Jaydub, those are good questions you asked Al..I am hopeful he sees them since there is so much written right after and before your smaller post or questions and can easily be over looked.

S - you're preaching to the choir. I never suggested that fir bark wasn't an appropriate choice for mediums. It definitely works better in the gritty mix than in the 5:1:1 for reasons I mentioned above.

I'm going to disagree that growing trees in pots is as much an art as a science. I consider myself something of a bonsai artist,

that haven't yet begun their journey along the path to becoming bonsai have little in the way of reason to thank me for any form of artistry. Any thanks they might give for their agreeable disposition at the very beginning of their journey toward becoming bonsai belongs strictly to science. You can't fool Mother Nature with artistry when it comes to maintaining trees in a high state of vitality over the long term; this, because she always sides with the hidden flaw, of which there will be many if we try to bluff her with artistry - no matter how amazing someone's artistry might be.

"In addition, finer particles decompose more quickly than more coarse
particles. Particles 1/8 inch or less will decompose too quickly to be
used for long term crops (one season or more)....." What/s wrong with 1/8" particles in soils? Please explain in your own words. You realize you just put ALL soils based on peat, coir, compost, composted forest products ......... on the "off-limits" list, yes? Keep in mind as you explain, that peat breaks down and gasses off faster 1/8" particles of PB.

Al

Argh - I wrote Jay a reply about wicks, but it never made it to the thread - lost in the ethernet, ne'r to be seen again, no doubt.

What would be the best material to use for a wick, nylon rope? I use a strand from a rayon mop head. Sometimes the woven ties that close onion or citrus bag work very well, but not always. Cotton rots. Nylon is usually too hydrophobic. Almost anything that readily absorbs water or allows water to flow downward in contact with the wick will work. And would
bigger be better? 1/5-3/8 woild probably work best. The mop strands are about 1/4" diameter. Also, how would you calculate how much PW your soil
supports? Clear plastic cup. Melt 1/4" hole in the bottom. Cover hole with tape to contain leakage. Fill with pre-moistened soil. Fill carefully to top with water so you don't cause soil to stratify. After an hr, remove tape. When it stops draining, you'll see, through the side of the cup, where 100% saturated soil (no visible air porosity other than a bubble here & there) ends and soil with air porosity begins. Where the change occurs is the ht of the PWT.

Wick stuff:

An aside. If you use a collection saucer, make SURE the effluent that collects in the saucer has NO pathway back into the soil. This is important.

Al

Al, I also find it disingenuous you writing that I am "preaching to the choir", as I was not questioning you, in my above post, about the use of bark per se. You Sir, are dogging my question. What I wrote was about the SIZES OF THE BARK you recommend. Your recommendation (dust to 3/8") does not even come close to what Dr. Carl E, Whitcomb Ph.D recommends as being best for long term (longer then one season) crop production, such as is citrus. Actually Dr. Whitcomb states that much of the sizes in you recommendation are not good to use for longer term crops. By the way, I happen know you have Dr Whitcomb's book.

As I mentioned, plucking a phrase out of context and saying it proves your point is deceptive. I want you to come to a logical conclusion as to why you support your contention. Once I hear it, I'll be more than happy to reply.

Dr W's book is "Plant Production in Containers", the key word being production. Dr W writes from the perspective of the bottom line, which actually gives some degree of short shrift to best care. At a minimum, you're assuming you can compromise on methods for the sake of $ and end up with plants equally healthy in both cases. It's not logical to hold that belief. Would you like to fly to the moon in a rocket ship built by the low bidder? I didn't think so.

Since you quoted it, I asked you to explain why you think Dr's statement makes "1/8" particles" problematic in soils. The statement is actually ridiculous and meaningless w/o context and/or a lot of qualification. I won't waste time debating short passages plucked out of context, but I'll be happy to explain where we differ after you flesh out your contention. I've always been more than accommodating when it comes to explaining how arrive at my conclusions. I beg the same of you.

It would be really helpful if you note what type of soil your potted trees are in and provide a few pictures so we can evaluate how successful you've been.

Al

Al that was no answer, no answer at all. Al you are backed into a corner where your don't have an answer to my question, so in your desperation you resorted to the age old technique of trashing someone's value in hopes to make your claim look better.. By the way Dr. Carl E Whitcomb Ph.D's book is indeed "Plant Production In Container-11. You need to purchase his up dated text.

