When I got my first job (age 17) I was too nervous to eat breakfast so around 10 AM I would pop down to the drugstore on the ground floor of our building. There I got the exact type of shattery roll you are describing along with a cup of hot chocolate. No breakfast has ever tasted as good since. Those rolls were light and feathery and spread crumbs all over the place when broken. This was in central New York back in the fifties so they've been around for a while. It is what I think of when I hear Kaiser roll but never really get.

Lindac, this might be what you're looking for. The technique is a little different. Might be worth a try.

https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/crusty-european-style-hard-rolls-recipe

Thanks!! I'll try that!

As a young teen my family lived for a year in Easton Pa. I passed a large bakery on my way to and from a friends. This bakery allowed kids to walk in buy a very hot right from the oven HARD roll for a nickle. I would eat it while walking home as mom would have had a fit with how much mess the crumbs would make. light airy and steamy inside and the crust which was a large part of the roll....would make a huge delicious mess. Best roll I've ever had and haven't had another in 50 year's.

I agree it would be perfect with soup or stew.

lindac - Please post after you've tried this recipe. My DH longs for the hard rolls he grew up eating in the NYC area. Upstate NY has no such thing. I've searched online and have not found any recipe that someone who really knows what they should be like will vouch for.

Not tomorrow....but maybe Monday or Tuesday.....
I am as anxious as your DH...maybe more so!

The city Kaiser is mostly used for breakfast egg sammies. The hot steaming egg slightly softens the interior and the exterior stays crisp and flaky. A good one appears hard but should be able to easily smoosh it down and barely spring back. Those also make good deli lunch sandwiches. Never used for wet/juicy things like burgers or pulled pork unless the recipe is adjusted. The bottom falls apart.

Similarly I recently went on a recipe hunt for a NewOrleans style po-boy loaf. Dead end so far. It also has a slight flakiness on the crust but a different interior than a kaiser.

I'm trying two potato brioche recipes tomorrow for burger sliders.

With the exception of the salt, I followed the recipe to the letter. These are good rolls but NOT Kaiser rolls. Linda, perhaps you will have better luck.

This site says "You make the crust hard by either brushing the rolls with an egg wash just before baking, or putting a pan of boiling water in the oven, or by spritzing them with water two or three times while baking,"

Kaiser Rolls

Ricky, something is missing. Ann_t might know. I'm not a baker but you don't have the rise/loft and maybe missing the water/egg (mixed together) wash a couple times.

The cuts may have deflated the dough.?

Not kaiser, but I had ok success last weekend and should have brushed again towards the end of cooking. Want to use the 'everything' bagel mix next batch...these are potato brioche, great burger buns. I made too many but should freeze well. Also too big for sliders but the second batch I made smaller...

I made ann_t’s Kaiser rolls this weekend and I can attest - they were fabulous! Ann said they were easy to make, and she was right. I find Ann’s bread recipes to have the perfect amount of salt, as well. I should also mention, our local deli’s Kaisers have soft crusts. And they are terribly chewy. Not the good chew.

The dough kneading in my mixer. I followed Ann’s recipe to a “T”.

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Tucked under to create surface tension prior to first proof:

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First proof (I was busy, it proofed just a tad much, but was fine):

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I divided the dough, but rather than 12 rolls, I made 10 as we wanted them for burgers also, and we tend to make rather large ones! After which, I put all but 4 in the freezer…

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I shaped the logs, let them rest for 10 minutes, and formed the knots (didn’t take photos because I was packing up the house for our reno, and forgot!) An hour later they rose beautifully and were ready for the oven.

I spritzed with water only (no egg wash) and used both poppy and sesame seeds.

They came out amazing – nice hard crackly crust but light as a feather! I did rub them with a bit of butter just out of the oven - it did not soften the crust really. 3 hours later I sliced 2 in half for our gorgonzola burgers. The crust was utterly divine – it was very crackly, not thick at all though. The inside dough was light, soft, not chewy, but held up to the juices of the burger – and tasted wonderful. I actually kept pulling the bread off just to eat it alone. These would make a lovely roll on their own.

I’ll just put the frozen dough in the fridge to thaw, shape it (that’s not difficult), and let it rise to bake each time we make burgers or similar sandwiches. I’m horridly spoiled after eating these! DH thought they were the best ‘buns’ he’d eaten as well.

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Wow! Those are perfect.

They look lovely....but I can tell by the way they cut and the insides....they are not the hard roll of my memory!

lindac92, I googled and all I found was this, but I don't think it looks any 'harder', just chewier, due to the use of bread flour rather than all purpose. It uses an Old Dough preferment, but I somehow think this adds more flavor, and doesn't contribute to hardness. ann_t might be able to help on this. I've used poolish and biga preferments. The barley malt alters the taste and color only. I use it in my pretzel baths sometimes.

