Thanks, Gennifer.

Previous thread... https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/4876305/need-layout-assistance-for-26-wide-kitchen

Dan1888, On one hand I understand what you're saying, but on the other hand I'm not so sure. Ha, just kidding, was making a symmetry joke! I'm thinking through your comments and seeing how they could be incorporated, but I'm not sure the prep sink shouldn't be in the island. That has the best view and according to this site, prep is where 70% of the time is spent.

Gennifer, In the previous thread, the advice was to take the cooktop out of the island and move it to the wall behind the island. That's what I have here, but the oversized width of the layout still doesn't make it work right.

I did consider moving the ovens to under-counter in the cooktop wall. That would increase the counter space greatly.

Will you be using this kitchen daily? I'm sincerely fascinated by the scope of this space.

You found it faster than me, benjesbride!

Teamjustice, I can see the differences, but I thought it might be helpful for others to know where you started. :)

Benjesbride, absolutely. Not for huge parties, but daily use for small family meals.

My kids barely clear the breakfast table with only about 12 feet to the sink. 30+ feet would do my fussy five-year-old in!

I am in the middle of a similarly large sized kitchen - but mine is a more simple shape. It's a straight up galley, so I don't have that many different areas / zones / corners. But pal is right - I have a 25' wall where the fridge is one end and the freeze flanks the other. The total length is 25'. I am finally getting a feel for the space and the space is being defined. I commented to hubby this past weekend that I will need a skateboard to get from the fridge to the freezer.

A space this large has to work and it's a weird tradeoff between having separate "zones" for job specific efficiency, and "full utilization" so that you do, in fact, use all of your space on a fairly regular basis.

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(in before pal says his house could fit in my pantry....) ;-)

Jannicone, I think just like you said, tradeoffs. I think all designs and kitchens have to deal with some sort of tradeoffs...

I've been reading and re-reading all the advice, including the previous thread, and I think these are some of the top options:

Option 1. Move the ovens to either below counter where they are, or stack them and move them to the left wall, to increase counter on the bottom wall (cooktop wall).

Option 2. Move the cooktop into the island, but reduce the prep sink size greatly to leave at least a couple feet at each end of the island, and maybe 4' between the sink and cooktop. The move the refrigerator and freezer to the bottom wall, maybe 1 at each end, and 6' of counter between.

Option 3. Move the cleanup sink and both dishwashers to the left wall, and the coffee station to the right wall by the window. (we don't drink coffee daily, but slave at our cleanup sink a couple times a day, so maybe it makes sense to move this closer to the dining areas, even if the window is still the usual location)

OR, some combo of these options...

If this was my kitchen, I’d move the ovens to where the tall pantry is, at the top of your exterior window. If you need two columns, I’d put the second one down at the bottom, where the desk starts. I’d also run the pantry all the way to the exterior wall, encompassing the desk area. (It still seems like unused wasted space, when a window with natural light in a pantry would be lovely!) Conversely, a second oven could be in the pantry.

Then I’d swap your cleanup area and coffee bar.

Here’s why I *wouldn’t* do the others:

1) below-counter ovens are even lower than ranges, making them uncomfortable to use.

2) I still think a cooktop in the island that you plan to use for seating is not awesome.

I'm not qualified to help you, but I'd just like to compliment you on your thread title. LOL.

For the record, teamjustice, I don’t think your kitchen is ridiculously big. Mine is 23’x15’5”, and while it’s large, for sure, it’s also lovely to work in.

Hope everything comes out As You Wish!

With such a massive space, i'd be doing everything possible to not make it feel overwhelming aesthetically. For instance, that pic above with the hood and decorative cabinets above and flanked columns is way too much for me. And if you end up doing any kind of cabinet other than a flat front slab... lord help me, i may have an epileptic seizure with all. the lines. This kitchen would just be so overwhelming visually.

I'm not getting into the details of design, but if it were my space, i'd aim for a single run of floor to ceiling cabinets/fridge/double ovens/etc somewhere in the kitchen, have a couple (as in two) upper cabinets somewhere for plates and glasses, and otherwise not have a single upper cabinet in this whole kitchen. You have zero need for the storage space, especially if you don't really cook.

Gennifer, Were you suggesting moving the cleanup zone to across from the elevator?

Sophie, Thanks for your opinion, I do appreciate it, but the size is the size.

