I don't know if this is helpful, but I remember from college psych courses that the part of psychology where you actually help people through talking to them was called "helping behaviors". I recall that several of these include silence (so you let the other person say what they want and exhaust themselves talking--then you give them silence--sometimes for minutes--, which eventually they will fill with some sort of insightful admission--and thus propel them on their way to self-awareness), and another one I remember is reflection (meaning you repeat back to the upset person what they just said like this: "So, you're upset because you think I already ruined my share of the silver and so you deserve more of the silver pieces than I do," thus validating to the upset person that she is being heard and understood.

I know this takes incredible patience and practice. And there are more helping behaviors and so I think you should google a book using the search terms "helping behaviors psychology" and you will find quite a lot. Given the fact that you have to deal with her, perhaps there will be some helpful tips in a book like this.

I have a brother who is the same way. Our mother aided and abetted his thinking all his life. I have chosen to have nothing to do with him, anyone who knows us also knows everything he says is an untruth. I learned to deal with it by NOT dealing with it. Only way I could survive. There is much more to this story, as I'm sure there is with yours also. Is he mentally ill? I don't know and can't help him, can only help myself.

My first hit for a book search "dealing with difficult people" is this book. No way to know if it would be helpful, but I'd suggest an online search of your public library for this or similar books. That way you could check them out without investing $$ in something that might not be right for you. There are lots of good online articles that came up when I did that google search, too. Maybe something helpful in some of them.
How to Deal with Difficult People

Whether your sister has a diagnosis or not, it seems something is awry. I'd also search for online or community support groups for families of mentally ill people. That could be very helpful. I second the recommendation to look into NAMI's resources.

I'm sure that you asking yourself why should you be the one to go to a counselor. The simple answer is because you can see the craziness that is going on.

I too think you need someone to talk to who can give you clear techniques for dealing with someone like this.

Later on it could be a family counseling type of situation in order to get her in the door for some treatment as well. But that's just a possibility. Maybe if you tell her you want to be able to let go of some resentments and get back to being just her sister.

I love the technique stated above of having moments of Silence to allow a person to work through to their own solution. It doesn't work with my bipolar sister but it does with other people for me.

One other thing you can do to distance yourself from her type of confrontational Behaviour is to say out loud to her when she's insulting or accusing, a simple phrase;

Thank you for sharing.

You needn't say anything more than that when she is on the Rampage. Also keep reminding yourself that it has nothing to do with you. It really doesn't have anything to do with you and you can't control her so...

Don't let it in.

Tell her thank you for sharing but don't go with her down that rabbit hole. At least it works for me when I use that phrase. It's from Marisa Peer a well-known hypnotist from England.

You cannot change other people. Only how you react to them. Give her the silver with no fuss and don't involve yourself any further with her possessions or any business affairs. Assisted living is a good thing. Let it take the burden off of you.

Thank you all for your suggestions, in particular those who offered books/techniques. I appreciate them and will investigate. :)

pennydesign. you said, "My particular problem is with someone with narcissistic personality disorder. She is always right, and she would never admit to seeing things in a way that doesn't portray her as being perfect. Lots of twisting of words... Arguments are futile and exhausting."

THIS. This is part of her behavior. An you're right, logic and facts rarely matter. Yet, you look at this person and they LOOK normal, and you want to think, they have to get this, they can't be so *fill in the blank*. And yet, they don't get it. It's like beating your head against a brick wall.

lovemrmewey, I feel for you. I'm sure you are probably as sorry for the relationship you could never have with your brother as I am with my sister. *hugs*

Setting boundaries is imperative. First with your mother, who you say is MAKNG you deal with your sister and then with your sister. Lots of books at the library so I would start there. My first advice would be to use caller ID so you can decide when and if you are going to speak to your sister. If seeing her in person, it has to be in a place where you always have the option to leave. You can only change you.

rather, I never said my mom "makes" me deal with my sister. I simply said I have to deal with my sister, because we both help in taking care of our mother, so avoiding her entirely is unavoidable. And I do indeed use caller ID. I rarely answer the phone when it's her. ;)

My suggestion is that you go for counseling. When I was helping care for my MIL while she was in assisted living and then in the nursing home, I was at my wits end for how to deal with her in a way that was no longer making me crazy or driving her crazy. So I went for counseling. It was soooo helpful. She helped me understand the situation from my point of view and her point of view and she helped refill my "toolbox" of things to try, say and do to help improve the situation. She helped me recognize and accept the things I couldn't change as well as focus on the things I could change. It really helped.