Actually, I'm quite keen on hashing this out with you, and I never paint myself into a corner. I learned long ago that maintaining our credibility is very important if we want to be taken seriously, so I strictly disallow myself from operating at beyond the limits of my knowledge. If we all did that, there would be far fewer disagreements, yes? Every time I try to participate on this forum, I get the same stuff from you, and you always fare poorly for your efforts, so I'm not sure why you're up for more. If you really want a discussion, simply tell us why you support the Dr's claim. Otherwise I'm arguing against Dr W, and he's not here to clarify what he said or say what perspective he takes when offering his comments. I already offered my thoughts, I'm just hanging loose to see if you care to offer some support for your position. I honestly hope you do.

BTW - I made no comments related to anyone's values. I don't really care what someone's values are. I only care that folks have information they can rely on to help them make informed decisions.

Al

I feel sorry for you Al, but you did shamefully try to trash Dr. Whitcomb, claiming you know that he is more interested in the bottom line (money) . The truth is, there is know way you could know that about Dr. Whitcomb's charterer, but you published that about him anyway, very disappointing. By the way Al, I copied what you wrote about Dr. Whitcomb, and E-mailed it to him in care of Root Maker Container Corporation.

"Dr. Carl E. Whitcomb Ph.D. of RootMaker Corp, and author of the outstanding text book "Plant Production In Container-11" writes, and I quote "In addition, finer particles decompose more quickly than more coarse particles. Particles 1/8 inch or less will decompose too quickly to be used for long term crops (one season or more)..."

Confusing....Why is MGGS recommended when the majority of the particles are even finer?

Al now you see what I am up against here. Trust me , it's been no picnic for quite some time. My girlfriend say's I am a glutton for punishment.

I have yet to see pictures, proof from those that have been bent criticizing my offerings at every turn from the same.

Thank you as always. I know I have made some enemies here for being associated with you or for trying to help others with what you taught me, for it's obvious after most of my postings and yours, but I care more about helping others to be successful likeI have been more that.

Al, in response to my comment about the variability in proportions of fines in mulches you said: Somewhere on this thread I did mention that those experienced at making
5:1:1 or gritty and those who understand the concept that makes them
work so well, will be able to tell by looking at the soil what volume of
peat will be needed. Being a scientist, I am very uncomfortable having to rely on the appearance of the mix (a qualitative observation) instead of measuring the components (a quantitative determination). The former may lead to irreproducible results.

Have any reputable (container) gardening authors suggested using the 5:1:1 mix?

myermike, all you can do is share what works for you. Remember the old saying, "you can lead a horse to the water trough, but cannot make him drink". I share what works for me and let folks make their own minds up what to try. Yes, there are a few people who rule the roost here, but, if you leave, you do not offer people opportunities to try new ideas to fix their problems. There are lots of ways to grow and care for citrus. 5-1-1 is not the only potting medium that works. If you watch lots of videos on youtube showing container citrus mixes, you would be surprised because so-called experts don't recommend what other folks use. I have been growing citrus for over 30 years and never heard of it until I joined FB and this forum. I have done fine with my methods and see no reason to change.

Mike, you said: Particles 1/8 inch or less will decompose too quickly to be used for long term crops (one season or more)..."

Confusing....Why is MGGS recommended when the majority of the particles are even finer?

The bag that I had contained particles from fines up to 1/4/". Also, please remember that the exact composition depends on where in the country one purchases the mulch so.

I hope you do not leave this forum because you have been a valuable asset and I am sure we will all miss you.

Hi all, I’m so sorry if this post I started have caused some heated arguments as that was not my intent. Mike and al, I too hope you never leave this forum as you have been very valuable to lots of ppl and helped more than not. I do agree that it would be much more helpful that the few who report much success in other mediums post pictures of their trees, mediums, growth, anything really as it would help get everyone on the same page. Everyone’s just trying to help each other and I believe learning from others and helping out those who are inexperienced is the whole point of forums like these. I for one was lost years ago when I first bought and killed my first lemon tree and found no answers when I asked many nurseries, looked at many blogs, etc but then I finally found this forum and learned so much from the likes of Mike, Al, Brian, Laura and everyone else on here. And now I can proudly say I’ve overwintered my citrus for 2 winters and haven’t killed a one! ;) And so I hope to be one of those that can offer newbies some help from my unique growing experience and environment, even though I somewhat am still a newbie myself.

Al much thanks for your pictures it really does help as I am a visual learner! I will definitely use the wick to see if it’ll help drain out some excess moisture from the PWT. It seems I have a very heavy hand at watering :( Also those bonsai are amazing I don’t think I’ve ever seen such beautiful bonsai plants before it’s really amazing that the tiny containers you put them in can support such growth!