H202, I was thinking slab doors. And If you go back to my prior thread, my first thought was to make one of the sections a solid mass will all tall cabinets, however, most of the feedback was that I needed more landing space and the solid masses (plus the oversized sinks and wide cooktop) ate all that counter space up.

To me, the most logical space to do the "all tall" wall would be the left wall, because that might make the kitchen 2' less wide visually, and the width is what needs the reduction if any. But then maybe I need more landing directly across...

PS, LOL about the post title. I'm a big movie nut...and I love that movie...couldn't help myself.

How about something like this?

Goals

1. Have the clean-up area and dish/glasses storage located as close to possible to the breakfast area and the dining room, so you're not walking 20 extra feet every time you need to get an extra plate or carry dishes to the sink.

2. Have one prep area on island that's at least 5 feet wide (in fact, this gets you like 7 feet), and at least one more secondary prep area of more than 3 feet near the stove. (Looking at your initial plan, it seemed a shame to have such a huge kitchen and only have 21" of landing space on either side of the stove.)

3. Have one dishwasher near clean-up area for dishes, and a 2nd dishwasher near prep area for dishes/utensils used in prepping food. Also, have trash pullouts in both locations, too.

4. Have a microwave drawer reasonably close to the fridge.

5. Find a home for wall oven and steam oven with landing space near them.

6. Keep the coffee bar near elevator area.

Trade-offs

1. Freezer gets banished far away. (If this is a huge concern, I'd consider a built-in fridge/freezer instead of an all fridge. This lets you keep some frozen food closer to the prep area, and may also let you get rid of the undercounter icemaker that I put next to the fridge.)

2. The wall oven and steam oven feel a bit lonely over on the right wall, and far away from rest of the prep area and cooking areas — however, you could make the countertop next to it function as a baking center. (I think you might also need to adjust your window location slightly, too, to make room for wall oven)

3. Instead of a rangetop, I would probably put in a 48" range with ovens, so that when you do have dishes that go from oven to stove — or vice versa — you've got an oven in your main cooking area and you aren't carrying hot pans across the kitchen.

4. I'm not thrilled about how the clean-up area feels like it could be in a main pathway through the house — however, I think I'd still rather have it be closer to the dining areas versus all the way on the other side of the kitchen.

5. I don't have the huge galley sinks in either the prep or clean-up areas. The prep area has a sink that's about 30" wide, and cleanup is about 40". You could possibly steal some space from adjoining cabinets if you want to enlarge sinks, but it felt like overkill to me to try and get gigantic sinks in there.

Matt, this is pretty interesting.

Before I saw this I was trying to redraw another option, namely:

1. Moving both ovens to the left wall to make 4' of landing on both sides of the cooktop

2. Changing the prep sink to something smaller, such as 33" Prolific to make much more counter on the island, and moving 1 dishwasher next to that prep sink (for day to day cooking, this prep sink would double as the cleanup, using the perimeter cleanup only occasionally)

3. Eliminating the seating on the island

4. Doing a straight run of upper cabinets on the entire perimeter wall right over a smaller cleanup sink, then using a long linear window in place of the backsplash there.

This makes the left wall all built in cabinets, no wall cabinets on the cooktop wall, and upper/lower on the exterior wall for variety

I'm going to read through all your notes and advice see what can be incorporated. I really like the baking area and with the oven location, and having the cleanup sink more convenient. Thanks for the detailed reply.

I like Matt's but I wouldn't split the DW.

Assuming we are talking about something like a Miele unit, you really want a trash and sink near your built in coffee.

What I'd do is put the second DW next to the cleanup sink and move the trash down next to the second DW. Shrink the coffee bar as needed to make the dimensions work,

I'd also move the ovens down the wall further so they are close to the cooktop.

HOW ABOUT THIS LAYOUT?

This takes some of the latest advice from dan1888, matt & drb477 about symmetry & cleanup, etc.:

Fridge uses island for landing zone. Glasses & prep sink nearby.

Island has room on both sizes of sink for prep.

Cooktop and both ovens have adjacent landing zones.

Cabinet pantry added for quicker access.

Slow cooker and maybe toaster hidden in corner.

Baking has it's own zone with 2 ovens and storage close by.

Cooktop wall with inspiration from:

Does that thick black line next to freezer represent something structural?