And as I changed my approach to my MIL, it changed her approach to me.

Sending you thoughts of strength, comfort and courage to help you deal with your situation.

Beth,

It's strange that she can keep it together with your brother, I wonder whether having a conversation with him might be worthwhile.

As a practical matter, after your dear mother passes, you could minimize contact with your sister, perhaps meeting in a public place where if she starts up with her delusions you could shorten the visit. If she is truly mentally ill and doesn't realize they are delusions, I would not do more than that (although again, it is strange that her behavior with your brother seems OK).

I'm praying you find some peace.

Perhaps she is better behaved with the brother as she sees men as authority figures and women as weaker.

Beth I hope you find a way to deal with your sister and I do think you will have to be the one to change the way you react to her. I'm puzzled by the fact that she doesn't behave badly with your brother. Could it be that your brother has set boundaries and does not play into her drama?

Lucille, I agree. THAT is why I think many times I try and say things to her that one might not to a truly diagnosed mentally ill person. Because she clearly can be reasonable at times.....

I have had a couple conversations with him, but he doesn't see a lot of it. One, because he literally doesn't see that side of her, and two, because he has a soft spot for her, to a fault. They have always been close. They are 3 years apart, but 8 and 11 years older than me. He is oldest, with a VERY non-confrontational nature. I have said (to myself and my mother) more than once, I don't know what's more concerning, my sisters behavior, or his inability to see/deal with it. But again, I think she hides a lot of this from him. Not too long ago, she told me something he had said in confidence to her. It involved me, so I questioned him about it. He was utterly shocked and questioned why she would do such a thing. (!) Not surprisingly, she had twisted what he said, and it wasn't at all how it sounded, which was bad. The fact that he didn't understand why she did that, tells me there's much he doesn't know.

I appreciate those who suggest counseling, but I'm not trying to find the money for that. And, my mother will be 92 in April. In her physical condition, I would be shocked if she is here this time next year. I simply need a few quick coping skills to get me through. Once mom has gone home, I will have nothing to do with my sister unless she is in trouble.

Another option to counseling is talking to an open minded friend/person that is unbiased and can help you see things with a different perspective. Talking things through with someone sensible can be beneficial.

Beth, have you heard of the term "gray rock? Perhaps this article may be of interest to you

https://lovefraud.com/the-gray-rock-method-of-dealing-with-psychopaths/

Wishing you peace.

My mother was a narcissist and an abuser. One really effective method that she used to take control was to keep things stirred up. She was a troublemaker. She played every member of the family against every other member. The whole world outside of our immediate family thought she was wonderful. Even my father did not know what she did to us. I only got peace and respite when I just stopped having anything to do with her. Having a conversation with her meant having to defend myself, meant being accused of something, meant being told how inadequate I was, mint being thrown off balance. She was a troublemaker and kept conflict stirred up. Stay with her, talk with her, and you will wind up with PTSD if you don't already have it. Even now, reading your story and writing this makes my heart pound. My free advice, and worth every penny, is to tell your mother about this, tell your brother about it, do not engage in lengthy discussions, do not defend yourself, just tell them how it is, and do not talk to your sister at all. Get a receipt when you hand over the silver, and do not engage. I am so sorry, and I wish you the very best.

I was typing when you posted that your mother is 92. At this point, I wouldn't talk to her about conflict at all. Do whatever you have to do to keep her comfortable, and that includes protecting her from your sister. You say that the two of you are involved in your mother's care. See if you can't get outside help, make sure all your mother's documents are in order, and enlist your brother's help if you can but don't be surprised if you cannot. Someone upthread mention dealing with a psychopath. You can't deal with a psychopath. They will win every time. So my free advice once again is... don't do it. I wish you the very best.

That Grey Rock link has great suggestions.

Beth09, I don't mean to belabor the point about a counsellor, but perhaps your workplace offers free counsel. Also if you are a church member, your pastor might be a source of comfort for you. It sounds like you need someone to talk to to relieve the stress you are feeling. I am so sorry that you are experiencing this situation.

I have heard good things about this book: Stop Walking on Eggshells.

I have two takeaways from my dealings with difficult people.

One was to accept that the relationship is never going to be normal. Once I realized that my now deceased MIL was not even remotely interested in anything I had to say, I stopped trying to make myself heard and accepted that I was just the backboard for her to talk to. We didn't have real conversations.

