Cp amen, and alleluia!! The passion for design as demonstrated by so many gifted folks is amazing. Yet, all for nought ):

CP-I did reach out to naf-naf.

Martha's use of my space was really nice. I get that the space I put up after has a lot of mistakes. It was my way of sketching out what I am thinking. I'm not sure why the expectation that I build a plan that isn't quite what I had in mind? I'm sure the plan will get where I can't wait to build it. I wish that was months ago!

I'm not sure why the expectation that I build a plan that isn't quite what I had in mind?

The problem is you keep changing your mind. Don't believe me? Reread your first thread.

And when you have an excellent plan, you don't even know it.

The title of this thread is misleading. It appears this situation will never end. The OP simply can't separate her needs from her wants, and cannot commit to anything she hasn't sketched out herself. It appears to be a personal hobby, not a design and building project with constructive input from professionals. It's not a project with a schedule and a budget. It's just a personal hobby.

CP-It is true that I have adjusted my want/needs lists. Mainly due to some stuff just not working right. For example, I still would prefer to have 2 toilet closets. The draftsperson executed it in such a way on the plan I just posted that if we were both going to the bathroom at the same time, there would be congestion. I would've really liked to also have laundry access directly from the hallway for convenience. It didn't work as well with my plan. Given that I don't intend to have solid days of laundry, it didn't make sense to keep fighting it...hopefully I can get a nice window space instead. There is an ebb and flow to the floorplans I am finding. When you get one thing, you may have to give up something else. Not always because of square footage either. I do want to be sure I get what I want. DH will not want to move.

I can't win on this forum as I get made fun of for wanting 2 T/C, or others speak up when it isn't on the plan. I realize I won't get everything I want in my plan. I know it isn't just me. I see OPs never come back so often. I'm sure Sophie wishes I would leave too.

Virgil-Just trying to sort through the non-contributive posts by the forum pros and still meet my vision. Kinda hard staying on track through all Bob has to say.

B Carey, all of the posts in this extended thread have attempted to be helpful, constructive and enable you to find the direction(s) you seek.

No one is making fun of you. Your responses appear to suggest that you, and only you, understand and have the solution to your design issues. Perhaps that is true.

You have received many, many constructive suggestions, many of which come from experienced professionals, but all of which come from well meaning contributors. The suggestions above are some of the most constructive posted on this forum in any thread.

You think the posts are "non-contributive". Nothing meets your vision. Apparently you, and only you, understand what you want and how to achieve it.

Where does that leave us?

I can't win on this forum as I get made fun of for wanting 2 T/C, or others speak up when it isn't on the plan. I realize I won't get everything I want in my plan. I know it isn't just me. I see OPs never come back so often. I'm sure Sophie wishes I would leave too.

I'm trying to say this nicely: You "can't win" because you're drawing plans based upon ideas that aren't sound. If this were a basically good plan with the oddity of two toiliets-crammed-into-closets, people would say, "This is odd, but the rest is good." That's not the case here. People have told you -- on this thread and at least one other -- that this-or-that works best because _____, and you insist that things that are widely accepted as "best practice" are not desirable at all, while multiple oddball ideas are superior.

It's your house, your money, your choice -- and you've received a ton of good advice here. Have you heard it?

It's your house, your money, your choice -- and you've received a ton of good advice here. Have you heard it?

Obviously not.

I suspect it is the delivery of the comments.

Alison you were not here when B Carey posted her last thread. Many of us spent a good deal of our time trying to help her come up with a good plan. Many of us drew out multiple plans for her as she kept changing her mind. She managed to reject every single plan and then would post another version of her plans that in almost every case didn't work. I'm beginning to believe Virgil is correct.

I stand by my comments that she has no clue what she wants.

You think the posts are "non-contributive". Nothing meets your vision. Apparently you, and only you, understand what you want and how to achieve it.

Where does that leave us?

It leaves us not wasting anymore of our time trying to help someone who only wants a plan that she comes up with.

B Carey your choices as I see it is

1. To choose one of your plans and live with it.

2. To take Martha's plan and run with it.

3. To stop wasting your time with the draftsman and find a real architect. Maybe he/she would have better luck with figuring out what you want.

I'm going to agree with everyone else about Naf_Naf s plan -- it looks great. I haven't read all your other postings, but am I understanding that you will have a hot tub outside w/access to said hot tub being only through the bedroom? Not a great plan...put a door in the bathroom designed by Naf_Naf and extend the deck all the way from bedroom to end of the bathroom. I believe you will regret not having direct access to the bathroom even if you think you won't use the hot tub much. You certainly won't use it much if you make it difficult to use.

B Carey - ok, honestly, I'm not trying to be negative with the following: First, I looked at your inspiration pic and I'm wondering what do you like about that bathroom? Do you like that the vanity and sinks are technically in a separate room from the rest of the bathroom? It's kind of hard to determine what is happening beyond that arched opening. Your plans seem to be much more open than the inspiration pic as you want to have a clear view to a tub at the end.

Or, do you like the colors and finishes? If that's the case then you can put those colors and finishes on any plan.

I sincerely hope that you get it all worked out.

To those of you that took the time to sit and hash out a different solution and then post them - wow, you all rock and I would be very thankful for your time if it was me ;-)

Mrs Pete-There is some truth to what you say. unfortunately, it seems that my plan gets consumed by the following:

Angled Fireplace, Master in Corner, Closets through bathroom. All of these are design choices. Most of the advise was based around these things. Along with that a 5 foot aisle wasn't wide enough in the mudroom (I have a similar space now that is 57 inches wide including the bench/hooks, so this would be 2 feet wider)

I sent this and a few other ideas to my draftsperson. I sent him this bathroom that I love, hoping to replicate it somehow. I get everyone's love of naf-nafs plan. It is a nice plan. I had a certain design in mind. I posted the plan and photo here hoping to get other's views on how I could get that look in a smaller, or not as deep footprint. I did it in 2 plans, even though they may not be that great. It is not that naf-nafs plan is not good, just not the design I was going for. I would bet there are a few other ways to make it flow better.