I don't think you need a third sink right next to the coffee machine, the cleanup sink a few steps away would be okay (you just don't want to be hauling the drip tray and reservoir across the kitchen to the island sink for example) and I'd keep the second trash closer to the cleanup sink so it can be shared by cleanup and coffee.

DrB,

Eliminating that sink in the coffee area would give more counter space to use as a serving bar. I like it.

The black line next to the freezer is just a sheetrock wall to divide the kitchen from the butler pantry. Could be removed or moved.

Very nice plan, teamjustice. It looks as if you've considered all work zones. I agree that the sink in the butler pantry isn't necessary. Since prep is across from the cooktop, I'd prefer a narrower aisle, but I think that's just a personal preference--I've read that others like wider work aisles.

If you omit the coffee sink, and move everything on the clean-up wall down, then the island could be moved forward without causing the corner of the island to block the path between the cooktop and fridge. That would leave space on the end for a breakfast/snack pantry, and you might be able to incorporate the MW, since many items are taken from the fridge for microwaving.

(My internet connection has been very sketchy today, so I haven't read all the replies--in case this has already been suggested.)

Other than removing the butler pantry sink and possibly sliding the fridge down (or just realizing it will be a little jog around the corner of the island, any other advice or is this a winner???

That cooktop is not what I'd suggest. A 36" Miele or Bosch Benchmark induction cooktop will give you better performance . . .and no one who has switched from gas would ever go back. Well, maybe there was one. So statistically no one. You need to go in for a demo. Also consider Miele or Bosch for your dishwashers. And a combi steam Miele XXL oven.

I disagree with a comment up thread about the obsolescence of a kitchen desk. I use mine every single day. I wouldn’t want a kitchen area without one.

I used induction for a week on vacation expecting to be blown away based on how much people rave about it here. It was fine but blown away I was not and I stuck with gas for our new kitchen.

I have to say this every time dan1888 posts his “everyone loves induction,” but we have induction in our restaurant. I hate it, and put gas in my kitchen. My brother, the chef, also hates it, and put gas in his kitchen.

Sure, try induction out. You may or may not like it better.

I like what you've come up with. I would still put a pocket door in and incorporate the former desk area into the pantry, because I'm not sure what the benefit is to leaving it the way you have it in the last iteration... I have a lot of hallways in my house, and they are fairly spacious. I often think about what that extra foot or two would have done for an adjoining room. And I still think a window in a pantry is wonderful. I would also put in actual base cabinets with a countertop in the pantry, and shelving above that. Let's be honest: You're building an amazing home. Embrace it. Be amazing.

Gennifer, I really like that door location, and the idea for the additional base cabinets, but there really isn’t s lot of width in that room. The pantry is only 5’ wide so 12” shelves on one side and 24” base cabinets in the opposite wall only leaves a 24” aisle. That might be too tight. I suppose I can drop the base cabinets to 18”.

Yes, I forgot to mention that... I would only do 15" base cabinets along the long wall.

More induction info from people with experience in their homes can be found in the Appliance Forum. Some manufacturers give you too few power level choices. Miele and Bosch give you 17 or so., which will work. One chef with a name, Heston Blumenthal, and a restaurant which has been voted to the Top 10 in the World list, The Fat Duck, uses a Gaggenau cooktop in his home kitchen and commercial units in his restaurants. Miele has Experience Centers HERE if you're close to one. You could also learn about their combi/steam convection oven while you're there. I also use and recommend their dishwasher and washing machine. Their products last. Speed Queen also makes long-lasting washers.

Looking at your full floor plan, you've got space to facet or curve the island on the living space side. This'll give your guests the opportunities to see each other and talk. Architecturally you can add a complementary ceiling feature to match and delineate the space. You'll need a good lighting plan for your work zones with leds in cans. I like 4" cans lighting the island seating areas too. Want more uniqueness-- you could build in a 6" stepdown into the kitchen on both sides of the island and back up past the butler pantry area. This gets you table height for the seating side of the island with normal chairs for comfort. And you retain counter height for work space on the kitchen side of the island. This setup has worked for us beautifully for many years. Everyone uses the island seating and that's why a desk isn't needed.

While cleaning up and loading the dishwasher last night I noticed water splashing on the floor all around my cleanup zone, and thought maybe it is a bad idea to put the cleanup sink in a main walkway.

