If you are noticing that stuff now on NEW cabinets, it ain't gonna get any better with wear and weight. How soon do you want to remodel your kitchen? How long do you plan on staying?

The upgrade sounds significant. (in good way)

@jannicone I plan to live here for about 20 years, but could be less or more depending on changing circumstances. I don't want to remodel my kitchen in that time, if possible.

It sounds like the construction of the standard cabinets are about as low level as they come. Is that $ 8400.00 above what you are already paying for cabinets, or overall cost? If that is additional cost, it seems excessive. Probably because they are being supplied by the builder and you are a bit at their mercy.

Personally, I prefer (and any installer I've ever worked with!) to use all plywood construction cabinets. Here are some other construction preferences:

Smooth close, full extension undermount slides have become pretty standard.

Full overlay looks better than standard. You don't see the frame of the cabinet around all the doors and drawers.

Definitely 3/4" shelves.

Flush (3/4") finished plywood ends on all exposed ends is an added bonus.

Reverse raised shaker style door - If you get a shaker style with a thin veneer center panel, you will get that rattling sound when you close the door. Better made shaker styles have a reverse raised center panel, which is thicker and more substantial.

I will always push for higher quality in your cabinetry. You may not be able to tell the difference from across the room, but you will when you open the doors and drawers for years to come.

A brand new cabinet should never be warped or "loose". Once they are installed and everything is adjusted properly, that should not be the case. If it is, it should be replaced by the builder. Check everything before countertops and crown moldings go in. it's a lot harder to swap things out at that point. Installer should note any issues, but that doesn't always happen.

I hope this helps a little!

Thanks Main Line! Yes, it is unfortunately $8,400 above what I'm already paying. This isn't a fully custom home though, so I don't know the actual price breakdown of the standard cabinets, as they are just included in the $365k base price of the house.

Sounds like the upgraded cabinets are probably a worthwhile investment, even if I might be getting ripped off a bit, but overpriced upgrades are pretty normal for builders as that's where they make a lot of their money I imagine.

Not all particle board is created equally. There are different grades of it just as there are different grades of plywood. There's no need to upgrade to plywood if these cabs are constructed with good quality construction board (38-42 pound, 3 layer composition board).

Good quality particle board has greater dimensional stability and doesn't warp due to temperature changes. The downside is that should you ever have a leak in the kitchen, particle board swells more than plywood and if it becomes saturated (think really bad leak over time), it's generally not salvageable.

There are 3 types of drawer construction (from least to most expensive): butt and staple, dowel (aka pin) and glue, and dovetail. Dovetail drawers are seen as the gold standard and have the ooh and aah factor going for them but they aren't any sturdier than dowel (aka pin) and glue construction, which is less expensive. If the cab company offers this drawer construction option, choose it and apply the savings towards upgrading to drawers for base cabinets. Full extension, soft close drawers are worth every penny of upgrade cost.

Full overlay vs standard overlay is generally a cosmetic issue.

3/4" shelves are going to be less likely to warp over time than 1/2" shelves. You may not notice the difference in an 18" wide cabinet but you most likely will in a 36" wide cabinet, especially if there's a heavy load on the shelf.

"...some of the issues I have with the standard cabinets. Some of the doors are warped..."

Not good. Are they also 1/2" thick? That's likely the reason why and hopefully something you'll avoid with Shaker door design. We opted for reverse panel inserts over plywood inserts for our Shaker style cabinets for two reasons, the primary one being that plywood inserts take up stain differently than the solid wood stiles (also affected by how stain is applied).

Mine:

The reverse panel shows up better here (my island cabinet door).

Bottom line with this is to ask how they construct and with what material cabinet doors. Hopefully they will be 3/4" thick, not 1/2" thick.

HTH!

One more thing. $8,400 over 20 years comes out to $420/yr or about $8/week. So while the upgrade is on the high side, in the long run, it's a drop in the bucket. As Main Line Custom Kitchens, Ltd. wrote, the standard cabinets are about as cheap as they come. I'd upgrade with no second guessing the decision, despite the upgrade cost.

It's true there are different levels of quality in particle board and plywood. But my guess is that the low level cabinets are not of the higher quality you would want.

I think you will be happier with a higher quality cabinet. Make sure you get a clear picture of exactly what you are getting with the upgrade and do a little due diligence to make sure you are getting what you want. If you are not sure, clearly this is a good forum to get answers! Good luck!!

Kountry Wood? No thanks. Don’t even let them put them in your house.

