another income to flesh out the light months.

As far as "forced to use an online designer", well I have to say that someone of skill from a distance beats someone local without experience. About 30% of my business comes from online. And, anyone who has to check with a contractor about everything first may not be who you want as your primary adviser. That's not a big dis. Just a little one. I often check with my contractor about things that I'm uncertain about. But, 20 years specializing leaves a lot less to phone the expert about. I've encountered a lot of oddball situations, and remember what we did to solve them.

I also disagree strongly about leaving the backsplash to last. The only reason that that is a popular notion in this forum is the great amount of DIY participants who have difficulty with choosing everything to work together. A skilled designer can select all elements at once, or in close sequence, on the front end. And have everything arrive before the demo starts. There is no need to be waiting on doing a backsplash.

I won't work with a GC who doesn't hire a decent tile sub. I've blasted a few ears over that. In this town there are a lot of bad choices. I keep a couple of names in my back pocket if a GC needs a tile recommendation for a job because his regular guy is busy. But if his regular guy isn't good, that means that either the GC doesn't know quality, and I need to check in other areas too. Or it means he won't pay the good guy enough. In which case he needs to up his salesmanship of quality over objections over price.

There's room for all manner of different approaches to a remodel. But the best remodels have both a great initial vision and the technical direction to achieve that vision.

Do both KD shops sell the same cabinet lines? Ultimately you are buying cabinets, so I would choose the KD that has the cabinets that I prefer.

I live in LA so I have lots of choices. First I made a list of cabinet brands I wanted to check out. Looked up showrooms that had those brands. Visited all those showrooms and then decided which brand I liked best.

I then looked up all the dealers who carried the brand I wanted. There were 4 within 1 to 1-1/2 hour driving radius (not that far, but lots of traffic!) I visited all of them and met with each designer for about 1 - 2 hours. They did their sales pitch, looked at photos and floor plan of the old kitchen, talked about what changes they might make, etc.

I then picked the KD that I thought had the best ability and a personality I could work with. It worked out well and we are 70% done with the remodel, with a few glitches that were not the KD's fault.

My KD also listened to my ideas. He generally dislikes integrated appliance, except in very modern applications. I told him that I thought they would work best in my space. After he visited my space and laid the plan out, he told me I was right about the integrated appliances. I like to collaborate with those I hire and this KD was willing to do that.

Another thing that I felt was important was the showroom. How was that designed and how well were the displays put together. If they can't put together a stylish and well built display to put forward the best impression and sell their product, then they aren't paying attention to the small details that do make a difference. Such as weird ways to treat crowns and corners that looked really odd ... didn't go with that store!

@The Cook’s Kitchen - I hear what you’re saying on everything except the backsplash. On all your other points I see your viewpoint. I also think a lot of it has to do with the client’s location - how sophisticated is it, how competitive a market, what are the caliber of local schools teaching design, how dense a population to serve a lot of people who would seek out a KD, etc. Also the client herself - how knowledgeable is she, how accustomed to home renovation, how decisive and confident or not.

Re the backsplash - I couldn’t count the number of posts on here who’ve had botched backsplash installations done by their GCs, even when the rest of the GC’s work is good. I also couldn’t count the number of people who've posted on here how they picked the backsplash at the same time as the rest of the kitchen choices, but once installed, it didn’t work as a whole, or fit in the kitchen or was the wrong style, etc. On that one, I am standing firm in my advice to the OP.

My KD was the owner of a kitchen store. Yes, they sold two lines of cabinets. He spent a great deal of time with me and even came out and measured. I needed a ballpark figure to see if I could possible afford to go ahead with this project on my budget.

When it was time to actually draw up a plan and give me a detailed quote on the project, I had to pay him $1000. For this, I owned the plans and the details of what size cabinet etc. I could take this anywhere at that time. If I chose to go with cabinets from this store, the $1000 would be applied to my purchase.

This seemed to me like a very fair way to do business. I did end up ordering my cabinets through them and was very pleased. No one is going to work up detailed plans for free for you to "compare".

I’m a kitchen designer who also sells cabinets. My clients are not obligated to use my cabinet lines. They pay for the design and drawings (conceptual only, no final measures) and they can take my plans to other cabinet dealers if they want. If they purchase my cabinets, they get a percentage back toward their design fees. Most of my clients purchase my cabinets but I also design for a lot of new construction where the builders prefer their own cabinet lines.

I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing to work with a KD who requires you to purchase from their lines. But only if you have done your research and you are hiring the designer based on the quality of their designs and product. Not every KD is a good match for every client. So look at their portfolios, check their references, review their process and ensure they offer a quality cabinet with a warranty.

Thank you everyone! I appreciate the feedback. I wrote up a list of questions for my KD and will be meeting with her Monday. At this point I'm moving forward with a single KD.