Rmsaustin-I will have a kids' bedroom under the corner and a deck that far over would block a window I will want to put in. That long of a deck would also be pretty long/expensive (for a master deck anyway)

There have been so many suggestions on both this and your previous thread to help you improve the posted designs and you have rejected every one of them out-of-hand.

Either you are so emotionally invested in your own design that you are unable to see the gain in the suggestions or you are not adequately articulating your vision. Or, possibly, not willing to recognize that your footprint requirements and your needs/wants/design vision are a bit like the old "cheap, fast, good" wag. You may need to choose which elements are most important, as it may not be possible to keep all the things you want in the space allotted AND stay true to whatever it is you feel are the design elements you cannot live without.

It is not that naf-nafs plan is not good, just not the design I was going for. I would bet there are a few other ways to make it flow better.

At this point, I think your options are to either forge ahead with what you have or to engage the services of a person of design talent (rather than a draftsperson) who might be able to help you. Because you can't, in good conscience, tell folks who are volunteering helpful advice that you don't like what they have so far and that they should try again.

The biggest issue is that there is absolutely no ability to discern between bad design and good design on board. When fools gold looks the same as real gold to someone, it’s hopeless to send them out mining.

That is a societal trend as a whole, with fewer people being exposed to the arts and learning about simple design principles like proportion and scale.

It doesn’t excuse the stubborn misplaced pride in the unwillingness to hire a mechanic to actually fix the car though.

Holly-You have some good points.

There have been so many suggestions on both this and your previous thread to help you improve the posted designs and you have rejected every one of them out-of-hand.-You are right, there have been some great suggestions. I both removed the dresser and coffee bar out of the bedroom...simplifying the tv to above the fireplace. I am hoping to add a chair or 2 in place of the dresser. Sophie said it so well that it was like Grand Central Station. Could've been nicer delivery by her, but I did simplify the bedroom significantly. It may be that the coffee bar finds its way back into the bedroom, but there were a lot of ideas thrown out for where else it could go. There have also been a lot of comments about my mudroom:the size, the 5 foot aisle, and not having it walkthrough. This has made me measure/remeasure my current mudroom space (which has a dead end) and really think about if I'd rather have the hallway walkthrough the mudroom. While another foot may be ideal, I am very happy with the size based on what I have now.

You are not adequately articulating your vision. This probably is the case. I really have tried. I have given multiple reasons to keep the master bedroom where it is. I'm not sure if it is so much articulating my vision as defending my vision. Like the angled fireplace...when it doesn't even affect a doorway. While it is nice to see how a plan could be improved by moving the bedroom or fireplace, ultimately, it doesn't meet the vision that I thought I had articulated.

Or, possibly, not willing to recognize that your footprint requirements and your needs/wants/design vision are a bit like the old "cheap, fast, good" wag. Very possibly. I am limited to 19 feet depth beyond the hallway as the roof would be terrible if I go beyond that (given that the garage is on that side too). Everyone has some sort of footprint requirement. I actually don't have a problem the plan being 250 feet more than a more condensed plan...if I am getting more for that. I think it can be done for half that.

Because you can't, in good conscience, tell folks who are volunteering helpful advice that you don't like what they have so far and that they should try again. I tried very much to not say something like that. It is hard as an OP when a bandwagon starts saying you should go with a certain plan. It is also hard when you try to articulate/redraw better what is in your head, to just be told it is a terrible plan, and go with something that does not meet your vision. Sophie could've taken a red marker and pointed out the flaws of my plan, to give me further thought. Instead, she was too excited about winning her $1 bet.

I actually wasn't going to post any plans again. This forum has a tendency to scare away OPs. Only those who had an architect designed plan are worthy of not being ridiculed (going back to the kinky comments here!). How many new homes are actually architect designed? I know many million dollar homes (where the average price point was $250,000) that were designed by a draftsperson. I would bet less than 5% of new builds are architect designed. Yet, the first 5 comments of every post seem to be jump ship and get an architect. So often these posters are just building a home where they choose from a few builder plans and pick some finishes. I wanted someone local to work on my design. I did search for architects also. Many were 5-10% of the total build cost. While it may be a forever home, DH was not on board with spending that much. Even at 2.5%, he has different priorities.

Bry-I agree with you. It is difficult not being bias when you spend 5 years deciding what you really wanted in your house, how you wanted it to look, etc. I really have tried to still keep an open mind to suggestions. I know the plan needs some adjustments, otherwise I would've have posted it here. After a few back and forths with the draftsperson, he was able to get really close to what I wanted. It is a longer process than I thought it would be.

Your master suite does sound larger and better than mine. I'm guessing with 2 islands that it is a shared closet. I know that the draftspersons plan expanded the sq footage unnecessarily.

Sophie - It’s hopeless to send them out mining. It is this attitude that clearly defines so much of the posts of yours I see. I imagine you sitting down with popcorn reading through the comments...and posting on a private designer forum how terrible people's home designs are. I guess you get by with it because there are plenty of posters saying "Sophie is usually right, just bad delivery." Imagine the impact you could have if you gave better examples of what people could do to meet their vision instead of telling them their vision is crap. You could still sit on your mighty throne with your great knowledge base...but you could also change the lives of the peasants below you.