Lolol - All I said is Dr W is writing with the bottom line as his
focus, and that's what you would expect a person who writes about plant
production in pots. I never once disparaged Dr Whitcomb, nor would I
under any circumstances. I've had a lot of people twist my words in ad
hominem attacks, but your efforts are beyond the pale - just amazing. You must be very
proud of running off and tattling on me. Let me know if ever you feel
like standing on your own 2 feet and having a real discussion. Then we
can have a go.

No worries, Mike, though I do see precisely what you
mean. I have thick skin and I'm well equipped to fend off the petty
white noise. I don't think I have EVER contributed to a
single thread on this forum that I haven't been involved in an
imbroglio with a certain someone within a few posts. Sad.

Thanks, Jan. I hope you get to the point where you're growing in a medium that allows you to water correctly w/o worry the soil will remain too wet after watering. That really is a hump that few hobby growers make it over. At least here, you're among folks who understand how soils work and can offer some guidance. If you think there is anything I might be able to help you with or explain, please don't hesitate.

Bonsai is container gardening, but with a significant difficulty factor - sort of like diving is scored. They give the dive a score, then multiply the score by the difficulty factor for the final score. The small pots and soil volumes make everything much more difficult, but the personal rewards are great, so I keep plugging away. I'm so busy at work, I really need the outlet bonsai provides. Usually, I consider being here at Houzz/GW as a natural extension of my growing experience, and usually get roughly the same reward from helping here as I get from bonsai ..... but not always. ;-)
Al

Al, please respond to my previous post:

Al, in response to my comment about the variability in proportions of fines in mulches you said: Somewhere on this thread I did mention that those experienced at making
5:1:1 or gritty and those who understand the concept that makes them
work so well, will be able to tell by looking at the soil what volume of
peat will be needed. Being
a scientist, I am very uncomfortable having to rely on the appearance
of the mix (a qualitative observation) instead of measuring the
components (a quantitative determination). The former may lead to
irreproducible results.

Have any reputable (container) gardening authors suggested using the 5:1:1 mix?

Geez, I’m away for a while and miss a big debate. I will admit to not reading through all of the responses thoroughly and I don’t have much to contribute except for the fact that 1. I’ve been using reptibark for years and my trees are doing very well. I water when necessary or if it’s just too hot and they need a shower. I’ve never had problems with root rot or failure to thrive. 2. I’ve opened many a bags of reptibark and there is not much (if any) variation in bark size from bag to bag - very consistent product. My trees seem to like it just fine, and yes, I have usually soaked it, although the last batch, I just mixed and sprayed with water until it was absorbed, then stirred, watered a bit more, and let it sit for a bit. Anyways, just my two cents...

Vlad - I know where this is heading. If you're a scientist and prone to second guessing me, you shouldn't need my help; and, you should have absolutely no trouble understanding the concept and implementing it perfectly, maybe even better than I. If you're uncomfortable relying on your own powers of observation for concern about the ability to replicate a soil perfectly, make a plan that sidesteps anything you're uncomfortable with and measure 'til your heart's content, though if I started having that urge I would consider myself to be more than a little OC. There's a reason I stopped responding to your ?s over on the Water Movement thread on the Container Forum ...... but I do wish you good luck.

Al

Way when I first started here, over 10 years ago, no one knew of these mixes, in particular the 511 and gritty mixes , or even had the success they are having as such today with the CONCEPT of them. I see many here still having that success and do nothing to try and put an end to the the crap that goes on here, when ones willingness to help others is always tested or made fun of. To me, that's a lack of appreciation, loyalty and integrity.

In fact many were flocking to this site and still do for relief from poor mixes and their potted trees.. Back then, no one knew of the concept of very good structured mixes which all originated from the 511 and gritty mixes and the very people who learned that at the 'Containers Forums'. I failed my trees before I found that forum years ago and took the excitement of what I learned from the 'Container Forums' here. People were failing their trees in containers which makes me wonder why all this fuss now that they are not? And why the fuss or lack of appreciation for those trying to help them to understand them better if they are failing due to operator error?

Today what I know is that hundreds of individuals here, including close friends have benefitted from all the information brought here from the 'Containers Forums' and Al. Yes like the information dispensed above. I have nothing against Silica or anyone else except they are constantly the same one or two here that are constantly on my back for helping others and try to disqualify what I say. At least 90% of the time in disagreement of finding fault with something and anyone with common sense can see that. Just stories from another forum, people, or books, no pictures and no proof.

