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Honeycombs on the new concrete foundation footing

Mikey
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago

Hi folks, newbie to the forum, really appreciate if anyone can share your opinions on this. The concrete contractor by our custom builder just built the foundation footing, and we found that there are a lot of honeycombs on the concrete footing. This is making us really concerned, attaching a few pictures here.





Read some related articles online mentioning that this could lead to corrosion of reinforcement rods inside. Our questions are:

1. How big our problem could be.

2. Can anyone share if there is any way to remedy this issue and what are the options?

Comments (36)

  • robin0919
    5 years ago

    You need to hire an engineer to inspect. You've hired a GC that is 'only' in it for as much money they can make!!

  • just_janni
    5 years ago

    Boy, that footing doesn't look very wide.

    That much exposed aggregate and lack of fill would worry me. And yes - get an engineer to inspect for an independent 3rd party evaluation for when you demand that it be redone.

    Sorry - this is pretty poor.

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  • cpartist
    5 years ago

    I would be extremely concerned. As mentioned, you need an engineer to look over this and your other problem. Don't let them go further without getting one.

  • Mikey
    Original Author
    5 years ago
    Thanks a lot for the very informative response, I am in the middle of hiring a structural engineer to get an evaluation report.
  • worthy
    5 years ago

    Poor workmanship, but unlikely to be a structural problem if this is the only section of honeycombing. The exposed aggregate should be parged over to reduce water entry that could corrode rebar, if there is any in the footings. (It's not always speced.) Engineering oversight is always a good precaution if there is any concern.


  • corwinswan
    5 years ago

    jannicone the "toe" of a footing can be as small as an inch or 2 all the way up to many feet. Not an issue if it was framed per the structural requirements.

  • PRO
    Virgil Carter Fine Art
    5 years ago

    From this and the related post from the OP, it certainly appears that the concrete subcontractor, hired by the general contractor, certainly doesn't care much for workmanship.

    After the visit and conclusions from the structural engineer, I'd have a very serious discussion with my general contractor. If this is the "standard of the trade" that's acceptable to the GC, there's a lot of problems ahead...

  • Mikey
    Original Author
    5 years ago
    thanks a lot, guys. the structural company got back to me and ask what needs to be tested, what should I respond then?
  • dan1888
    5 years ago

    Send them pics of all your problem areas and ask them for their recommendation.

  • PRO
    Virgil Carter Fine Art
    5 years ago

    The first thing you need is an on-site visual inspection and written report by an experienced structural engineer. S/he will make the recommendations about any needed testing.

    Also call your local building jurisdiction and request a site visit and report by one of their building inspectors.

    Any actual "testing" will be determined by their inspection reports.

  • User
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    TX by any chance? Where they don’t feel the need for the constraints of licenses and inspections?

  • User
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Honeycombing this bad might be caused by an improper cement-to-water ratio that causes poor workability. In other words, the concrete was stiff and could not flow into the forms. This can be because of a bad mix or the truck had to wait too long before pouring or the temperature was extremely hot and windy but, in any case, the contractor probably did not rod or otherwise vibrate the stiff concrete to help it flow into the forms.

    Many designers make the footing a few inches wider than required regardless of the soil bearing capacity. I always require 2 bars in a 24" wide footing and I watch the pour.

  • Mikey
    Original Author
    5 years ago

    Hi folks: followups from me.

    City inspector raised a few things
    in the report. But the condition is either to address them or approved
    by EOR (structural engineer). Our builder went to talk to EOR. After
    a day, without visiting the site, the engineer approved all conditions
    as it is (just based on a few photos we sent out as examples), except
    pouring some more concrete on one of the pedestals. We are now asking
    him to do a site visit to evaluate these issues. But that would require a
    few more days.

  • dan1888
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Adding more concrete to visually improve those footing seems like a efficient fix. Because how they look affects more than their structural performance. It affect resale value. Many buyers would just walk away from that existing level of craftmanship.