The other was that when a person with OCD becomes like a record stuck in a groove, you need to come up with a response - I call it a mantra - to respond and say only that in response to what she is saying. Instead of trying to reason with her or prove she is wrong, you respond over and over with the mantra, such as, "I am not going to discuss the silver anymore." You remain calm and still, say it quietly, breath evenly, respond to her only with the mantra, and wait for her to give up or move on to another subject. Don't be goaded into a confrontation. Don't try to change or deflect the conversation. Just let it hang there.

Just some additional comments: It is not surprising that she acts perfectly normal some of the time. But that doesn't mean she doesn't have a mental disorder. Her history indicates otherwise.

As for her relationship with your brother, sure, the fact that they have had a close relationship helps. And the fact that he is a man. But the fact that he is non-confrontational also helps that relationship. The more you can be non-confrontational with her, the better for you.

You can't diagnose someone else. And someone who doesn't want to investigate what might not be working for them.

That being said, do some research on Borderline Personality Disorder. While you can't know for sure if this applies, you can learn some good coping behaviors for similar behavior patterns to what you describe.

Yikes...I thought I was on design conversations....

Hi, I'm 1929Spanish. Apparently dropping in for the morning....

Former first lady, Rosalynn Carter wrote a book "Helping Someone with Mental Illness" that might be helpful. I found this website a resource for setting healthy boundaries, with a friend, with borderline personality disorder. BPD family

I can't really respond now, inhaling food before getting back to my mom. Got out of church and had a text she was not doing well. Actually, she was in the ER Tuesday and they never should have sent her home. Anyway, admitted an hour ago. Everything checks clear, but she's not good. Flu like symptoms. Bad cough, and weak as a kitten.

I read most of the new posts before I left for church, but no time to respond thoughtfully then, or now. But ratherbesewing, thank you, thank you, thank you for that article!! I have thought about so much during the 3 hours in the ER. So much has come out of this thread, about me, and to help me. Will elaborate when I can. But thank you ALL!

p.s. God has a way of working things out. My sisters car broke down Friday, is still being fixed. So it was just me and mom all day yesterday and today. :) My sister should be up there tonight, when I'm ready to come home.

p.s.s. When I was on the phone filling my sister in, all of a sudden I was thinking, Gray rock, Gray Rock, Gray Rock. lol ;)

Without a diagnosis, there is no book that can help. There are too many types of mental illnesses out there and each are treated differently. And until she admits there is something wrong with her, there is nothing you can do.

I have a sister whom I believe has mental illness. She pretty much has pushed us all away. I haven't talked to her in close to five years. And my life is perfectly fine without her in it. And I'm good with that.

Keeping you and your family in my thoughts tonight. Best wishes.

I think Rosalynn Carter's highest education attainment is a high school diploma. She can't hardly be a knowledgeable source on this subject.

I have no book idea but maybe as suggested, you might find some benefit for yourself with some counseling on how to deal with her.

I am no way a doctor, but I had a friend much like this and was bipolar...although refused to take medicine.

Good luck and chin up!

Elmer, I think that if you can see some similarities in the condition, books can provide a framework for some decent coping skills.

“I think Rosalynn Carter's highest education attainment is a high school diploma. She can't hardly be a knowledgeable source on this subject.”

Wow, what an arrogant perspective. Especially when you consider the people this woman’s met and experiences that she’s had in her life. You have no way to know or judge what her qualifications are so why be so dismissive to someones suggestion when they found it to be helpful?

Formal education is not the only way one becomes educated. There are many many people in this world who are intelligent, successful and highly regarded that don’t have a college education. They also often have more street smarts and common sense.

There are lots of books available written by people with no education, training nor work background in the subjects they cover, exactly like Carter in this case. If you don't understand the difference between someone who's qualified in an area and someone who isn't, then that makes you very special.

Elmer, there are many many people who have only graduated high school who go on to learn through other people, life experiences, necessity and just love learning. I found your insinuation to be offensive to many. You may want to learn more about Rosalynn Carter which is her full name not Carter. Don't bother answering me as I won't be reading it. Too bad, I used to like you. article

I plan on ignoring Elmer. He's just baiting. If he checks, the link to the website, I provide, there's suggested publications, to read. No matter what the diagnosis, setting boundaries, is important.

Absolutely, not setting boundaries is enabling them.

(((beth09)))

I deal with a close family member who seems to have narcissistic personality disorder. There will never be a diagnosis, but because her behavior fits the bill, I've used the articles I've read online as the basis for dealing with her. It helps. As does limiting contact.