I went back to the drawing board and came up with this idea:

Butler Pantry - Has open counter for dropping groceries, and doubles as a buffet-style serving area

Left wall - Made this entire wall tall/built-in cabinets to visually shrink the width of the room, and added a couple pantry cabinets for day to day pantry use, leaving the walk in pantry for more bulk storage. The landing zone for the refrigeration will be the island.

Island - The galley sink will be the prep and cleanup sink when it's just me cooking a small meal.

Cooktop wall - I increased the depth of this wall to 30" to shrink the aisle space and to give more landing space for the ovens in front of the hutch

Bulk pantry - I removed the desk and door and put a 36" deep counter in the rear (maybe gift wrapping or clutter)

The gray area is where there is counter space.

Thoughts anyone?

you need counter on fridge wall. Tall pantry: "daily use" and tall pantry:"snacks" is kinda the same thing. Combine that sq footage and have one pantry-largish I guess. Get some counter over there..maybe move freezer into daily use goods spot. Just juggle positions and sizes on that wall ...seems odd to have all the counter with the drawers by an elevator.....instead of up closer in. Stagger things.....create mixed configuration of tall vertical sections mixed WITH adjacent counter both in kitchen proper by fridge freezer[which I wouldn't hesitate to separate] , and down near elevator. I think you'd regret if you don't..With staggered counter sections you can take advantage in your large kitchen and do contrasting counter material..?butcher block? soapstone? different backsplash..different hardware...give a chance for some visuals to "pop" .The mass of side by side fridge/freezer....that is something I'd break up anyway.

Herbflavor, I know the advice to add countertop near the fridge is excellent, but I also really feel that keeping that wall all built-in might make the room look more proportional, and be a great spot for the cabinet pantries & coffee which both need tall cabinets. The wall is only 11'4" so after the 6' of fridge/freezer there really isn't a lot of room left to fit much else and still have anything but a few feet of counter anyway. This might just be the tradeoff I have to take if we go with this layout.

What about making the island a little wider to give more landing across from the fridge?

While cleaning up and loading the dishwasher last night I noticed water splashing on the floor all around my cleanup zone, and thought maybe it is a bad idea to put the cleanup sink in a main walkway.

Smart thinking. Also I think that overall this layout works a bit better.

I went back to the drawing board and came up with this idea:

Butler Pantry - Has open counter for dropping groceries, and doubles as a buffet-style serving area

I might consider adding in an under counter fridge in that area too.

Left wall - Made this entire wall tall/built-in cabinets to visually shrink the width of the room, and added a couple pantry cabinets for day to day pantry use, leaving the walk in pantry for more bulk storage. The landing zone for the refrigeration will be the island.

The island is way too far away to be a landing zone. I have 48" between my sink and my cooktop and it's basically 1-2 steps between the two. Yours is wider so that won't work. You want your landing as close to the fridge as possible.

I would split the fridge and freezer and put a landing zone between them.

Island - The galley sink will be the prep and cleanup sink when it's just me cooking a small meal.

I think that can work. One thing to think about is having the dishwashers split, so trying to figure out which dishwasher has which dishes in them. I know that would be a problem with DH and I since we tend not to unload the DW right away. If you do unload regularly, it might not be a problem.

Cooktop wall - I increased the depth of this wall to 30" to shrink the aisle space and to give more landing space for the ovens in front of the hutch

Good idea.

Bulk pantry - I removed the desk and door and put a 36" deep counter in the rear (maybe gift wrapping or clutter)

The gray area is where there is counter space.

Thoughts anyone?

What about making the island a little wider to give more landing across from the fridge?

Honestly, your island is already wide enough.

I like this better too. I think you've effectively shrunk the space to make this more livable, and provided some great large uninterrupted counter space for making, serving, rolling out, cooling, etc.

I echo the concerns about the 2 dishwashers and the "what's where" - I suspect you'll quickly have to have some rules / discipline around the usage of each. I'd think (off the top of my head) that the prep tools and bowls should be in the island fridge, and dishes and silverware on the right wall. (Assuming the dish storage is close - and if you can put them all in that island space that's very reachable by both DWs) the other goodness about the separate DW duty is that you may want 2 different "configurations" of DWs - like the right wall DW have the max number of place settings and the island DW one that is more flexible for large pots /pans.