I get that my closet/bathroom is out of proportion with my 4,500 heated sq foot house. As I stated on a previous post, the house will not be all our living space. I would make the master bedroom larger, but feel that the adjacent deck serves as a nice sitting area.

I'm going to agree with everyone else about Naf_Naf s plan -- it looks great.

I think it looks great ... given the unusual requirements for this build. I don't think it's nearly as good as other things she's drawn ... with more reasonable requirements.

haven't read all your other postings, but am I understanding that you will have a hot tub outside w/access to said hot tub being only through the bedroom?

I missed that somehow. Is this hot tub for exclusive use of the husband and wife? Kids and guests won't use it? If it's just for the spouses, then off the bedroom is fine -- but if other people will use it, I wouldn't want them to have to pass through my private space to access it.

I looked at your inspiration pic and I'm wondering what do you like about that bathroom? Do you like that the vanity and sinks are technically in a separate room from the rest of the bathroom? It's kind of hard to determine what is happening beyond that arched opening.

One of the best threads I've ever read on this board was on the kitchen board. People posted 4, 6, 8 or so kitchen pictures that appealed to them, and OTHER PEOPLE listed similarities they saw in those pictures. It was a great activity because it's easy to become "too attached" to your own inspiration pictures, but other people can see with untainted eyes and be more objective.

In the OP's inspiration picture I see an abundance of space ... a place to sit ... rich, opulent colors with a classical feel ... lots of tile ... lots of calm and blending of colors ... no superstar focal point item ... no natural light /thus many light fixtures and mirrors. I see curves instead of squared off spaces, which have a feminine feel. Although the picture contains a good bit of white, the colors have a warm feel. I do not see practical or efficient ... and I do not see a tub.

In the OP's drawings, I see an attempt at recreating the space ... but it's coming out more choppy, more maze-like.

Angled Fireplace, Master in Corner, Closets through bathroom. All of these are design choices.

Those have been discussed, but the bigger points behind these items have been use of space, circulation, and proportion.

some cognitive bias going on here

I would've said Confirmation Bias, but let's not quibble.

How many new homes are actually architect designed?

I've seen the number 2% numerous times. I agree that an architect isn't always needed and that this board does tend to jump pretty quickly to "get an architect".

One thing to point out, since you keep bringing up the delivery of some of the comments. Some people give feedback with humor (even humor you may find kinky, and others - like me, for example - may just find humorous); some people give feedback in a very straightforward, just the facts manner; some people are sharper when they give it; other try to gently bring you around. When you're hiring a professional, you can find one that matches your communication style perfectly, if that's what you want. When you're getting your advice free on the internet, part of the cost of free is that you'll get your advice delivered in all varieties of ways. You have to have a tough skin and pick through it all to find the content that's valuable to you. If you don't want to do this, stop posting here and go hire someone with design talent to give you feedback instead.

Second, once you've reached the point at which you think you're not getting useful advice for you, just stop posting on the thread. Heck, don't even look at the thread. You feel like you're getting beat up, but you keep trying to convince the posters of your points and, to your mind, defend yourself, which causes other posters to continue to try to convince you. Stop doing that. We're strangers on the internet. You don't have to convince us. You don't have to defend yourself. You get to build whatever you want and it doesn't matter if we approve. You can just disengage. Might the threat continue on without you? Sure. But your continued engagement in it is your choice.

My final suggestion is that you go away from this for a few days (stop drawing plans, stop looking at plans, stop looking here, etc.) and come back to it with fresh eyes, which can more clearly evaluate. I used to teach English, and this is the same advice I gave my students when by the nth consecutive revision, they couldn't even tell what was good anymore and were making things worse as often as they made them better.

Can we make Kristin's comment into a sticky that appears on any thread that starts to devolve into accusations of big meanie-headed-ness.

Kristin-Very great advise! I actually did come back to previous threads days later to relook at plans. I'm not expecting a poster to come up with the perfect plan for me. I do have thick skin, or I wouldn't still be posting here. More, I am frustrated that SO MANY OTHER OPs don't come back because of how they are treated. This forum is just not as dynamic as it use to be. And the people who loose are the people who are building now. It gets hard sorting through any thread with Virgils ramblings about Bob's opinions and Sophie's negative comments. Then we have a few other architects who chime in without constructive criticism (other than hire an architect).

As Mrs. Pete said, 2% of homes are designed by architects. Where is the forum for the other 98% of us? (I sound like a Democrat now.)

My thick skin made it through some of these regular commenters saying that I must have some kinky things going on because I wanted a hot tub AND a bathroom tub. I get more entertainment watching funny cat videos, but they got a lot of entertainment amongst each other over this.

You get to build whatever you want and it doesn't matter if we approve. You can just disengage. This is exactly the point Kristin. How many OPs never come back. Most people don't have the fight or the thick skin to deal with this forum. It may just be me saying this on this thread...but I am not the only one saying this on this forum. This is a harsh forum. It is not for the 98% who don't use an architect. (Just like the kitchen forum is not for those using a Kitchen Designer.)

Only those who had an architect designed plan are worthy of not being ridiculed

Actually my house wasn't architect designed and not once was I ridiculed on any of my threads.

Yet, the first 5 comments of every post seem to be jump ship and get an architect.

Because in the majority of the cases, including yours, it's apparent the person can't visualize 3D spaces in the 2D drawings. And when you don't have the skills (in this case visualization of spatial relationships and how they'll translate to 3D), the best thing to do is hire someone who does have the skills.

