I hate the word "fat". Honestly, it's so degrading. To me it's like the "n" work or the "r" (re$ard) word. Words that I will never use. I can't believe those women would say those things, knowing these are your family! I mean, honestly, if I even THOUGHT it, I would never come out and say it. I don't know why these women did. I can only think it must be as Robo said and they need to feel better about themselves. Hope that did it for them! NOT.

It's not just women who can be unkind - have you never heard a guy look at a woman (in a photo, real life, move whatever) and say 'woof'? I have. Plenty of times, or there's been some other remark that's equally offensive and based only on something physical. Even my DH who is very much a girl's guy will see an actress that he hasn't seen in a while in a new role and say 'gee, what happened to her?' and I have to remind him that 20 years happened to her - and me and him! When I hear women or men comment in these ways I've learned the only response necessary from me is some thing simple like 'ouch, that was unkind'. Lectures don't work but a simple comment is more likely to get replayed in their head.

It sounds like they just aren't nice people. But it sounds like you work around many not nice people. Is it a Philly socioeconomic culture thing? "I'm from "insert neighborhood here" and we always speak our mind and don't care what you think so deal with it".

My mother was a very proper Bostonian and when she encountered that sort of behavior her standard response would be in a sweet voice, did you enjoy saying that because I didn't enjoying hearing it and they she'd turn and walk away.

Yes well I suppose it's bad enough when men objectify women, but one, that's the opposite gender, and two they are depersonalizing the woman which is bad enough, but on the other hand it's not personal, then.

With women (or men) doing this to people of their own gender, it's a bit different, it's more personal and they seem to know what to go for with surgical precision.

Again I don't want this to be about body weight so much as the behavior, but I would not call my niece overweight outside cultural norms in my area. Personally I felt the very full dress did actually make her look heavier than she is, particularly contrasted with the bridesmaids dresses which were individual variations of dresses from the Art Deco period, thin and beaded. But it was still a beautiful dress.

I think to some extent jealousy may be part of it...I didn't want to bring this up, because I didn't think it was relevant but maybe it is: the ceremony was in a historical landmark and the reception was at the Ritz and there were literally hundreds of wedding pictures in both formal and documentary style--and it was black tie optional. It was a very fancy event, and she and her husband are clearly on a certain trajectory for success. But that's beside the point. In her circle that's how the weddings are.

I think it's all personal. It's towards a person. I was too sick to notice if I were being fat shamed but I definitely noticed it when two boys under the age of 10 called my very sick older sister a fat cow when we were swimming at a pool. I was shocked silent. it seemed very personal to me and when did they learn that? Natural Born bullies!

I think of this a little differently. First of all, corporate cultures differ and what's acceptable in one business isn't always in another. I've worked for S&P500 companies for almost 20 years, but I've also worked in smaller companies. Every workplace is a little different.

Second, and more important, I take the woman/man thing out of the equation for a minute and think about Power. In relationships sex and money = power. He/She who holds the keys to the castle...

In work and personal relationships, the keys can be different. To say something negative in a definitive way is to assert power. Maybe what they were doing is exerting power by belittling someone in your family To you. The women weren't the object of the remark, but the excuse for making such a remark. Made enough of an impact to post here, so maybe it worked.

Power can be exerted by comments, conference calls (you need to cancel yours because mine is more important), vacation schedules, cliques. I saw a post on another board here recently about a work clique that made me think the same thing.

So back to the man/woman thing. Women have sexual power by holding the keys to their castle, but in a come-hither way. Men have sexual power by taking it. "I'll grab her by the...", "MILF", the inequity of nudity in the movies....the list goes on.

So two men, culturally speaking, don't have to compete because they "take". Two women have to compete because they "invite". Or maybe they don't, but that's a separate conversation.

I've worked with or known men as well as women who just cannot say anything nice about another man/woman or even agree if someone else says something complimentary about said man/woman. Funky hit the nail on the head: confidence. As if a compliment detracts from self.

I think it is just a simply lack of class and knowing proper behavior. Somebody will probably call me an old fuddy duddy (I am not really THAT old!!) but you never hear comments like this from older generations. There are things that one may think personally but never, ever vocalize because that is not what is done in public or polite society!!