Sure one can fight and disagree all they want, despise the person who introduced this concept and the truth about how water 'behaves' in containers, and those like him because it doesn't work for you. But the truth is that almost everyone here has benefitted in 'some' way because of threads like this and the concepts that originated from the 'Containers Forums' even through the disagreements and personality conflicts.

It's a sad that people just don't accept it while on their quest try to sway and deter others from attaining that same success with disrespect towards those that share that truth. They accomplish nothing by harboring grudges, or trying too prove otherwise. Anyone can tell that these people have another agenda, by drawing attention away from what matters by attacking a persons character.

This is all the gratitude one gets for pointing how water behaves in containers and how to be successful? What a shame.

Thanks for your reply. I just want to make sure that I am making the 511 mix correctly.

Al, you skirted around answering Vladimir's question.

Al does a lot of skirting.

Mike, you said: It's a sad that people just don't accept it while on their quest try to
sway and deter others from attaining that same success with disrespect
towards those that share that truth. They accomplish nothing by
harboring grudges, or trying too prove otherwise. Anyone can tell that
these people have another agenda, by drawing attention away from what
matters by attacking a persons character.

I have learned a lot from Al.

Being trained as a scientist, I cannot just accept what a person says without respectfully questioning it and try to get a better understanding. I do not think anyone is trying to deter anyone from "attaining that same success" you mention. I harbor no grudge and have no agenda other than to get a better understanding of the 5:1:1 mix and have certainly never attacked anyone's character on this forum.

Vlad,with all due respect you must be just a average scientist if you squabble about some basic stuff. You leave yourself wide open. If i was you i'd go to the next more interesting subject.

Bob, so here is one more snide remark from you. I do not insult you, why do you choose to insult me?

I am done posting on this thread.

Silica: "Al, you skirted around answering Vladimir's question." - Really? Let Vladimir deal with it. Let it go or answer it yourself.

Vladimir, I promised myself I would have no interaction with you but I feel you deserve one last bit of advice/interaction from me.

"Thanks for your reply. I just want to make sure that I am making the 511 mix correctly."

If you really wanted to know, you would of taken my many many posts that I work so hard to share here seriously since I have been using if for many years, and with a bit more gratitude! But why would you since you consider my success illusions? Your loss. So to me, that's not a genuine statement.

• You have called my success and experiences illusions, my advice as being experiences not worth much weight because they are not scientific.
• Things would be better for everyone.
• I think In earned my trust and respect here after 12 years of helping others, to not be disrespected that way and my advice not taken seriously. I have not disappointed anyone yet as stated by many that have known me for years and if I did I am sorry.Your still fairly new here, much newer than many seasoned ones, and in why eyes not worth the time to be interacting with anymore. This is my last goodbye until I feel you have gratitude for the good people here, and not pretend to be, to gain support for your mistreatment of others.
• At least I had the decency to' like' much of what you posted, tried to agree with you on many things to show you were worth listening to, and I have tried to be friendly to you to no avail for reasons I can clearly see, and then can't understand why?
• Bob couldn't of said it better and Tropicocaner, spot on.

Vlad, sorry it will not happen again, it is time for me to move on. There are some really nice people on this forum, will miss them.

Silica, my advice to you would be to show some gratitude towards those that care about others here and stop being so caught up with being opposite with me. It's not because you feel my way is wrong, or because your way is better. I feel ,

It's because I came from a line of 511 users years back and in which many have claimed us 511 users as being a 'cult'. Yup, actually called that too. I am use to the barbs and insults, constant barrage of negativity in what I share and yet it has not prevented me from participating or helping here. That should say a lot.

It's also because I make sense, and , have had the best success anyone could have here with Citrus trees, and my tract record, proven pictures, tutorials on how to make these mixes work for others, and great feedback from many , and I feel you despise that fact that I am on to something. I have never insulted anyone for using what works for them, but encouraged others to work with mixes that allow proper drainage and good structure. The 'concept ' of using mixes that work this way. I have applauded those that found great bagged mixes and found what makes their trees happy, just as I have with Brian whom I consider one of my dearest friends here.

I also feel that it bothers you that I have come to respect 'Al' and consider him to be great tutor, teacher, and scientist, and all that he has shown me , and the fact that I share that with others. He has delivered what I need to trust in what is the best potential for my trees, and yet you have yet to do that for me.

