Question seems along the lines of one raised in this recent thread: https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/5181520/m-grandiflora-and-snow-load-damage

Certain shapes are more prone to damage the others. Plants from climates with heavy, wet snows are probably more resistant, and/or able to more quickly recover. (e.g., southern magnolia - the example I cited appeared very damaged, but was not) Birches and Redbuds are often seral, often short-lived species.

That thread is exclusively on the magnolia grandiflora. None of those magnolias were damaged at all at my workplace and we have several 40 ft + ones. I guess this thread is geared more towards conifers

trees are trees ... most times.. rules dont change based on type .... they may be honed to specific trees.. but the base remains the same ...

some of it is genetics ... predispositions to certain risks ... of which you usually have no control ... other than not planting them in the first place ... and its real hard to predict those once a decade weather events ....

some of it is gardeners taking plants out of their native areas ... and using them in non-native situations ... e.g. it might not have the problem of heavy snow.. if you were in a warmer area of the same zone ... no snow.. no similar damage ... never forget.. zone is simply low possible winter temp ... not that all cultural variables will be the same ...

part of it is poor nursery stock ... often .. a single trunk plant.. will shed snow.. but with arbs, lets say ... they develop multiple trunks ... and in doing so.. create dead wind zones within the plant ... where heavy snow simply fills the interior.. and as they bend/open .. it gets even worse ....

will they pop back up ... perhaps ... most of the way ... but usually they dont do it completely ... and they dont look great ...and you have to accept a 'new look' ...

phone rang.. i lost my train of thought.. lol ... maybe more later ....

ken

It tends to be more related to genetic traits than anything else. Trees with more upward oriented branches, and especially those that remain evergreen like some conifers and the magnolias referred to, just are more inclined to catch and trap snow than those with more pendulous or even strictly horizontal branches. And heavy snow will bend them down. And it doesn't really matter if the arbs are single leadered - they still have that tightly upright branching habit and can/will experience bending or breakage in a heavy, wet snow.

And some trees tend to be weak wooded - callery pears are well known for this, as are many other very fast growing trees. Heavy snow or ice loads even on bare branches can cause damage.

I guess a tree with a broader canopy makes it more susceptible then. Maybe I should choose narrow or fastigiate cultivars of the trees I like to avoid this. But yes.. how could I forget this. So many of those pears at my workplace were destroyed. Big branches falling down everywhere.. I spent half the day cutting and loading them up to dump it in the pile. How about a weeping cherry(nongrafted)? They are very fast growing but weeping in nature so does it make it more or less susceptible to damage from snow ice? I didn't really recall any of them being damaged from the recent storms.

"I guess a tree with a broader canopy makes it more susceptible then. Maybe I should choose narrow or fastigiate cultivars of the trees I like to avoid this."

I must not have explained myself well :-)) It is the exact opposite! Broad or spreading canopy trees tend to have more horizontal branching and are typically able to handle snow loads well. It is the columnar or fastigiate forms that tend to produce the more vertically-oriented branch structure which can collect snow and cause bending or breakage.

I started the thread on Magnolia grandiflora because this is exactly what I noticed over the course of multiple winters. Within the very same species, the damage occurred on strongly vertical growers (columnar/fastigiate) trees and NOT on more horizontal, sprawling trees. Snow was seen to be trapped by fastigiate trees while horizontal branches merely bended temporarily, not snapping off. Assume this had to do with the physics of differences in their shape, and independent of species. Conifers, I cannot speak to, as most of my conifers are deciduous and my broadleaved trees and shrubs are mostly evergreen. I still don’t know what I will do with my fastigiate Magnolias. Hate to see the seasonal abuse of wet snow.

Note, I DID notice considerable damage to horizontal, deciduous magnolias after that freak Halloween snow fall of several years ago. Trees were still green and in full leaf. Probably the worst snow damage I have ever seen with trees, with trees being split in half!

Oops sorry I always mix up the word horizontal and vertical. But then I'll say an example but sciadopitys verticillata 'joe kozey' a fastigiate umbrella pine apparently is known to handle snow and ice loads much better compared to the species. Why would a fastigiate form on this tree make it less susceptible to damage from snow then??

Jurasico, I remember that. I was still a senior in high school when that snowstorm in october happened and I'd say that is like a once in a lifetime rare occurrence.

Yes, East Asian weather is much more predictable than ours. You're never going to hear of Beijing being socked in by a huge "Nor'easter" with a couple feet of snow, like Boston, because the Siberian High pressure system permanently blocks such lows from forming. In 2010, they had 3 inches in a single storm, which was the biggest snowfall since 1951!

Parts of Korea can get a little more, and elevated parts get it a little more reliably, through a mechanism that's almost like lake effect snow. It still isn't the formation of a huge low pressure system that tracks up from the subtropics, as happens here.

Years ago on HP&S board, someone linked to a long established webcam on Hokkaido Island. It had started way back in the mid or late 90s. You could look through the archives and see that the snow always started in the same week of early December, and always melted in roughly the same period of late March, IIRC.

I agree with you on that.. Japan has a pretty set season and everything usually goes by schedule in terms of weather. Although I still wonder how a zone 10a location(in Yokohama, Japan) can possibly get snow.