Lack of class- failure to display decency, respect or nobility in both word and deed - is something that is pervasive in modern culture. IDK how or where this happened but many people today feel it is perfectly acceptable to open their mouthes and blurt out whatever rude, disparaging or unpleasant comments come to mind. Like they are somehow the arbitiers of what is 'right' or acceptable or that their opinions matter to anyone other than themselves. That it is demonstrated and supported from some of the highest levels (like the current White House) on down seems to give it even more validation. Really a very sorry state of affairs!!

I was always taught that if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

About twenty years ago, I got tired of feeling like I should have said something, spoken up or defended someone but while I pondered what to say......the moment passed. I think sometimes it’s a habit that started for all of the thoughtful reasons discussed above. Prodded by feeling guilty for not “speaking up” and being so disappointed sometimes by the people making those kinds of remarks I started saying, “Gosh (or wow or damn), that was rude. Did you mean to be rude”?

Wow! This is interesting!

Sadly, I can be a little judgemental too. My Wife & I just happen to agree about most things if we're "people-watching". And, as many of you know, I'm too heavy. I AM down 30 lbs now since mid-December...mid 270's now. Thankfully, I'm tall (6'3") with a longer torso, so it's HELL getting in most medium/smaller cars. When you're as "flexible as a 2x4", my DW says to me..... ;-)

My point is....people probably judge me too, & maybe harshly. I'm just trying to give them "less to judge"!

;-)

Just my observation, but I think that people who make comments like that are unhappy with themselves. They are dissatisfied with their own appearance and/or their lives. They try to validate or make themselves feel better with their comments & would probably be surprised at how negative they are perceived. I have a now former friend who is like that. After many years I cut ties with her as I could no longer tolerate the negativity.

Gardengal48, do you realize that you started your post by disparaging entire generations of people by saying "you never hear comments like this from older generations"? And BTW, that is patently untrue, my own mother, age 88, is one of the worst offenders I have ever met, no one escapes her nasty ass comments, eye rolls and jabs, not even her children and grandchildren.

I would not expect such critical comments from co-workers when sharing family wedding photographs. It was kind of you to share the wedding photos to begin with. If they could not find anything nice to say, well, that is sad and speaks volumes about both women. How sad for you to joyfully share a special family event with these women and receive THAT response.

No, it is not typical of the women I know. My guess is these women have low self-esteem and find the need to belittle other women, something I just do not understand. I thought those days were long gone and it saddens me to read this.

I have a very nice "church lady" friend who when she hears a rude comment she says in a quiet voice, "Oh honey, you are going to choke on all that snot you are putting out!' Some are shocked, some give a surprised laugh, and some get real embarrassed. So funny!

Geeze Louise!! You people can find fault with everything!! I wasn't "disparaging" anyone and maybe I should have tempered that statement with 'you seldom hear comments like that from older generations'. And I believe that to be true as there used to be much more of a focus on decorum and politeness than there is now.

And with regards to the 88 y.o.mother, ill-breeding, rudeness and no manners can be present anywhere and at any age........it just seems to be overly commonplace with the current generation.

And I think you might have made my point.

I would also say… Some straight women probably let out the cattiness around gay men more than anyone else. They may not know many gay men and just respond to the catty caricatures on TV.

I don't know, I feel like to some extent it sounds like a number of people would play right into the negativity of this situation.

"Calling people out" (I don't even like the term) has become a very popular thing to do, but I think it is completely and utterly pointless. I think it diminishes the person who does it, and does not improve the behavior of the person being called out.

I never scold or raise my voice to any adult outside my immediate family and this includes people who have married into my family. I've almost completely ignored them on occasion, but I would never engage in any sort of conflict with them. And some of my colleagues at work its the same thing, I am polite, I work with them but ultimately I don't feel attached enough one way or the other to get involved.

I will politely disagree with racist/homophobic/ableist talk, not so much to teach my interlocutor a lesson, but so that I don’t feel complicit and so that anyone else around doesn’t see me as complicit. I would like for racist etc. People to feel more alone in the world and less supported in their views.

for rude/catty talk, I have some sort of force field around me from having been bullied that means most people don’t try it, and when they do, I freeze it out very quickly. It takes someone pretty determined to bully me to my face these days.

I don't think I know people who would say the things your work colleagues said. If it had happened to me, I think my unfiltered reaction to them would be "your crazy, she is beautiful." Because I am sure she is.

I am a pretty critical person, but I usually find wedding photos to be moving and very pretty. The happiness alone is something one has to react to. I don't really recall ever seeing a photo of a bride on her wedding day and thinking something negative. Kind of like baby photos (well maybe except brand-newborns, they can be funny looking). Anyway, i think they have to be reaching to even see the photo in a negative light is what I mean. They want to cut you down for some reason.