Right now I'm in an uncomfortable situation with another family member- somewhat like yours in that I have to deal with this person, but this person is a bit emotionally unstable and unpredictable.

If you want books or articles, I would suggest looking for ones with topics about enhancing your own boundaries in a healthy way. You don't need to get into spats with people like this, or allow them into your head, the only way you will survive them is by becoming immune to them. With the second person I've mentioned, I just don't get into it with them. Give them as little information as necessary and disarm any situations that come up with calmness and straight words that are carefully chosen in an attempt to not set them off. Yes, it's walking on eggshells some of the time, but this person is not going to be capable of changing, so it's all about people management and feeling like you've been able to retake some control for your own sanity...

Still reading your posts, still no real time to respond as I want to. Sister didn't end up getting to the hospital til early last night. So I have spent much time with my mom, who is definitely doing better now. :) But now I have to play catch up. I just wanted you all to know I'm not abandoning the thread. I hate it when people post for help and never come back. You're left wondering. It may be a few days, but I will be back.

Elmer, I'm wondering if you yourself attended a university/college? If so, that might help illustrate my own personal view on them. and that is that they are highly overrated. ;) And I would appreciate it, if you choose to continue posting in this thread, to refrain from using the word "special" in the context that you did. I think we all know what you really meant.

I can recommend Contagious Emotions, by Ronald Podell, MD. As you've learned, dealing with a mentally ill person can be crazymaking. I don't know a better word for it.

beth, yes, I'm a university graduate. For many, those four years have an effect on their lives that's impossible to overstate or overrate. There are a lot of crappy colleges that don't offer experiences and opportunities that lead to such outcomes. Also, there are a lot of people who go to college who shouldn't and would really be better served in other occupational or training pursuits if there were more available (as I think there should be).

How does that illustrate what seems to be your dim view of college?

Beth09, I have been following your thread, haven't felt like I had anything to contribute. Just wanted to say I'm glad your mother seems to be improving. Take care of yourself too -- diet, health, exercise, etc -- stress can get you down so fast. Good luck with your sister. Gray Rock :-)

Have no book to recommend but I hope your mom is better soon.

Good morning all. I felt led to do a brief update, as some of you have expressed care and concern over my mom. So I am really here just to let you know what's going on.

She got out of the hospital last Friday late after staying 6 days, and is not recouping. Weak as a lamb and pushing to eat, no appetite. However the cough is gone, on breathing treatments. I have a feeling her almost 92 year old body is finally giving up. Time will tell. So naturally I have not felt like posting about my sister. I will say she questioned if something was wrong with me Sunday, and when I said, No, why? She said I seemed distant. So she's definitely picked up on the fact that I'm not offering up/talking as much. I also had her over to get her silver yesterday, so that is behind me.

I just want to say how much I appreciate all the thoughts and prayers for my mom and I. They are greatly appreciated. :)

I am very sorry to hear of your mother's declining health.

I'm sorry about the decline of your mother. Sounds like you've made a good long term shift regarding your sister. We on this forum really do care, thanks for letting us know how you and your mother are doing. Post here anytime you want to share or just vent as you go through a difficult time in your life.

My friend felt a great "aloneness" knowing she couldn't share words or care during her mother's decline. Now with her mother gone, she just feels sad she cannot have a real friendship with her closest living relative.

Accepting "what is" is sometimes just hard.

Having recently gone through my mother's decline and passing recently, I can relate. For a few reasons, one of my sisters was REALLY hard to be with at that time so I actually had to leave before Mom passed. (Mom lasted almost a month without food and with very little water!) Sister has improved greatly but is now dealing with her own health problem, unfortunately. I wish you peace and will pray for you and your family.

So sorry to hear about your mom. Sending you thoughts of strength, courage and comfort as you go through this difficult time.

Beth, I have gone through a similar situation and as cmarlin notes, it's unfortunate that one cannot go on this painful journey with the one person who shares your history. Tragedy often brings people closer or distances them further.

Hoping that you find peace and comfort elsewhere.

My friend felt a great "aloneness" knowing she couldn't share words or care during her mother's decline. Now with her mother gone, she just feels sad she cannot have a real friendship with her closest living relative.

You couldn't have written anything I would have related to more. I was just lamenting over this very thing yesterday. There are things I want to talk about, and I wish it could be my sister. But I know, because I know her so well, it can't be her. It was easier when my dad was dying, because she lived out west then. Brother lives away. So I was truly alone and had to deal with everything. (parents divorced when I was young) But now it's like there is someone here, yet, not really.... *sigh*

It's not quite the same of course, but I do have a friend I've known since 7th grade. I just share with her.