Get a sink base cabinet, drop in a sink. Hook up the range and fridge. That is enough for a certificate of occupancy. Wait until you close and rip that out and do something else

Excellent advice. I'm thinking even Ikea is better than what you're getting.

Are the standard cabinets representative of the quality of other fixtures and finishes? I sure hope not for your sake. What you show is what I'd expect in a "cheap" home, not in an average priced home. But that might be what's the norm for new construction especially where demand is high.

A friend and I were shocked at the quality of cabinets and finishes put into new homes in a development that abutted our neighborhood of middle class homes built in the early '90s. The new homes were priced $100K-$150K higher than recently sold, remodeled and remodeled, reappraised homes. We expected that big price tag to come with luxury features. Nope. The cabinets in the display homes were already showing wear, the toilets were the absolutely cheapest models on the market (plus a no-name), windows were a no-name brand, floors were a mix of laminate wood and vinyl ... and the lot sizes were 2/3rds to 1/2 the size. And the houses sold because housing inventory was and remains low.

I know the sticker shock of building a home and how much it hurts to add upgrades to the total cost but IMO, it would be a good idea to inspect the builder's standard features and finishes to determine if there are other areas where they may have cut corners and determine what upgrades you can afford to do that would be a good value for you, especially given that you intend to stay put for 20 years.

Are you locked into accepting only their kitchen supplier options? How customizable is your home? Another option to what cpartist and The Cook's Kitchen suggested is to get your kitchen cabinets from another source than that offered by your builder. At least 2 of my neighbors did that and the builder accommodated their request. Can't hurt to ask.

Have you broken ground yet? If not, it would be a good idea to post your lay-out here for feedback and to catch any noticeable issues, such as spec'ing the fridge smack up against a wall without enough clearance to open the doors wide enough to pull out fridge drawers (a friend had this issue in her new home).

I used to be a dealer for a cabinet manufacturer that was also used by a major builder. I would often get calls from people looking to either get items repaired/replaced or to jazz up areas in their kitchen (because it was crazy expensive to get the bells and whistles from the builder). I was always amazed that these giant houses often had the lowest level of cabinets offered by this manufacturer. Homeowners are often not aware of the quality differences and just take what is offered in the base package. It's unfortunate that they aren't given the choice of better quality at a reasonable price.

I would steer clear of any company that deliberately misspells their own name. Nothing good can come from that... :)

Knew that ^^^^^ was coming. What robin fails to realize is again, is that you are dealing with a builder/developer and a builder/developers home. If you do not get at the very least the basic kitch and instead take a credite you will end up with pennies on the dolor for a credit and no cabinets. That unfortunately is the price for doing buisness with a builder/developer, miniscule credits, and huge markups on "upgrades". That is there business model, has been their business model and more than likely always will be their business model.

I'm a builder and extremely insulted that you're buying a 400k home with low grade cabinets! Mid grade cabinets are standard when we build a 400k home, and I'm talking about NJ. I'm appalled that they are trying to pass this inferior product, the contractor should be taking out all the cabinets and putting in new ones. Your contract probably specified which cabinets you were getting, but it doesn't mean it should be falling apart before moving in or falling apart in the first 10 years. If you want to upgrade, call a reputable Kitchen cabinet company in your area, show them the layout and get an estimate from them. Then ask them for a recommendation of someone to install it. If you plan on spending $8400 to give to this person who should have given you very good cabinets from the beginning, I would rather give it to someone else.

I like the above advice. Get an independent price on what this would cost after you take possession of the home. Then you'll know whether to proceed with the builder upgrade. My guess is new cabinets will be more than the upgrade but you may get a better kitchen out of the deal. IMO good cabinets are worth it. You will use them every single day you own this home.

I wish I could direct my potential clients to this thread when they try to tell me they can get cabinets that “look” just like the ones I’m selling for a much lower price.

And the cabs aren't the only problem. The layout is likely to be less than optimum also. I'd negotiate a reasonable credit including consideration for appliances and all the installation. I would post the layout of the whole floor here for design ideas first. So you know where you're going. You can end up with more quality and more function for your money and for the years of use going forward.

@lisa_a The other standard fixtures and finishes offered by the builder are better. I've looked at many of their homes, and the standard cabinets in our neighborhood are the only thing I've had a concern with. Our neighborhood is the builder's cheapest community, and all of their other neighborhoods actually have much nicer standard cabinets, but most of their other neighborhoods are in the $500k-700k range. We chose the builder we did because a trusted friend who works in the construction industry told us they build a better quality home than the big national builders who build most of the new homes in the area. Also, our agent (a family friend) and another friend who purchased a home from this builder both had nothing but high praise. And apart from the disappointing standard cabinets, the builder has actually been great to work with so far.