I have been trying to think of even one person I know who would speak like that about another woman, especially to a man, or write about others that way. I worked with many young teachers in their 20s as well as every other age before I retired last summer. Not one if them ever said anything remotely unkind about someone else's looks, weight, clothes, etc.

Those women are petty. They're crass and rude and superficial. They'd make those nasty comments regardless of their size because they're just mean girls.

If someone cannot find one nice thing to say about a photo of an obvious wonderful occasion then they're just miserable people.

I'll admit to occasionally thinking a critical thought but I'd never say anything nasty, especially to a relative! When my niece got married she had packed on the makeup, false eyelashes, fake tan, the whole Kardashian look so she'd look pretty in the photos. I was their officiant so I saw her from inches away and the entire time I kept thinking, you're such a beautiful girl, why did you do this to your face?

Not all women are small as your coworkers are. It's difficult for kind people to think like they do. If you're not comfortable making a snappy comeback to them then you'll just have to accept that they're unhappy people. Sorry they put a sour spin on your lovely memories.

neetsie,

Honestly, comments like this have no effect on me at all. They certainly would not affect my feelings about the event. Besides, that I don't think she's "fat" and I did think that was it very full myself and she would have looked thinner in something else . But it doesn't mean that it wasn't a nice dress, and really has nothing to do with anything one way or the other).

And I don't think that my niece would care what they thought either. She is completely comfortable in her own skin.

(They also made comments about the fact that she chose to walk up the aisle by herself because she did not want to be "given away". I just thought this was another indicator of her own...self-reliance, or whatever you want to call it).

I was just more interested in the phenomenon. One of the women for sure is overly sensitive to any perceived slight. She will say anything she wants about anyone else but is easily insulted herself.

Women dress for other women, not for men. We aren't that fussy.

Women who care about what other women think about their clothes dress for other women.

easily insulted

When I read that description, I thought back to people in my past who were easily insulted. Very few were men.

Lots of good takes on this topic!

I will add that I'll bet those women may not even be aware how mean their comments were. I have a sister who is a good person, and I love her very much, but she is forever remarkably, un-self-consciously, negative about almost everything, esp. others' good news. She doesn't directly insult someone, as the coworkers did, but she never fails to point out the negative in something. She reminds me of an elderly woman I met years ago, who started every single sentence out of her mouth with "no" - even when she was agreeing with you.

And yes, our culture has conditioned us to judge others' appearances in unhealthy, unhelpful ways. I think a good amount of blame can be put on the advertising industry, along w/ entertainment media.

Maybe this is not completely related, but I read this article earlier today:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/opinion-yarrow-eating-disorders-white-women_us_5a945db3e4b0699553cb1d00

I can't imagine anyone I know saying that about another woman. It's especially disturbing because they chose to say it to you, a person who obviously loves your niece enough to want to share photos of her special day.

I always think things like this are internalized oppression - where women are judged on so many superficial things, they perpetuate that by doing it to others. Because they (we) are told in so many ways that we are "less than", that we are "other" that they don't even know they don't have to believe it. So it becomes their way of thinking and behaving, too.

I have never in my life experienced people behaving the way you describe. If they did, I would make a mental note, "jerks" and try to avoid their company. I've done this my whole life. Sometimes you can't. That's why god made earbuds and MP3 players or whatever iteration is current. Why they do it is because they weren't taught manners as children or don't care. Current social norms are getting coarser and coarser, but that doesn't make it pleasant. It kinda snowballs but I fight against it.

At first I sort of had a hard time believing the people who say they don't know a single person like this or that they've never experienced it.

However, I work in a field where the "boss" or possibly the person with the most education at the top has a 50-50 chance of being male or female and the support staff has about a 95% + chance of being female, and I teach in a field where at probably 90+% of the people in that profession are female. We usually have one or two male students out of two dozen in each year.

So my interaction is going to be completely different. I am almost always the only male faculty member present. There are others but by function we do not work together.

I have experienced an awful lot of what I was describing in various forms and degrees and often it is given in the form of "advice" or "motherly advice". Things I personally have heard about myself: I don't think women would speak like this at all to each other, and a man certainly could not get away with speaking to a woman like this, at all not in a work environment.