My singular concern is the recessed double ovens. You are forced to stand either directly in front of or off to the "left" (as you face the oven) in order to pull something out of the oven. I fear that it will feel "odd" or suboptimal that it's almost crowded in a kitchen of this size. I can't remember why you did this but perhaps it is for easier access to the landing zone that is to the right? I don't know. I'd like to be able to access my ovens for either side / be offset from the left or the right, or, even have 2 people do something (one pull out a rack, the other baste or something?) Anyway - I think it's the one place that you might feel crowded here.

Overall - I really like this. I think the counter space will be useable and highlight the visual space, but you've increased the livability much.

This space looks like a dream. For me - I would want the island a bit deeper and closer to the range. I would love space for 2 DW and would have no trouble figuring out the logistics. Or, how about a full size DW and a DW drawer? I almost went that route, but the layout didn't work.

I have two dishwashers, and it’s not that complicated... even for my kids, who range in age from 10-17. Sometimes we do end up with both dirty, but as long as we aren’t putting dirty dishes in with clean ones, I’m good!

CPartist, Thank you for the feedback! We usually do unload our DWs right away, so I thing we're ok there. When I said make the island a little wider, I actually meant the depth.

Jannicone, Thanks! We staggered the oven just to match the inspiration pic. Actually you may be able to unload the upper oven from the right side, but thank you for pointing out the potential crowding.

Nightowl, Thank you. There are 2 dishwashers, not sure if you saw the second?

Based on the earlier feedback I made a couple more refinements:

1. Shuffled the left wall to put the pantries together. Coffee moves to the end, and also can use the island for landing.

2. Removed the uppers from the butler pantry. Not sure if this is a good idea or not but there's still plenty of storage there and that would open up the area as a grocery landing zone even more.

3. Added back a pocket door to the pantry. Not sure about this either. With a door we can add more messy shelving and close it up for company. Without the door it's just easier to get in and out but maybe I'd do a little less shelving.

4. Flipped the dish storage to the left end of the cooktop wall to make it closer to the dining areas, and more convenient for plating food. Not 100% on this one either.

5. Not sure where to stick the mixer. I think I'd use the right side of the island or the right side of the cleanup sink for baking prep, but both seem a little tight to stick a large mixer in.

Been doing a lot of soul searching and using my 13' dining room table as a mock 13' island, and I really think the cooktop belongs there so we can face out while prepping and cooking. I'm not sure about the right wall still, but here's what I came up with making the left wall a little shorter and adding landing space to the bottom wall next to the oven. Thoughts?

I totally don't agree with this. I think that you will be asking a lot of that 33" between the sink and the cooktop. I think that this is a decent space in a "normal" kitchen but you'll be cramped there or "over using it" in a KOUS.... and you'll neglect all the other spaces - because you won't prep in front of the dishwasher by the other sink, and the upper cabinets are less inviting for prep space too. IMO you are going backwards. I get that you love the island and the connected feeling it conveys - but what about all that other space???

Sadly I think that the inability to find a plan that works - after this many iterations, says you simply have a layout that isn't cohesive enough or doesn't work for the space. I'd have your architect blow that space up and start over\, compacting the kitchen some and find some creative use of space for what's left over.

Jannicone,

Would it change how you feel about this layout if the space between sink and cooktop was increased to 42" or 45"?

It does seem to me that this plan does solve several of the challenges:

1. The big bulk of the fridge/freezer is tucked away in a nice detail, accessible outside the work area for other family members and is placed in line with the work aisle so you don't have to shimmy around the island corner. Also, have that side built in visually shrinks the width a little bit.

2. Prep sink doubles as daily cleanup, making it close to dining areas.

3. Cooktop on the island; easy to dump hot water in the adjacent sink, don't need to cross wide aisle while cooking, and can face out almost all the time.

4. Bottom wall has landing for coffee & microwave, plus landing for oven. and would make I think I nicer visual from the family room than the more typical range hood.

5. Because we wont need to cross the aisle as much, the aisle width can be kept nice and wide, opening the space without compromising the use, maybe even improving the use.

I can certainly like it better with more space between cooktop and island, and good points about the landing area for the micro / coffee / oven.