If I'm coughing up a lung, I'm not about to self diagnose myself. My DH is a lawyer but he's not a real estate lawyer, so when we received the contract from our builder, we hired someone who specializes in construction and real estate law to look over our contract. DH is an expert in contract law, but he was smart enough to know what he didn't know and hire the appropriate person. It should be the same with designing an expensive house.

You have a vision somehow it’s not being replicated, this despite the tremendous amount of help thus far. Your draftsman also is not totally able to create your vision. Could it be that you cannnot actually ‘see’ this vision as you review the plans. Would it help if your draftsman put these suggestions/plans hence vision in 3d?

Your husband doesn’t want to spend lots of $$ for an architect, or a person of true design talent, I get that. There are perhaps pros on this board who, (not sure what the fee would be), may be able to work intently with you. In this way you would be able to clearly depict and communicate your vision.

You do not want to spend $$$$ on a home, and only after building and living in it for many months, come to realize it has serious design flaws. Ask me how I know. All I can say, is that I am glad it’s sold and gone!

This is a harsh forum.

You know, it's really not. I'm on other mainstream forums that are much, much worse (anything parenting related runs a high risk of getting pretty vicious). This one just has people who will disagree with you, some more politely than others.

Allison-Very True! I got verbally attacked for wanting 2 toilet closets in one thread....then when a 2nd toilet won't fit in, I get accused of "Changing my mind" It wasn't until I removed the 2nd toilet, that anyone stuck up for my trying to keep it in there.

I either hold too strong to what I want OR keep changing my mind. Isn't a plan allowed to evolve while still keeping most of what an OP has on their wish list?

Maybe I am too stubborn to realize that my mudroom is too small and change my desire for the aesthetic look of the corner fireplace, and refuse to see the advantages of windows on 2 sides of the bedroom. Maybe I am terrorizing my husband with a large closet (even though he is the one who gets upset when our kids don't have enough clothing...and was even upset when my littlest daughter wore the same white fur jacket to 2 events---different brand new dresses.) I recently met a man who bragged about the huge dressing room he made for his wife out of an adjacent bedroom. He wanted to build a home and wanted the same thing for her again. She seemed fine either way.

I am controlling and stubborn. My stubborn side keeps me coming back here trying to get my plan just right. My controlling side has me more involved in the build process than most people (which may be good or bad). I am smart enough to know when to let my husband get his way. We could've built in different spots on our land. I did not want to build in the spot we are (and it is still not my number 1 spot). He could not be happier with the spot. We are both getting the things we want.

CP-I am glad for you that your plan was not ridiculed on this forum. Maybe you do not feel that neither other OPs or I have been either.

PG-The draftsperson got very close to my vision actually. I do think a few more back and forth interactions and I should be able to get there.

Bry-I do agree with you. I'm not sure how many sq ft your master is. Maybe the design is exactly what I've been looking for! The draftsperson's plan is a good 150 sq ft more than it needs to be to accomplish the same thing. I am also adding sq footage to include the laundry space near the closets. The cheaper plan would be to include it in the mudroom.

Kristin-I have seen parenting forums before! I have no desire to fill my life with that. My oldest is ADHD and even the Facebook ads for various stuff have crazy comments. It makes me angry reading through so many comments of people thinking that ADHD is just an excuse for poor parenting. If that were the case, I would assume that the problem would be primarily outside the school setting, where all the experts are! My ADHD kid scores in the top 1% on nationwide academic tests, is Extremely Creative. She also has no common sense, is impulsive, hyperactive (without being fed junk food or food coloring). She also has some other issues.

Mix that with screentime, co-sleeping, formula, bedtimes, immunizations, babysitter, homeschooling, and other parenting choices! It is a wonder moms can succeed in the opinionated world we have now. Really sad that moms don't have the support they could use when trying their best!

Here's the thing, though - even with all that craziness, you can get really great information and help on those forums. You just have to be willing pick out the useful with the crazy and ignore harsh delivery to find the valuable content that is sometimes behind it. A lot like this forum.

You are not the victim here if Professionals will not volunteer to do free work for you. It’s not Virgil’s job, or Mark’s job, or Martha’s job, or anyone else’s job to volunteer to do the work that they get paid to do, unless money has changed hands to make that happen.

Does your arborist cut down a tree for free? Your hair stylist do free highlights? Your veterinarian vaccinate your pets for free? They might give you a quick tip, or phone consult to see if you need to set a paid appointment. But they don’t work for free. Do YOU work for free?

In my retirement, I do lots of volunteer work. And I get to set the parameters on who I will work for. Just like most Pros do in their current paid and pro bono lives. Mine just happens to involve low income people becoming first time homeowners and the responsibilities that it entails. You don’t qualify for that program.

You are not a charity case, and the poor pitiful you that everyone is mean to, because they tell you the truth instead of patting you on the head and handing you a lollipop, is drama is all generated in your own mind. You can easily afford to hire a professional, and have done so. You just hired the wrong professional. Poor you that you aren’t getting the results that you want from your professional. Be an adult and do something productive about it.

You don’t seem to know when to cut your losses and do something else with someone with actual design skills rather than someone only capable of being a transcriptionist for more bad ideas.

You might as well save that wasted money and just buy the Pro version of Chief Architect yourself. But, you’ll learn that GIGO remains true. It’s the person of talent wielding the tool that is important. Not the tool itself. Otherwise any tool could build the Taj Mahal.

Alison-You hit the nail on the head! I have received great advice that changed some of my thinking. I have also chosen to stay true to what I want on some other things. So really, I do win. I just am making some posters angry that they can't change my mind. I also seem to get negative attention when they do change my mind.