"Aww, you cut your hair, you look so much better when you let your hair grow a little bit"

"You need a haircut"

"Aww you shaved off your beard, I like you better with a beard"

"You know having a beard makes you look so much older because it has a lot more grey in it than your hair"

"You really need your teeth cleaned they are very stained"

"Oh, I dunno, I don't think that color is very good for you".

"You shouldn't wear tan scrubs. You look like you are in prison, not a professional."

"Your tan scrubs look like you are in prison...probably for child molestation, lolol"

"Grey scrubs emphasize how grey your hair is getting"

"Your face is all rashy, do you think you are allergic to something/"

(yes, actually I realize I have dermatitis because I am sensitive to a lot of things)

"You are getting too thin"

"You are getting too fat"

"You look better with a bit of a belly, more like someone your age".

"You look terrible, are you having trouble sleeping?"

"You look like a little boy when you wear that cap and sneakers".

In my experience women say things like this to men a lot, unthinkingly because somehow they think men need their help and they know that men are relatively thick skinned and not easily insulted. And I hear the same sorts of things said to the various guys in the program by the female students as well, like it's no big deal.

Actually it's not much of a big deal, it just rolls off, except that I sometimes imagine what it would be like if I turned around and talked to them that way.

"Well bless your heart" is the appropriate response to all the above.

Those comments are inappropriate. They remind me of things my own mother said to me, my brothers and my kids - but she was in her 90's and had become notoriously outspoken as she aged.

Has your office sponsored Sensitivity Training sessions? These women need a repeat course. Not only are the comments out of line but they are unprofessional. Even if these women are not professionals themselves they still need to adhere to a standard of behavior where personal comments are not suitable in a work - school - office environment. It makes me wonder what the atmosphere is like that these women feel so free to speak with such familiarity.

I've never had any training that gave much thought to men, only women.

OMG, Pal, I would want to wring their necks. A lot of not-so-passive aggression floating around there.

Pal, your last post reinforced my theory that these women are making a power play by belittling you and things associated with you. Sounds like they go with what they think works. People find all kinds of ways to passive-aggressively assert their power in the workplace.

There's a great read on the topic of communication between men and women called You Just Don't Understand by Deborah Tannen, PhD. I think she has several others, including one on workplace communication. I could probably benefit from reading that one myself! If you want to get esoteric on the topic of women, try M. Ester Harding. I have yet to be able to follow my way through half, let alone a whole book, but what I can follow is deep and fascinating.

I deal with men repeating what I just said so they own it, interrupting me (which I do way too much of myself) and ignoring my input. Like you, I decide when they can have it and when I've had it with them. Then I look at my 401k and dream.

These women have found a flawed way to - in their estimate - get under your skin and they do it repeatedly. They may, or may not, be totally aware of it because the habit is embedded. They may or may not do the exact same thing to others. I'd guess they do. If they were smart, they would adjust their approach to their intended target. But often this base level of communication doesn't come with a lot of intelligence. And certainly they have zero social intelligence.

I will say that I wouldn't say any of the above to a man or a woman in my office. Most of them I wouldn't even say to my own brother. I really can't think of anyone I know who would say any of the above to someone who wasn't their husband or a very close friend.

I think you are in a work circle that is especially insensitive and rude.

Sheesh Pal I don't know how you can stand it. If you don't want to say anything can you at least stand back and slowly look them up and down with an expression of disgust on your face?

Spanish, oh, yes, absolutely this:

But often this base level of communication doesn't come with a lot of intelligence.

These women sound like they are pretty jealous and are desperately trying to level the playing field.

At the risk of sounding terribly old fashioned, the only thing these rude women need is remedial course in good manners. Funny thing is they have a teacher in front of them, Pal, and they are too far behind in the coursework to notice.

It's no different than why are certain men this way. I know plenty of men with bad attitudes/behaviors/talk and some people just need a kick or maybe an intervention.

Some people aren't the kind you want to be around.

What they need is a trip to HR, these kind of comments have no place in the work environment, and should not be tolerated.

I agree with Lake, but i bet there is no real "HR" and the "tone comes from the top". Having only worked in large companies, I am always shocked at the lack of professionalism in so many workplaces. That might sound snotty but the worst work stories I hear are usually (not always) from smaller concerns.

There is an HR.

And several women talk about going to HR on a regular basis, but mostly how they are treated by two women higher up in seniority (and perhaps rank to some extent). There were three women at the top seniority wise, the current department head and two others who had been department head at one time. (it is supposed to rotate between people).