You have spent the last few years pretty much proving my point in this and ignoring all the questions I have genuinely wanted to know, and ignore my requests for pictures so I can make an informed decision based on your suggestions. You have been saying you use the 511, that you never would, that bark is bad, that coco coir is better than bark, that MGGS is great, that you used the gritty mix and yet no pictures to prove it and that's seems quite suspicious to me .

I am sorry if you and I have had our issues, differences in the past but I think it's time to look past that and work together as a team. I think it's time to let us see your pictures of your trees and the mixes you use

Do you really care about what I have to offer, my requests for more proof, and my desire to work together?

For the sake of this forum and the people who yearn to enjoy coming here, we should , don't you agree? Time will tell

Mike

Mike well worded and well put! I thank you again for your help!

Bob im so sorry to hear that and I regret putting up this thread that’s caused so many heated arguments. I hope I see you on other threads. Thanks for all you’ve tried to help me with.

And thanks again al as well for posting such detailed advice.

l think it’s time to end this thread for now I will only post next summer to tell those still interested how the trees are doing. I really appreciate those that tried to help me out with my problems and to care enough to take time out of your busy days to post lengthy and detailed advice to help this confused black thumb :). Hope to see all of you on the other great threads!

Wow! Must be "that time of month" flowing around again for some of you men. :D

Jan,you are alright in my book, I just had to put my two cents in when I feel that I am dealing with a few candyssss. I am not a bit sorry for what I said.

Jinnylea, as long as everyone misses the point here, that time of the month will flow will more often.

One too many enablers here!! Only a minute handful whom have great success in these mixes and the concept have the courage to speak out against the same old trouble makers.

Jan you did nothing wrong, neither did you Bob, the only handful that had enough courage to speak out and see things for what they are. Thanks for the gratitude and understanding. Thanks for seeing this.

This happened on several other threads in just the past few weeks, so you are not to blame)

I thought jinnylea's comment was quite funny. Not particularly directed at anybody but I thought may be it is the heat wave causing some forum rage. Jan please do update when time comes but on a new thread :)

Tropic, maybe your right, just poor timing I guess. Thanks , always a good head on your shoulders and always full of gratitude)))

No it's not the heatwave, it's just a lack of appreciation and lack of support to work together that once existed here..

Observation from all the reading I've been doing, there is a lack of appreciation towards Al and Mike trying to guide others and too many conflicting statements from those whom seem to keep opposing them. Mike, thanks for all the help and guidance through the years let me be the first to tell you that your success and guidance is not based on illusion. Al, thank you for taking your time while you were sick to help clarify the concept of well draining mixes because the MGGS is a very poor draining mix in my area. Jan, I am grateful that this thread was brought up and thanks to you I learned a lot.

I'm not bothered by any of the personal stuff - it's easy to overlook. In my book, the worst thing a forum member can do is intentionally sow misinformation for no reason other than they feel a need to be contrary. It's even worse than sowing discord because it not only wrecks their own credibility, it brings the collective credibility of the entire site down a notch and diminishes us all individually as well. There used to be a group of maybe 6-8 over at Container Gardening that were gleefully amused by constantly repeating the same purposefully poor information over and over, just so they could see how many truly helpful members would respond, trying to reveal the baloney. Mike will remember this very well.

Gotta go - the flank steak is done smoking - time to move it along to the next step while the fajita veggies sear.

Al

Likewise Al! You perfectly put everything together that I have been trying to say in a few words, spot on .

And thank you for being one of the few here to have the insight to call things out the way they really are, and having the courage to say something.

Your the type of man that would help someone out from being eaten alive by a pack of wolves while many just look on. Rare indeed

Enjoy your steak)

I was just trying to lighten up the mood on this forum and I thought my timing was perfect. I could not stop giggling when I wrote it. Smiles and grins..

I appreciate each and everyone of you ... Hugs

Right back at you Jinnylea!

Hey Bob - what does this mean:

"The post with the most replies is top dog on this forum. Been trying for
years to get above 7 replies, nada it really sucks. Need some pointers,
help but I like to keep my amateur status in tact. Too simple."

Al

this thread lol

Bob, don’t go! I don’t understand where we disintegrated as a group, but it saddens me to see it. I’ve participated in threads like this before, and am glad I missed this one. I don’t have much to contribute on the technical discussions this time, but I do like and respect all of you!

I agree with Linda. I don't really know you well (i.e. as well as you can in a forum setting), but I've seen you around; and from what I've seen, I think it would be the group's loss if you were to leave. My goodness - Dylan Thomas just called me on the phone and asked me to ask you, "Not to go gentle into that good night."