Sophie-You don't seem to understand that my comments are not about the help on MY plan. Nobody else coming to this forum seeking help will call you out because doing so may mean they burn their bridges and get no more help.

CP-Because in the majority of the cases, including yours, it's apparent the person can't visualize 3D spaces in the 2D drawings. This probably is often the case. But sometimes it may also be the case that the commenters just don't like the 3D space. At 5 feet wide aisle, not including closets/lockers, my mudroom wasn't wide enough for anyone here. Most homes I see have less than 5 feet hall space with locers/bench/closet on the sides. I get that there is more congestion on mine since there is a dead end. But I'm not stuck behind the congestion trying to get through kids hanging up their stuff. There is a trade off.

My angled fireplace has probably been the most hated feature. The design/ started with years of saved Houzz photos. This is the flow I am hoping my room will have. You can't see the fireplace in the corner well, but you can tell it is there.

Here are a few more that have angled fireplaces that I like.

Some rooms are larger than others. But I think it is less of a 3D problem and more or individual preferred designs. But I may be missing something as I did not build any of the 4 homes I lived in as an adult. I do like to move around my kids' bedroom furniture and even living room furniture. It always seems to me that every master bedroom has a best bed location. I've never had a desire to move master bed walls. But, I also am going into the idea of a forever house with the permission to be able to make changes. If I want to remove an angled fireplace in 10 years because I have come up with something I would rather do (maybe even putting the bed on that wall), I won't have a problem justifying changing it. Still cheaper than the fees associated with selling/new purchase. And DH won't sell anyway!

Sophie-I never said that I was a victim. Nor do I feel like a victim. I am simply responding to some of the comments that were made after I posted 2 quickly drawn plans that I felt got me a little closer to my end goal. If I felt like a victim, I would still be curled up in a ball. I also do not expect any help from the pros on my plan, especially for free. I also would not hire someone who made rude comments on boards. You are retired, so not looking for clients on this forum anyway. I truly imagine this board is just entertaining for you....thinking about how little all these OPs know about design.

I can't imagine that the desire of the founders of gardenweb were that only those with thick skin participate.

My angled fireplace has probably been the most hated feature. The design/ started with years of saved Houzz photos. This is the flow I am hoping my room will have.

Every room you have saved is a bedroom that is probably 2x as large as what you're hoping to build.

CP-Because in the majority of the cases, including yours, it's apparent the person can't visualize 3D spaces in the 2D drawings.

This probably is often the case. But sometimes it may also be the case that the commenters just don't like the 3D space. At 5 feet wide aisle, not including closets/lockers, my mudroom wasn't wide enough for anyone here. Most homes I see have less than 5 feet hall space with locers/bench/closet on the sides. I get that there is more congestion on mine since there is a dead end. But I'm not stuck behind the congestion trying to get through kids hanging up their stuff. There is a trade off.

You are defending yourself about single comments by explaining why you keep doing or not doing small things with your layout and you are completely missing the larger picture. Your layouts that you keep coming up with are not good.

What you're doing is no different than the persons who comes onto these forums asking what do you think of my plan and when we offer advice on how to improve it in terms of overall layout, all they focus on is changing a single door swing or reversing the dishwasher from one side of the sink to the other.

People have always needed a thick skin for adventures in inter-netting. UseNet was major flame war territory. Rec.gardens was full of flamers blowtorching the earth and spammers selling every bit of snake oil that Jerry Baker could purloin.

Spike started GW 23 years ago an attempt to improve the signal to noise ratio of rec.gardens. Not as a retreat for the thin skinned. One guy. Out of his basement. Founder. Not founders. And not founded to do anything but ensure better information was accessible with less BS. Not to stifle debate or dissent.

Passionate debates raged in the Organic Gardening and Hosta Forums. It was always encouraged. As was participation of Professionals, as long as they did not SPAM the forum. If they did SPAM, they ended up in the teacups.

GW branched out to THS, with a pretty abbreviated forum list. The debates that raged in Appliances resulted in the spin off of the Laundry Forum. The busyness of the Kitchen and Bath Forum resulted Baths being split off. None of the splits or additions was in attempt to stifle debate or create a no trigger space for the thin skinned.

GW and THS has always been about healthy debate, and knowledgeable professional participation. I have been here for 22 of the 23 years, and there’s always the ruffled feather newbie who can’t make things be how they want it to be and who usually stamps their feet and takes their toys home. That’s the internet, and it ain’t for kitty cats.

At 5 feet wide aisle, not including closets/lockers, my mudroom wasn't wide enough for anyone here. Most homes I see have less than 5 feet hall space with locers/bench/closet on the sides

That doesn't seem to be what I'm seeing:

The yellow portion appears to be 4' wide, which is a comfortable width ... but the entryway into the mudroom seems to be only 3' wide ... and must also support the door swing from the closet.

Yeah, the room itself is adequate -- it's the entrance to the area that's the problem. With several kids trying to enter /leave the room, it'll be a mess. What it lacks is circulation.

Every room you have saved is a bedroom that is probably 2x as large as what you're hoping to build.

Big arrow vs. little arrow. It's about space and proportion, not design choice. For the record, I like corner fireplaces -- when they're done well.

Mrs Pete-Thank you for the example. I am shooting for 16*16 on the bedroom versus the 15*15 he has drawn. I'm also thinking 6 foot for the fireplace (4.25 from each wall corner) My bed is 6 foot wide. If I center the bed, that gives me a little over 6 foot from the corner of the bed to the closest point of the fireplace. My current living room fireplace is 6 feet wide, so I know I won't be wider than that (possibly smaller).