Agreed...some of the snowfall figures for Japanese cities are staggering, when you consider how high the average yearly minimum temperature is. There are places on the west coast that average several FEET of snow per year, but hardly ever go below 25F. Must be a terrible, slushy mess all throughout winter there. (but in the mountains, of course, the snow is presumably more powdery) The difference is again due to the factors mentioned above; when the US east coast has rain in winter, it's usually because a system is pulling up warm air from the Gulf. If this so happens to interact with enough cold air and form a cyclone, you get a nor'easter. OTOH, west coast of Japan is getting snow caused by incredibly cold Siberian air passing over the warm Sea of Japan. It never really stops because of the Siberian High pressure system, that influences weather patterns all the way over to the various 'stans. It's like a non-stop version of Lake Effect snow. Due to the almost 4X greater surface area and much, much greater depth, it doesn't substantially freeze though, as most of the Great Lakes can.

Right if it wasn't for the pressure from Siberia and Russia central Japan would probably be snowless. I'd love to have Japan weather minus the extremely unbreathable, brutal humidity and heat in summer. I guess we eastern coasters are unfortunately plagued with a terrible climate here that negatively impacts many of our plants...

the more you study climate though, the more you realize, nowhere is perfect. Of course, some places are a lot closer to perfect than others! I would love the stability of Japan, but I would miss the rareish summer cold fronts that can comes through. Even in July, I can remember nights in the suburbs of DC that were in the 50s, followed by a crisp day around 80F. That can happen in say, Tokyo, but it's rarer. So, I guess once in a while our lack of stability can be nice...!

And and at least we have a great variety of climates in the US, even if we are missing a few highly desirable ones like summer wet highland subtropical. (Hawaii is closest, but as far as my research shows, because it's an island none of it is summer wet/winter dry) In Japan, if you want to experience a subtropical desert or dry climate, you're out of luck, and in fact are going to have to fly quite far to experience one. OTOH, most people living in the eastern US are a one shot, reasonable flight to say, Austin TX.

IDK......I think the Puget Sound area of the PNW is pretty close to perfect :-) Never too hot, never too cold but with distinct seasons. And an obvious lack of major storms like typhoons, hurricanes, tornadoes or nor'easters. We can get a few windstorms and the occasional Arctic blast from time to time in winter but they tend to be short lasting and nothing compared to what many on the east coast experience every winter. And with a whole lot less snow and ice!! It is not even as wet/rainy as many believe, especially in summer.

"never too cold"

Well, almost never?

http://komonews.com/weather/scotts-weather-blog/just-how-bad-was-the-winter-of-1949-1950

And, I mean, my point is, North America IS the most capricious of any of the continents, when it comes to temperature excursions and the relative frequency. Clearly. No matter where you are, except maybe Catalina Island and Key West, SOME temperature will be experienced, SO FAR out of your norms as to cause damage to some regionally cultivated plants (as opposed to "native"), is likely to happen, at some point.

Sure there are times I wish I'd moved to the PNW or Sonoma County, but I'd probably live in fear of winters like 1990, 1949 etc. Contrast with a place like Hobart, Tasmania - roughly the same climate as Seattle or Portland - All Time Record low 27F instead of 0F! Actually - Christchurch NZ and Portland, OR might be a more fair comparison - 19F record low, versus -3F.

But yeah, clearly, for gardening as defined by me...the strip from Sonoma Co. CA up to Port Angeles, WA, is the best you're going to get in the CONUS.

One seriously cold winter in a lifetime is hardly anything to get overly concerned about :-)). And reports of the winter of 1990 tend to be exaggerated - it was not that bad uniformly across the area - the heavy snowfall was the biggest issue. The cold temperatures were completely in line for what our winter lows are often predicted to be - 20's and maybe a drop into the high teens....and only for a week or so, max. In fact, my garden at that time was undamaged by either the cold or the snow.

Don't believe everything you hear reported from others living in my area :-) Some, one in particular, like to be the harbingers of gloom and doom and claim these sorts of freak winters wipe out every marginally hardy plant in the area. Doesn't exactly happen like that!!

Idk, even though I complain alot about my climate I think north NJ is like the best you can get. A little more north and many of my favorite plants won't be hardy, more snow than here and little more down south it'll be too hot for both me and my plants(I despise hot weather Btw) and you face all sorts of fungus diseases. I guess part of me saying this has to do with me living in NJ almost my whole life so far and being too used to it.

Actually, I am going to take my words back. The more I'm looking into the PNW the more I want to live there now! PNW has like the best climate you can ask for... maybe the only concern I have is if my Japanese conifers and my weeping cherry will thrive there. I'm starting to really get sick and tired of our climate and weather here.. 5 noreasters in March and a potential for a 6th one this weekend I'm done. I guess I will start looking for jobs in eastern Oregon and convince my partner to come with me

Pretty much any conifer will thrive here......there is a very good reason that most of the wholesale growers of conifers (and most other nursery stock as well) for the entire US are located in the PNW!

Yay. Ok and about prunus.. do you ever come across big ones like the one I posted in my other thread? How common are they?