Anyway, thank you all for your comforting comments. I really do appreciate them.

I read about half way through this thread, but didn't have the time to continue on through to it's conclusion. But I gathered that have received some good advise and initially wished for book suggestions to help you with your family issue. Forgive if the below suggestions have already been made upthread...

Having a diagnosed severely mentally ill mother (now passed away) and other family members that were nearly as destructive, I needed to learn how to set down boundaries, and frankly, how to protect myself. Which is all good everything, but like you, with those fine lines of family vs boundary, what to do?

Someone suggested some books for me and I found some useful techniques for coping and staying sane while dealing with the face of insanity.

Some books that aided me with their CrazyMaking were:

"Think Like a Shrink" by Emanual H. Rosen, MD

"Psychopath Free" by Peace (this book revolves mostly around romantic relationships, but I found that if I superimposed non-romantic relationship experiences into the passages, it fit the same.) At the time I read this book, it was a Kindle download edition and the author used the pen name of "peace" to remain anonymous. Looking on Amazon for you, I see that now the author has a print edition and appears to using a real name--Jackson MacKenzie, and he has an updated and expanded version currently.

"The Sociopath Next Door" by Martha Stout

Then, I see that there is a follow up Stout book called "Conquering the Sociopath Next Door: How to Defend Against the Manipulative, Conscienseless and Destructive Person in Your Life." by Martha Stout. I've not read this book and may not as I've moved passed these destructive persons and their amazing nonsense, but it's there if need be and it might be of use to you.

I hope things ease up for you. Take care.

I have an unorthodox suggestion--focus on things that you can change--namely yourself. This book was a life-changing revelation:

http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/store/the-education-of-will-ppb.html

I wanted to give an update, and thank everyone again for their thoughts and prayers for my mom. She seems to have done a full recovery. I call her the energizer bunny, she just keeps going, and going.... If you could all see how utterly frail she is, you could really appreciate that! Anyway, she seems none the worse for wear, and I expect her to see her 92nd birthday in April. ;)

I would have posted sooner, but a week ago this last Monday, my best friend (the one I mentioned in this thread) called to say her oldest son was at the ER. He had passed away suddenly at the young age of 39. So needless to say, my life was put on hold til a couple days ago.

I have not seen my sister much, which has been good. Some of the things I got out of this thread, and in particular the Gray Rock link, will follow. I highly recommend reading the comments at the end of that article, I got as much out of them (and am still reading) as I did the actual article. This is what I have come away with so far.

1. One reason I have responded to my sister in the past when I shouldn't have, has been pride. She has always lorded over me, in my mothers own words. And I suppose a certain part of me just doesn't want to let her have the last word. I'm not some dumb little sister, though she can often treat me as such. And has for most of my life. So, there's one thing I have recognized, admitted, and need to work on.

2. There is a part of her that appears totally normal. So much so, that I find it really hard not to hold her to the same rules that every one else has to follow. She can definitely discern right and wrong at times, and she can realize there are consequences to actions. Which is why I didn't just give her the silver. I wanted her to understand she had given them away. That she can't go through life throwing temper tantrums one minute and then be sorry and expect to be bailed out of whatever mess she made during previous said temper tantrum. Whether it was wrong or right what I did doesn't matter now, it's over. But she did contact me after the fact and ask if she could have one of two certain spoons. These were not with the set, and I had repeatedly offered her one at the time but she had declined. She acknowledged that I was not bound to give them to her, and if I chose not to she would understand. So see, she does "get" stuff. And for the record, I did give her one, and the one I thought she'd like most. She seemed really happy, as it was a really neat spoon.

3. Part of my problem is, I wear my heart on my sleeve. That only sets me up for more trouble and confrontations. I am not used to having to guard my words. This is something that is going to take some work, I am an open person by nature. So it's a real mental exercise to calculate my words. I'm working on it. But it doesn't help that she picks up on my "quietness".......

I don't know that all this will work quite like it did for others, but I definitely got some help out of it. See, she wants a relationship with me to some degree, so I don't see her just going away after she gets" bored". Maybe more so in anger or frustration because she will sense I don't really want to be her "friend". Which I hate. I don't want to hurt her feelings, but it almost seems inevitable. I love her, and desperately wish we could have had a real relationship. But, that was not to be.

Thank you again for all your thoughts and suggestions and links and prayers and well wishes. It never ceases to amaze me how caring some people can be to a complete stranger. :)