  • User
    5 years ago

    I don't understand the construction. Is this a footing of a basement wall? If so, the footing will never be seen. Is the foundation wall already poured? If so, its too late to do much about the footing. What is the condition of the wall? There's little anyone can do for you without knowing what you're talking about.

  • Mikey
    Original Author
    5 years ago
    @JDS, my bad for not giving enough context, these are basement wall footings, the walls were already poured.
  • cpartist
    5 years ago

    Wei Chen, don't rely on the builder's structural engineer. Hire your own INDEPENDENT structural engineer to come out and view the problem. I would also get the city inspector out again and let them know you are very concerned.

    Is this a custom build or a tract house? If it's a tract house, I would walk away at this point.

  • Mikey
    Original Author
    5 years ago
    unfortunately, this is a custom home for us.
    we are in Seattle area and the housing market is crazy these days.

    I spent the whole Friday calling 5 strucutural engineers and no one called me back. Two engineers quoted online told me that their work has been booked out to the next month. one engineer is reluctant to take on as he dont want to deal with possible dispute with builder.

    we are still working to get an independent engineer.
  • Mikey
    Original Author
    5 years ago

    Thanks a ton for the super informative suggestions. I wouldn't haven't known that much without knowledgable people from this forum. Now we need to seek advice on how to terminate while minimizing the loss.


    Updates: We'd are pretty sure to part away from current GC. After a few rounds of discussions, he still refused to admit the quality mistakes and deem it normal. We'll meet onsite with the structural engineer (his long-term partner) tomorrow. Here are our situations:


    Other than quality issues listed in this thread, we suspect that the project has deviated the design, e.g. foundation wall was changed from 2 feet to 3 feet without notifying us. Is it regarded as a change of order without notice?


    Can anyone please share insights on what I should discuss in the meeting with GC? Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

  • User
    5 years ago

    Can you show us drawings and/or more photos?

    If the foundation is only 2 or 3 ft high, is it a crawl space?

  • Mikey
    Original Author
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    @JDS, attaching the photo here.

    Some background: due to city code, the ground floor has to be set at a certain elevation. (274'). In the original plan, the joist should be laid on top of the foundation wall. As a prerequisite, a lot of dirt must be removed from backyard.

    The GC did not remove the dirt from backyard, as a result, the joist will be underneath the foundation wall. I suspect that due to this, he has to raise the foundation wall so that the joist can be installed inside the foundation wall with joist hangers. As we know, joist hangers installation needs to be very careful, other it could lead to squeaky floors.

    In the end, we understand that there will be deviations from original plan and we are open to fix along the way. But doing a change-of-order at this scale without notification is kinda beyond our expectation. I want to if builder made such a change without our notice, what's the industrial standard way of resolution?

  • cpartist
    5 years ago

    Do you have a good construction lawyer? At this point, you may need one to get out of the contract. Good luck. Let us know what happens.

  • User
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Why did the contractor not lower the grade? Does leaving the grade alone save enough money to pay for the added foundation height? That should included in the Change Order.

    What is the red line? Is there another structure beyond? Is this an addition?

  • Mikey
    Original Author
    5 years ago

    The backyard is significantly higher than the first floor, two weeks ago he said that it is pretty expensive to excavate/dump dirt, especially after foundation is laid and big machinery cannot get into backyard. We agree to discuss further on backyard plan. But without our permission the foundation wall was raised.


    Sorry for not making notes, the red line is the new first floor level given the same elevation (hard requirement).

  • galore2112
    5 years ago

    Who designed this foundation? Even here in Dallas, TX this needs to be stamped by a licensed structural engineer. I’d contact this engineer if I was you to get this inspected.

  • Mikey
    Original Author
    5 years ago
    @galaore2112, unfortunately this is a design build project, the engineer is longtime partner of the builder,. So it is likely that the engineer will state that he can approve it , is there anything that owner can do in this case? should every design change approved by owners too?
  • Mikey
    Original Author
    5 years ago

    @cpartist, at this point both of parties want to terminate the contract. Yes, we are looking for legal service and started from the contract retrospective.