Is 6 feet from closest points really too close?

Honestly, I would've guessed each of those window and door panes in the photo at 2 feet wide? At most, they would be 3 feet wide for each window/door?

Edited-I missed your comment on the mudroom. I could increase the mudroom entry to 4 feet. That closet would be for DH. Kids and I are usually in the car waiting for at least 5 minutes on DH when we are going somewhere together...so it will be rare he is in the kids way. Regardless, a 4 foot entry would make the space nicer for 2 people pushing through at the same time.

Interesting thread.

"You are not the victim here if Professionals will not volunteer to do free work for you. It’s not Virgil’s job, or Mark’s job, or Martha’s job, or anyone else’s job to volunteer to do the work that they get paid to do, unless money has changed hands to make that happen.

Does your arborist cut down a tree for free? Your hair stylist do free highlights? Your veterinarian vaccinate your pets for free? They might give you a quick tip, or phone consult to see if you need to set a paid appointment. But they don’t work for free. Do YOU work for free? "

If anyone has noticed it's a rare event I post a free idea for improvement and when that rare event occurs, it's almost always for a poster who has gone out and hired a professional but is being handed back a train wreck.

And the reason for that is probably not what most might think. It's not about being compensated, although that happens by default, but it's not the reason.

It's about being sure the owner has decided that I have something of value that they can benefit them. It's about me being reasonably sure they have an open mind to another's thinking. If that's there then the odds of a successful collaborative effort go up exponentially.

And the only way I know to accomplish that is to require the owner to have vested something of theirs of value in the relationship to mirror what I have of value that I will vest in the relationship. The people that have done that and have mentally crossed that "value" bridge with me have a completely different mind set going in than those who are looking for something of value back without having provided something of value in return. It's far easier to dismiss suggestions with "Hubby likes it that way" and what not if there's nothing on the table of value of theirs.

There are numerous success stories here of course where that does not happen but for each one of those there are many where, because the poster is not required to have taken that "leap of faith" and parted with something of value to see something of value, has a closed mind set.

And of course, most folks who are building a custom or semi custom house are reasonably well off and probably got that way by charging others for their services because they have placed value in their schooling and acquired expertise and have appeared to have been well compensated for it from looking at the various projects. That's not to say they don't have a budget but still most, but not all, appear to be some sort of a "move up" scenario. So I find it ironic that while they place value in their own skills and appear to have charged well for those services (as evidenced by many posted houses), place no value in the skills of "people of design talent". Another reason why I post the rare idea only to folks who have already hired a "pro", never the DIY'ers.

And that's not to say I don't "see what I would do". I do that many evenings sitting in my easy chair if a cross word puzzle isn't handy. It's a fun freehand creative outlet with no pressure ("Ok, now how WOULD I fix this plan?", etc.). And they run the gammet. Some go nowhere, but other's are brilliant (Ok, I think anyway...LOL!). Most are somewhere in between.

Here's a typical one. It's from a while back and I only made a digital because I was communicating with another designer here.

ARG-Thanks for you response. Honestly, I do not expect you to comment on my plan. I was hopeful some of the non-pros could give me a few ideas before I took my red pen to the most recent draft. I realize that floorplans are a process. The biggest problem with the plan he sent was the depth bumping beyond the adjacent living room. In sure the King of 1 room depth houses can appreciate that was getting pretty deep. Not only was the roofline going to be crap, but the living room location has been picked for sweeping views (of trees/railroad line/creek). A 5 foot bump out isn't much, but I don't want any of that view blocked from DH recliner chair.

There are several reasons I think many don't hire architects. For me personally, I looked at every website in the closest major city and the smaller major city an hour away. I called many architects and many draftspeople. I also called a few out of state firms that had designed exteriors I liked. I did find one architect that had photos of homes she had designed that made my heart sing. Her minimum fee was $40,000. I'm sure she was worth every penny. If we were building a forever home in town, I could see trying to make that work.

I remember Annie Deighnaugh's beautiful home and her story. She went through more than one architect. She ended up with a fantastic architect and fantastic home. She is also at a different life stage than me. I am still raising kiddos. We are also not just building a house.

I realize that not every architect is $40,000. But many that I talked to were at least $10,000. Scary when you read Annie's story and realize that you may still make a $10,000 mistake with the wrong architect. Then, reading this board, and reading all the posts of Pros saying they pretty much won't do something if the client wants x,y,z. Just recently, a tile thread, an installer said he is one of the best, and if a potential client wants to use tile from Home Depot, he won't work for them. Then the thread where that poor designer convinced her clients to put granite or marble all over the fireplace. The problem was the stupid black lines the fabricator put up and that the pattern didn't match below that.....and it was apparent some designers probably just won't work with a client who insists on putting their TV above the fireplace. These are just GW examples from the last week. Not to mention the architect posts against closets through the bathroom.

I have to wonder how many architects would choose not to work with me, if I wouldn't change my mind on a corner fireplace? But I am 65 comments against the corner fireplace until anyone (Mrs. Pete) points out it may be too close to the corner of the bed. Although her example shows an 8 foot width on the bed. One of the first things I did when thinking of a corner fireplace, was draft out my bedroom set and fireplace on paper. I think I had 4 foot from closest points. That is with a 6 foot wide fireplace, which I can't imagine getting wider. I don't mind (and appreciate) someone I hire questioning if that is really what I want and explaining the negatives...but if they simply won't do it, then I've just wasted my money.