For those who asked about the layout of the kitchen, take a look at the pictures in my original post. That's not our house, but it's the same floorplan and kitchen layout, except we will have this range hood above the range instead of cabinets, open bookcase shelving on the rear sides of the island instead of leg posts, two pendant lights above the island, and of course the upgraded cabinets. An oven / microwave combo will go in the corner slot with a wire in it, and the sink and dishwasher will be on the island. There is a walk in pantry around the corner from that corner opening where the light is coming in.

I'm very glad to hear that it's only the builder's standard kitchen cabinets that have raised red flags and that, overall, the home is a good value for the price.

Regarding your lay-out, it's functional for the most part and looks like it will accommodate more than one cook, but definitely opt for drawers for your base cabinets.

Imagine making a meal in your new kitchen. Where do you think you'll prep? Next to the sink? Or next to the cook top? Do you like to bake? Where will you do these activities? These decisions will help you determine the best place to store knives, prep utensils, mixing bowls, etc.

Where will you store glasses, dishes and silverware? How about dish towels and pot holders? This is the time to do a tally of your kitchen items and draw up a storage plan to suit your needs, making adjustments to your cabinet plan accordingly.

My plan (the blue tape represents drawer widths):

The result:

How will you use the counter between fridge and ovens? It looks like it's about 36" wide, which is a decent width but it needs a purpose or it could become a dark hole catch-all. Maybe this is a good spot for your coffee maker or toaster or both. Just make sure you allow enough counter in front or next to any appliances to set down a plate or mug.

Another option would be to replace this section with a tall pantry with pull-outs - 18" wide would likely work - between the ovens and the fridge and shift the fridge towards the ovens. That would give you a place to store oft-used pantry goods (oils, spices, vinegars, PB, etc) or small appliances (if smoothies are an every day thing, keep the blender handy) in the kitchen, provide a buffer between fridge and ovens to prevent door dings and give you a wider stretch of counter to the left of the fridge for coffee maker and toaster, making this area work as a breakfast bar. Put the appliances away during parties and it could serve as a bar.

I would recommend against a combo wall oven/MW unit. If one appliance dies, you have to replace the entire unit, not just the dead appliance, which negates the initial cost savings of purchasing a combo unit.

Are you tall? The oven and MW look like they might be installed higher than standard. NKBA (National Kitchen and Bath Association) recommends that the distance from the floor to the bottom of the MW is 48". You can adjust this up or down as needed. For instance, if the MW is a combo unit with convection oven function and a drop down door and you're vertically challenged, you might want to mount the MW lower to avoid burning your arms on the oven door. If it's a side opening door and you're tall, mounting it higher will put the controls at your eye level as well as raising the oven to a more comfortable height for you.

Install vertical dividers in the cabinet over the ovens for storing cookie sheets, cutting boards, cooling racks, etc. Like this:

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Since you're upgrading your cabinets, I would definitely eliminate the open soffit above them. It's a nuisance to dust.

Our ceilings are also 9 ft. Our uppers used to be 42" tall with 12" of empty space above. Now our uppers are 46" tall (custom cabs) with 8" of molding above to meet the ceiling.

Before remodel:

After:

You can do something similar without going to a custom height upper. You'll just have taller molding above your cabinets than I do.

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HTH!

One last thing. If you're cooking with gas you will need a hood with more than 300 cfm. That's way too little.

@cpartist Thanks. Wish I could get a hood with a more powerful blower, but that's what the builder offers. It's not a fully custom house, so I can only pick from the options the builder offers. At least that shouldn't be a super difficult upgrade down the road. 95% of the time we only use 2 burners anyways, and 300 CFM should be fine for that.

mill.......I hate to say it but 'most' GC's are 'only' trying to put as much money in their pockets they can. Have you ever built a house?? mill.....I agree if they are using a track/developer builder. All they want to do is rip people off that have 'no' clue on costs. As I've said numerous times......they are only trying to line their pockets........Do you agree? GC's already make on average 28-31% profit and they are trying their best to make even more money.....especially track builders. What they make is almost like winning the lottery! Again.....I have NO problem with the 28-31% profit they make.....they earned it.....I know this for a fact.....but they will still keep lying.....it's normal for them. IMO....it's reasonable. They just need to stop lying thru their teeth!

Blower has to match ductwork otherwise you have a lot of noise and not much airflow. It actually isn't that easy to upgrade. But it is standard practice unfortunately.