    Besides that, we finally paid extra to get engineer to evaluate the foundation. Should we ask him to focus on how the project is deviated the plan at this point?

  • just_janni
    5 years ago

    So are you saying he has to pound the joist hangers into the inside face of the foundation wall?

    Depending on what your concrete dries to (PSI) it can be a MAJOR PITA to do this correctly. Our exterior walls are at over 7000 PSI and the nail guns / concrete nails / anchors that our floor guys tried to use to attach the expansion strip to the wall simply didn't work. In that same vein - we've been drilling the concrete with a hammer drill to mount EVERYTHING with special expansion anchors.

    TO have to do this RIGHT - I am not even sure it can be done all that well / correctly - is challenging and based on what I am seeing here - your GC and his crew are not up to it.

  • Mikey
    Original Author
    5 years ago

    Thanks for the great tips, SJ and other awesome folks. Today we met with the GC and EOR. Here are updates:

    1. GC admits he commands the change of foundation wall and ground floor from the design. This is a change or order without permission, his fault.

    2. The structural engineer came on site with GC. He looks concerned about the foundation as we point out, but won't speak out in front of GC. He said that he will give a written report later.

    3. We ask for further actions from GC, he said that he won't commit to do anything before seeing the engineer's report.


    Right now we are totally concerned of the foundation's strength after seeing that engineer's face. We'll hire a 3rd party concrete testing company to do more fundamental structural/strength testing.


    Again, thanks a lot for the helpful answers, I wished I would have come to you earlier. Any further comments/suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

  • User
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I have encountered foundations that were missing footing and had to add a footing in pieces. This is called "underpinning". Soil is removed from under the wall in sections of about 4 ft or so and concrete is poured under the existing wall. In this case, each section might be longer if there is rebar in the existing footing. Its slow work but not as difficult. as it sounds. A lot depends on how compacted the soil is below the existing wall. You have the advantage of it being accessible from both sides.

  • Mikey
    Original Author
    5 years ago
    Sorry for the late response, some updates for our disputes and it is getting ugly.

    10 days ago GC, his engineer and we have an on-site meeting, and they insisted that this project is "fine" and don't need any repair. Their engineer said that he will give a report.

    We went back and hire another structural engineer and they give us a report including issues and recommendations.

    Now we pushed builders engineer to give his own evaluation report, and now he and GC refused to, stating that they need to see our report first, and "address all at once". Based on our experience, they will just rebut every issue in our report and refuse any fundamental fixes.

    Can anyone share opinions on how we can handle this now?
  • User
    5 years ago

    Impossible to say with so few photos and not seeing the report.

  • PRO
    Virgil Carter Fine Art
    5 years ago

    Time to discuss with your real estate attorney who has experience in construction issues.

  • corwinswan
    5 years ago

    Today I was going over the bidding docs for a large commercial development. In the concrete section it was noted any honeycombs should be patched as needed. That's it.

  • User
    5 years ago

    In the construction contracts I have administrated a contractor is required to make corrections to the work when the need is identified by me or in your case by you. If you have asked for a correction to the work and provided reasonable evidence that it doesn’t conform to the contract or the building code or some other accepted standard (engineers opinion) then the contractor must respond. I’ve never heard of a show down meeting where each side presents their evidence. But if that’s what your lawyer recommends do it

    Honeycomb can be patched; what needs to be determined is the structural capacity of the work. You’ve not shown us enough for us to comment on that

    If his engineer says it’s adequqte it’s your turn to present evidence that it’s not. I’m not sure if you need to offer a solution for a correction yet but it might expedite the correction.

    I once told a construction contract lawyer that I was afraid the other side would counter our position and he said “let them”.

    Does your contract call for arbitration or mediation?