My long rambling point is that I do see value in architects. In every profession, there are a lot of poor providers. For my kids to score in the 99% on nationwide math scores (yes, all 3 are at 99%), that means 3 kids scored in the 1%. How do I know as a consumer that I am at least getting an architect in the top 20%? I know I was amazed when I went to college how many kids just skated by. I probably took it too seriously. Those kids who skated by are now out working in professions. Many are now in different fields. Many do not enjoy what they are doing. So maybe I eliminate the bottom 40% just in interviews. The next 40% maybe is a little more convincing. Maybe they even show me work that is someone else's. Then, when I get to the top 20%, maybe they have a higher fee....and I still need to convince my DH that it is worth it. While he has a few requests on the home, he doesn't place much value in the house...but rather the land. I am already building less house than we would in town as we still have other buildings (barn quonset etc) to add. And that is fine, it is a life decision I made.

This is not about an architect not fixing my plan. I never asked for that. My hope is that this forum change just enough that new posters aren't ran off. Maybe have one dedicated person who posts the same well thought out long response to each new poster about the benefit of hiring an architect? The threads get long to scroll through with all the same remarks over and over. The threads get particularly long to read through when some of the regulars jump on a bandwagon to make fun of the OP. To comment about an opinion of homeschoolers on a building forum? Why does pretty much the only online forum for building a home have to be restricted to just those who are thick skinned enough to deal with the banter?

Is 6 feet from closest points really too close?

If it were really 6', it'd be fine ... but you've ignored some math details here. I'm done.

A well thought out reply Carey. Sorry for the delayed response. I actually read it days ago but have been busy with work compounded by moving..... not fun (the moving part that is, not the work, love that!...LOL!)

Then, reading this board, and reading all the posts of Pros saying they pretty much won't do something if the client wants x,y,z.

I think in regards to incorporating in any design clients "wants" that may run counter to an architects best judgement, there's a tipping point. A big item or two, I'd probably go ahead and do but if it comes to the point that we're not in a collaborative creative endeavor but in a "box checking" endeavor I would probably conclude that that client doesn't need an architect and would do better with a draftsman.

Two examples here where I lobbied hard against an owners ideas but worked around them and actually think in the end they came out ok. One is here where the issue was a front load garage https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/4469981/reveal-of-draft-bethohio3-arg?n=4 and here where I thought the two story living room might be a little overpowering but I think came out ok given the "barn" feel of the house and many large barns have beamed high spaces https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/4750003/nc-home-created-by-arg?n=19

In every profession, there are a lot of poor providers.

That is true and architects are no exception. I personally know architects I would not trust to design a house for my dog yet they are busy. I think one of the other architects on this board said it best when he wrote "Finding an architect is like finding a spouse. You'll know when you've found the right one. It's even easier. You don't have to sit through boring dinners or watch movies together."

And I guess having a great relationship with an architect goes back to something I've written about many times on this forum. And that "something" is trust. Without trust it's a slippery slope into the "box checking" exercise I wrote about above. In lieu of a big retype I'll C&P my thought's about it I wrote on another thread:

"A good architect, when given the chance, will provide a design that can give a client everything they want, but often in ways completely unexpected. But for that to happen it takes a critical element necessary on the part of the client in every successful project and that element is trust.

Often during our initial meeting, the client will reveal their ability or inability to trust others. If I feel the element of trust is not there they will likely be referred to a permit drafter. A creative person should explore other approaches with you in the spirit of "That's great but have you thought of this.......". But for that to be carried forward successfully it takes a trusting client to not only allow the architect to expand on alternative ideas but to objectively look at other approaches in a collaborative effort with the architect. And that's an intangible that all successful projects are born out of.

And as an aside, that's why the charrette process works so well in that ideas can be explained, heard, modified, explored, remodified and evaluated all in their rough form and all in real time. I can't tell you how many times a client sitting across the table from me has said "Wow! We never thought of that. We like the kitchen idea but how 'bout if we move the entry here and the...." As I hand them the pen. In some of those design sessions the client commands the pen almost as much as I do!

Just be ready to expect any preconceived ideas to be questioned. They may in fact turn out to be perfectly valid but at least they've been evaluated against alternates as any good architect should do.

Finally, regarding preconceived ideas, I've quoted on this board before these two quotes by two creative people.....

Henry Ford observed "If I had asked people what they wanted they would have told me "A faster horse".

And Steve Jobs mused “A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them. Everyone wanted an iPhone when they first appeared, but no one could have described what they wanted before seeing one".

So put trust in your architect to carry you through the process in the spirit of Mr. Ford and Mr. Jobs and you'll have a home that is the very best."

After going through all the posts, and all the comments on those posts, pertaining to this house, and contemplating the OP's thoughts on finding an architect, I have come to the conclusion that Architectrunnerguy is the solution. Give him a call and have him design a home with you. The royalties you receive from the book you write on this experience will pay for his fee and more.

You're stuck. The question is how you're gonna get un-stuck. I believe you'll remain stuck until you find someone you like and trust who knows what they're doing. ARG might be the solution, but you're going to have to let go (a lot). Whoever you end up working with will do a lot better job for you if you trust them to do what they do best.

We did as per mark’s suggestion. We also went through very similar process as yours and I am so very thankful we followed the wisdom of folks here. What a tremendous resource this forum offers. Thank you ARG! you can read all about it here! You can also message me privately if you want further info. https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/4449548/the-journey-for-the-plan-has-finally-been-realized-long

I wonder about good architecture, and I wonder about budget. The OP has very strong opinions and very fixed ideas about what she likes, what she wants and how she wants it. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but all too often, in situations like this, there will be a need for significant compromises if strong architecture is a goal.

For example, architectural design is a simultaneous exploration of site planning, interior space planning and design, and exterior form, massing and style.