Cooking with gas is great and I could never get my wife to give it up. It is the largest single contributor to poor indoor air quality including NOs and Formaldehyde. Most of the time, cooking with gas makes indoor air quality unacceptable for multiple pollutants for a little while.

Venting is crucial and inadequate in the vasy majority of houses.

" GC's already make on average 28-31% profit"

Really? 28-31% PROFIT? At the end of a project if they make more than 7 or 8% PROFIT at the most I'll eat my hat.

Kountry Wood Products vs. Diamond

I don't know Kountry Wood, but Diamond is good stuff.

- 1/2 inch particleboard cabinet box sides

Go with the strongest boxes you can get. These things are going to be around a long time, and -- as you say -- changing them is a lot of trouble and expense. They're going to be used and abused, stuffed full, leaned upon ... go with strong stuff to start with.

- Standard overlay

Standard overlay is usually called partial overlay. I'd definitely go with full overlay because it allows you better access to your cabinets -- I'd be willing to pay extra for this. With standard overlay, you get that "post in the middle".

Something you didn't mention: Are you going with at least some all-drawer stacks instead of standard cabinets? Drawers give you better access to all your stuff.

You also didn't mention whether you're using any specialized pull-outs. I don't think these are a very good bang for the buck. They cost $$$, but they only store a tiny bit.

Consider:

A similar cabinet concept: If you're using a Lazy Susan in the corner, but sure it's a Super Susan,
not just a Lazy Susan ... the difference is that the Lazy Susan (left) is
shelves supported by a central post, whereas the Super version (right) is wooden
shelves supporting the turn-tables separately.

- Flat drawer fronts

This is a matter of style. No functional difference.

- Solid wood drawer boxes with dovetail joints
- Cheap epoxy coated side mount drawer slides
- Thicker 3/4 inch shelves

- Smooth bottom mount drawer slides with full extension and soft close

Yes, pay extra for these things. When they're new, all drawers should work great -- you're paying extra so they'll continue to work well in years to come. I'd go so far as to say you should go with heavy-duty drawer slides on ALL your drawers.

And be sure your drawers go allll the way to the back of your cabinet. I know, you'd assume they do ... but I have a 30" deep peninsula with two 20" deep drawers, which means I have about 10" of empty space behind those drawers that's going unused.

The style we want is white shaker style.

I don't think anyone's bought anything else for the last decade.

The builder did say that the issues with the warped doors and loose center pieces can be fixed, but I'm skeptical about that and feel that brand new cabinets shouldn't need
fixing

I agree with you -- if they're not right on the day they're installed, they'll never be right. Is this the Kountry brand? If so, I'd avoid them.

I was always amazed that these giant houses often had the lowest level of cabinets offered by this manufacturer.

It might not be 100% ignorance. Don't we see plenty of people on this board building big-big houses, more than anyone needs? I do wonder if some of these people don't reach the finishing stages -- things like cabinets -- and realize that their finances force them to go with builder-basic items because they've already shot the budget.

I would steer clear of any company that deliberately misspells their own name. Nothing good can come from that... :)

My father's been dead almost three decades, but I can still hear him ranting about that very topic.

I wish I could direct my potential clients to this thread when they try to tell me they can get cabinets that “look” just like the ones I’m selling for a much lower price.

Yeah, but will those cheaper cabinets still "look" (and function) just like yours in a decade? We all know the answer to that question. I understand that cabinets are tremendously expensive, but this is an area where it makes sense to put in quality -- doing anything else is false economy.

Our ceilings are also 9 ft. Our uppers used to be 42" tall with 12" of empty space above. Now our uppers are 46" tall (custom cabs) with 8" of molding above to meet the ceiling.

Yes, I totally agree that cabinets-to-the-ceiling are expensive but worth the cost. You can achieve this by buying taller cabinets or by stacking two shorter cabinets.

More of the usual ignorant rant from Robin. Disregard entirely. Someone obviously kicked her dog at the same time a bird poo’d in her head.

Tract home builds usually have under a 10% markup. Volume pricing is how they not lose their shirt in such a tiny markup. But that is for the original build contract. They DO add more markup to change orders. Everyone does. It adds difficulty, and additional time. So if is going to be allowed, it needs to be worth it to everyone.

"You can achieve this by buying taller cabinets or by stacking two shorter cabinets."

The former is nearly always the least expensive option.

"You can achieve this by buying taller cabinets or by stacking two shorter cabinets."

The former is nearly always the least expensive option.

Absolutely true, but I like the stacked look better.