Just a sec - phone ringing again ...................................... This time it was Plumber Dude. He said you had some plumbing issues and he asked me if I would forward this to you (see video), I told him I don't have your email addy, but I'll see what I can do. ".... all I can ask", was his reply. Hope this helps:

Al

Lol you guys crack me up XD hugs to all!!

Al explained exactly why this place disintegrated. It is a shame. Unfortunately I don't like everyone here like I use too for reasons explained above. I'm tired of being chased by hound dogs. Your better than me . Two in particular purposely going against just about everyting I say to ruffle my feathers which is not easy to ignore as you once told me but getting there. I'm done here too

Until your credibility and your success is treated the way mines is, posts deliberatly said to make them appear meaningless and just illusions, and the very ones who you thought would have the courage to say something don't , you'll see. By Silica and Vladimir in particular who are enabled here on this thread then hide beneath it all on other parts of this forum by fooling others with their niceness towards others. At least a tiny handful have that going for themselves, the courage to say something see things for what they are.

Helping others puts you a greater risk of being trampled on when it comes to soil mixes in particular as you can tell. Maybe that's why most are afraid to get involved or just leave.

Al! OMG I'm dying of laughter! Great channel for giggles :O)

Mike, well said. I really hope you just mean you're done with this thread and dealing with the obsessive anti 511 folks and not the forum because that would be detrimental to people trying to help their trees live. Please know that you & your expert advise are needed on the forum even though appreciation is not often shown. Hugs for having to deal with this all this crap as shown in Al's video.

Hugs to Jan too!

Mike very well put! I'm sorry you've had to deal with such things on a forum thats supposed to help instead of tear down. After all you've done along with al and others to try and help, I agree some things should not have been said by certain forum members on here. And I too agree with nanz and probably lots of others and hope you're just done with this thread and not the whole forum! Hugs!

Laura, this forum is not going kaput as long as you are staying, you means a lot to many on this forum including this dummy, me.

Al, sure glad you are here to help. I remember the stuff you had to go through with a bunch of nay-sayers years back. I could not handle it, but on the other hand the thousands that has benefited from you are still raving about you including myself. I don't follow your posts as much anymore since i am smart now. I deviate a little here and there because it is my nature, i like to experiment, it is no fun if you have to be baby-fed all the time.

Thanks, Bob. I appreciate the kind words. It always feels good to be able to think something we shared has helped other growers get more from their growing experience.

Al

I'm pretty glad to have missed all the heat on this thread too.. I normally join in these types of discussions to add in some objectivity and insight but it seems like everyone wanted different answers/replies from each other and it fell apart pretty fast.

I can see where each side is coming from though both 511 enthusiasts and 511 skeptics. I'm only a year into the citrus container growing hobby but I've also done my undergraduate studies in science so both perspectives on each growing method is valid in my opinion.

Our personal growing style and watering habits as well as humidity, temperature, precipitation will greatly affect how well different container mixes will fare. I find it all to be pretty anecdotal. There's really no way to completely replicate the results of one grower from another especially if each are in entirely different locations and environments. There's also no way to really know which method works best for you unless you try it out for yourself. So I hope we all share our experiences with each other with the focus on just sharing what we've gone through and what we know. And if there are any hiccups or questions then we should all Google, research for sources, and share our findings with each other!

I find that being objective in that way during discussions with Vlad goes very well because as a scientist he is looking at hypothetical situations from a different angle and expects different types of information to get a good grasp on the process. Which I'm completely fine with because I know what kind of information to look for and share. If you don't however then it will be more difficult to reply/respond.

From my experience with my container soil, the concepts Al has kindly shared and put much effort into explaining such as the perched water table and water movement seem to be pretty solid. It even helped me grow a beautiful root system below the root deformed one in my Meyer before dying this spring. Adding a wick previously had worked and adding a ballast during repotting was effective too. And it was all done to a mix of 50% peat 50% coarse perlite. I believe the concepts he shares with everyone can be applied to any container mix not just the 511 mix. He just advocates 511 as the best mix because it is his personal preference for container growing. I don't see him using his positive experiences with the 511 as a way for him to denounce other container mixes/methods.

I am a person that tends to kill plants through under watering which is why the 50/50 peat perlite works well for me. I like sharing this to show that other mixes are possible to grow with just as Brian does with his experiences using promix. The best container mix is the one that works the best with our personal growing habits and climate. Can't argue against that! :)

Kvetch, thanks for your comments.