Two of the women have hated each other for 20+ years and the third woman has always really been the puppet of one of them.

One of the really negative angry ones in the 20 year standoff finally retired, and currently the other is on sabbatical. But the current department head (3rd person) feels a bit vulnerable I think because the one who just steamrollered over everything is on sabbatical.

Honestly I feel as a male, I kind of get through all of this unscathed because I don't get involved in the interpersonal dramas. But there are a couple bullies at the top, to some extent, it's clear who they like and don't like; it's clear which students they like and don't like--it's just not very professional.

But really... I can't imagine going to HR over this in my case. What am I supposed to say? "They give me repeated, unsolicited advice about my haircut, my facial hair, my weight and some of my clothing".

I just don't know what good it would do. Believe it or not I have a relatively good working relationship with everybody there and a somewhat friendly work relationship with some of them. I felt one great relief when the one angry woman retired and another great relief when the other went on sabbatical. And yet, they were really two of the people who never said anything like the above to me. They were professional in that respect. They were just difficult to work with because they were always right, always the best at everything and uniformly condescending to the students.

Most of the women who have said the stuff to me are generally fairly nice people all things considered. Not always to each other.

So I don't think going to HR and tattling about the running commentary would do anything to improve relations with anybody.

This is a blip on my radar, really. But despite the fact that it doesn't really bother me much (these are not the types of comments I actually mull over, believe me)...I just can't help noticing that there is a gender-biased double standard ( albeit probably one of the few against males, really ). We are trained to say absolutely nothing personal about women coworkers and to tread very carefully with questions or comments about race, socioeconomic status, sexual orientation, transgender status, appearance etc. of our patients. But I bet if I went to HR about the "unsolicited advice" and commentary it would be treated as trivial...and maybe it is. Maybe we've become ultra-sensitized to take offence at the most offhand comment. I know some people whose favorite pastime seems to be dissecting everything that was said as to real meaning, ulterior motive etc. and so forth and finding something to be offended about.

I get that you let these comments roll off your back (mostly, that you bother posting about them makes me think there is a twinge or two there), but what about the next man? He may not be as accepting of what are, IMO, highly inappropriate comments, especially if they are made in front of students. The comments are of such a personal, and sexual nature that a male employee could claim a hostile work environment fairly handily. If I was in management at your place of employment, I would want to know about these comments, they are a hostile workplace suit waiting to happen. If your HR isn't up to dealing with this, you could try general counsel's office, internal audit or the president/CEO's office. Believe me, no sane person in leadership wants this kind of crap happening, they know the cost in dollars, retention and morale.

I believe it is a mistake to extrapolate one's personal experience out to the larger population, since one has only a very small sample to work with.

A company/org. is like a classroom, a family, a team, isn't it? The quality of leadership is reflected by its members. Remember the old saying, "A fish rots from the head down"?

I'm dealing w/ that right now where I work. Our leadership are 2 rookies and we have what I consider a poison pill among us who sh#t-talks everybody behind their back and flouts policy, rules & direct instructions AND is looked up to by some of his coworkers.

There's a reason why, by and large, I have always preferred working with men.

Its competitive behavior I believe. Women are really pitted against each other by marketers and media, and so I believe develop these defensive behaviors. Its become so ingrained in our culture that its just a part of it now. Its like the boss that tries to pit one employee against another to get better performance but it just makes the environment toxic. That's my take anyways, you are right pal, it happens all the time. Men are not held to the same standards as women and are not valued the same way, for women its looks, for men its their money.

Pshaw! Jerks are jerks. I've worked with both men and women who acted the way you describe, although perhaps the snark was about different things. And I have worked with plenty of women who have never, ever made those kinds of comments. They know how to behave professionally at work, even on lunch break!!

This thread has made me thankful that my workplace seems to be mostly free of this kind of drama, at least from what I have observed. People might privately comment on someone's work performance, but I can't think of the last time I heard anyone comment on someone's appearance (other than the occasional compliment directly to the person).

15-20 years ago on a Dr Phil episode, he said something that has stayed with me. He said people most often comment rudely about others on about things they do not like about themselves or are afraid of becoming. Jealousy also comes to mind.

I have a family member with low self-esteem. The first thing she comments on is looks (weight is usually first, followed by physical appearance, hair, make up and/or clothing). It seems she cannot help herself, even when we've pointed out to her numerous times there is more to a person than their appearance.