Are you planning on a hood? that will impact the visuals of the space in the island (can't remember) and not sure I would tolerate a hood that was so "front and not center" (think 3D)

And I still then look at the large areas to the left (across from elevator) and right (especially the "L") and think "where's the love?"

I think that you would end up using the heck out of the middle section and rarely using the perimeter. And that may be fine for you. And you may appreciate it enough for cooling cookies or setting up a huge game day buffet (although traffic patterns will be weird) - but I just feel like there is something better out there.

Ultimately - we're little creatures of habit. And we only occupy about 2 square feet of space at any given time, so this is all theoretical. In building my new house , I really tried to build spaces that would get used enough to justify their existence (save the master tub, but that's an "aspirational" item and I know it)

I just remodeled my kitchen specifically to get rid of an island cooktop, so...

Have you thought about venting issues? Downdrafts are notoriously underequipped, especially for a larger cooktop, and a vent hood will visually close in your island, and the fact that it's off-center on your island will make your kitchen feel lopsided and tipsy.

Thank you both!

It would be an island hood. I'm ok with the hood off center.

The concerns I still have are that the bottom wall is a good enough visual, which I can determine more after I render in 3D, and I also echo the "where's the love" feeling on the perimeter.

I don't think the butler pantry area needs much of anything, and maybe we can even eliminate the uppers there, but the right wall I'm less certain about and need some more ideas.

Gennifer, what about the island cooktop did you like least?

I have to agree that you're going backwards. Wish I had the time to think on this but I'm up to my eyeballs.

I like Janni's idea to go back to your architect and maybe reconfigure your space a bit. It's overly large even for a large house and it's awkward at best.

Backwards? Inconceivable!!!

Great thread title. I'm coming in late, but here are my thoughts:

- I understand that at this point the size is what the size is, and I think you've made improvements to the layout over the course of this thread. I like the suggestions that bring your "major players" closer together so you'll have essentially a strong core work area ... and your secondary items pushed to the edges.

- The single best idea is moving the clean up sink to the left wall so it's more convenient to the two table areas. The original layout seemed designed to maximize your steps /maximize drips on the floor /maximize chances for dishes to be dropped and broken.

- Given that you have the other over-sized high-function sink for prep, any basic 36" sink would work fine for cleanup. No need to go with a ledge sink (and extra cost) for clean up.

- Do you have adequate disk storage near the dishwasher AND near the tables? Again, I'm thinking about unnecessary steps.

- Ideally storage would all be close together -- your pantry, refrigerator, freezer. Spreading these things out across the kitchen makes for more work when you bring groceries home, and it makes for more steps when you're cooking.

- At some point you mentioned buffet space. Where is that space now? I'd think you'd want it near the dining room since you'd probably want it for when you have guests.

- I'm not sure whether the main work aisle width has changed since the original layout or not, but be sure you're not making it too wide. I have a galley kitchen with an aisle of just over 5' ... and the two sides are 1-2 steps too far apart. The two portions don't "play nicely together". Be careful with this! Too much space is just as bad as too little space.

- I like the original pantry + L-shaped desk, though I don't like that you have to cross the whole kitchen to reach the pantry. Other people have said desks aren't needed anymore, and I do hate the desk in my kitchen, but I hate it because it's smack-dab in the middle of the room. This one is large and tucked away nicely in a corner ... it'd be an ideal pocket office, though I would want to extend the windows down from the cleanup sink area /bring in some natural light to the desk. And be sure you include plenty of electrical outlets.

- You say you cook only "moderately". As such, I think you're vastly over-applianced. Why does a family that cooks moderately need three sinks, three dishwashers, an oversized cooktop area, and I'm not sure how many ovens? I think you've seen things and thought, "Ooh, this would be nice, and we have space!" rather than asking, "What will we really use?" The space exists ... but I'd suggest you think twice about all these appliances.

- You say aesthetics and function are equally important ... with this size kitchen and a window only on the narrow end, I'd suggest you go with light colors to brighten up the place.

I had the latest version rendered in 3D. The render isn't exact (shows some drawers where's there's doors, etc.) but the general layout is close.

Running now, but will try and explain better when I get back. What I see is lots of wasted counter space. Where your clean up sink is. Between the ovens. I see your actual prep space as very tight since you'll be squished into the area between sink and cooktop. Why have such a large kitchen if all your workspace is on that one small counter?