A decision in one area directly impacts and limits the possibilities in the remaining two areas.

Architects understand this, but consumers seldom do. This why architects always think and design in all three spheres simultaneously. And it's why most consumers spend inordinate amounts of time on just a floor plan.

Said differently, what this often means is a series of compromises between site planning, interior space planning and design and exterior form, massing and style in order to establish and maintain an overall pleasing harmony among all of the elements of architectural design.

Architectural design isn't simply about floor plans and the arrangement of walls and fixtures.

And then, there's the all important issue of the extent to which the OP understands, and can afford her early ideas and opinions.

Time will tell.

Good luck on your project!

Well put Virgil!

The difference PG is you were willing to let go of your preconceived ideas and flesh out something wonderful for you and your family. I get the distinct feeling that B Carey has her preconceived ideas and that is all she is willing to entertain, so no architect is going to work for her. Look at how many good ideas were thrown out here and each and every one she found fault with. Then she'd post another version of her own design. For some reason she has this need to make it all her own design and she is not willing to trust anyone except herself.

Thank you CP. Honestly, I can’t believe how much advice, effort and passion have been offered on this thread. Simply outstanding! (Maybe some folk need to learn the hard way, build a home only to realize it has many unwanted flaws.) We have been told that our design is very different than the typical “Ottawa” house. Yet I know and trust it will work and we will be very happy in it.

Come back to the forum after 17 days of sick kids to my post garnering more attention.

Arg-Thank you for your comments. They were not different from what I expected except that you would go ahead and send those "difficult" clients to the drafter. I am not sure you would enjoy working with me. That is fine, not everyone is a good match. I would expect to be presented new ideas and have my ideas challenged (which you do). But I would also be quick to turn down things that I already decided I didn't want. Since we have had our land for longer than most, I have had a long time to think about so many of the things I wanted/didn't want and how I would like furniture to sit in the room...etc. My husband is quicker to not beat around the bush. But for a female, I am very quick to make decisions. If it isn't how I want it, I know.

Virgil-Also well said. Oddly enough, my room locations were very much dictated 1st by the lot. I had a completely different bubble diagram for our original house site. You are right that I have very set ideas about how I want things. I don't want a door in the middle of the wall straight across from my bed for example. Not because I spend all my time laying in bed looking directly ahead of me, but because it is not the more pleasing location. I also am not just looking at the floorplan/2-D spaces. My husband is a big picture guy and think about the details later. I like to think about the details in order to make sure the big picture works. I guarantee you I won't get done with my house and then try to figure out where furniture goes. In fact, the fun of decorating may not happen as so much of that has already been brainstormed.

PG-Thanks for your comments. Yes, I was given some great advise and a lot of attempts to fix my plan. Please understand that so many of the fixes were things that I said from the get go wouldn't work. I get the desire to have the master bedroom in the corner. For my lot, it is not the ideal location. Plus, I wouldn't put windows on 2 sides, simply because I don't want windows behind the bed or on the wall straight in front of the bed. And having the bed face the door to the outside is odd (and against fung-shui). While I would never have a corner fireplace in the living room, I really want one in the bedroom. I gave careful thought to furniture layout, etc. But when you look at the fixes, nearly every one changes the fireplace location. I am very glad that you were able to find someone to work with that could help create you vision.

CP-First, thank you again for the work you did trying to come up with a solution to my plan. I think we all have preconceived ideas (unless we just got land a month ago and haven't had much time to figure out what we want!). I have saved tons of ideas..so many of them repeat the same thing over and over. When I have saved every bedroom corner fireplace, I probably am not going to switch when the internet forum attacks me for it. If my bathroom is going to cost me $20,000+ not matter how it is arranged, should I really do a freestanding claw foot tub when I don't like the look? Yes, I may be quick to say I don't like something. But it is not because I want to turn ideas down. Rather that I have seen the idea repeatedly and don't prefer it.

I think it is really interesting that comments have gone the way of "so and so made a good plan, you should build that". It is not so much that it is a bad plan, just that it is not the right plan for me. Can I take bits and pieces or get new ideas from plans shown..YES. But to be told that I am in the wrong for not going along with a plan is very strange. My husband is not every going to move...so I better darn well like the house. Otherwise, there will be a huge remodel in 20 years! (There probably will be a remodel in 15-20 years as I will be sick of whatever cabinets/counters/finishes I choose whether they are still in style or not!)

I posted my plans knowing that they weren't quite right. I really have appreciated all the helpful comments. But man, to weed through some of the other non-sense was very exhausting! If I felt my plan was it, I'm not sure I would've posted. Honestly, yesterday, I did come up with the right plan for me. It can still use some tweaking. But I sent it to my draftsman so he can draw it up. I am literally pinching myself I am so excited. Took me over a year to create the main floor of my dreams. Not the same floorplan regurgitated in 90% of new builds. Every space in it is like a dream. Only one odd thing that I don't love....can you imagine...only one thing that bothers me? I call that a win! Would you believe that the closet entrances are between the bedroom and the bathroom? Not in the bedroom and not in the bathroom. I'm like a gardenweb wish granting genie on that one. Everything is quickly accessible. Even my little laundry space is fantastic...even has a window...and vents directly outside! And my closet, DH closet, the toilet closet, tub, and shower ALL have windows. It's like a dream. I would post it, but it is on my graph paper. I'll wait until the draftsperson draws it up...so I don't get comments that the spaces don't work because my walls aren't drawn in properly. I may start a new thread when I get it back. I know the exterior walls will be neat...just have to get the dormers/roof/materials right. I also need to get the basement floorplan done.