2ManyDiversions. Bravo!!!!! Well done. Your Kaisers are perfect as is that burger.

: - ) Ann, honestly, you've opened up some serious bread doors for me! DH and I are reaping the benefits of your tested recipes and encouragement! Thank you!

2many, those look awesome! I used to make Moomie's buns for burgers. Am filing Ann's recipe away for this summer when we start harvesting tomatoes.

ETA: That is bread flour, isn't it?

Cindy, I think you'd love Ann's Kaiser Roll recipe! Ann was so encouraging, and truly, they were not difficult. No, the recipe calls for AP flour, not bread, and I used AP. I find bread flour is chewier, and these rolls had such a nice hard but thin crust, with the inside being light and soft, not overly chewy as some are. They held up with all that juice from the burger, Gorgonzola, and tomato throughout, and even DH's rough handling didn't destroy the rolls. I've found some breads need bread flour for the chew, others AP for a softer bite. And then there are the various methods of dough making that alter the dough as well. I'd stick with All Purpose for this one!

I know that the recipe calls for AP, but I always use bread flour.

The hard rolls from the deli that I am talking about have no egg yolk....the insides are pure white (also bleached flour).
I wonder what the substitution of cake flour for some of the AP flour might do?

Your kaiser rolls are lovely...but not that roll I am seeking....big holes inside, soft texture in and hard and crisp outside. Sigh.....

Well, now you tell me Ann... still, I loved them too much to change!

Linda, not sure about the cake flour... It's pretty fine and I may be totally wrong on this, but I don't think it creates much gluten and would just be very dense, not hard. I don't think it'd give you what you're looking for. You mention big holes inside. Maybe try Ann_t's artisan bread stretch and fold recipe, but make a kaiser shape?

I wish I could take credit for baking these, but I found them at the local Walmart! Fresh from the oven. Exactly the same as I remembered. Nice crust, soft as cotton inside, that special Kaiser roll flavor that makes it unique. I asked the nice lady behind the bakery counter for the recipe and she said that for $1000, she would meet me tonight at the Walmart loading dock and that I should bring paper and pencil because she didn't want her voice recorded.

I'm heading to the bank right now...

Not a bad first attempt -- the knot-tying part was a lot of fun. I'll avoid the nub next time (but it's kinda cute). :) Will also brush them next time for that nice shine. Thanks to everyone for the inspiration, and thanks again to ann_t for the recipe!

Well done Javiwa. I like the little nub. I like the way it looks.

I made an "Amish white bread" on the weekend, formed half into a loaf and the other half into buns.

javiwa, your kaisers look great, great looking crust too! Yes, I brushed mine with a bit of egg white and a splash of cold water - holds the poppy seeds on a little better as well.

Jasdip, I like your buns (that sounds odd, huh?!) I've never made Amish white bread, but it looks like a good bread recipe. Baking in a cast iron 'anything' is pretty great, huh?!

TY, 2 Many -- needed a break from iced cookies. :p It's healthier for DH and me to have extra rolls and baguettes around than several dozen cookies.

Ha! Tell me about it! I made annie1992's choc chip cookies last weekend (huge ones) and we ate 2 each immediately - I froze the rest pronto!

Ann, finally tried your recipe today. Cut it in half. Think I should have made 4 rolls instead of 6. They would have been bigger. I need practice forming them and realized halfway through baking that I also needed a lower temp. I reduced it after 10 minutes and still had to cut it short. I'm thinking maybe 425 for 15-17 minutes might be better for my oven instead of 450 for 20-25.

We're having burgers tonight.

I remember wonderful Kaiser rolls slathered in butter when we worked on Wall Street in the late 60s. We could buy them at any coffee shop with our coffee, and I know Chock Full O Nuts was one retailer we frequented. I loved those Kaiser rolls.

They tasted good, but way too thick. Once the burger was on the roll I couldn't even get it in my mouth.

Well they certainly look great.

CindyMac, not a thing wrong with the shape of those rolls! I think a bit unevenness gives them a handmade look and we all know homemade is best : ) Yours look fantastic and perfect! And I can't help but eye your tommy toes in the background. Sure wish I could swipe a bowl from the screen : )

Ha ha! > "I couldn't even get it in my mouth" I hear you! I made mine huge, and my burgers are typically huge too, so we had to kind of eat 'on' them if you get my drift : )

I'm a 30 yr NewYorker. A kaiser roll is never used for burgers. It is an early morning roll, baked at 3am and used for a buttered roll or an egg sandwich. If for a lunch burger, the inside is dug out like we do bagels here. I have an 'everything' bagel once, twice a year and take the top only, then dig out the entire inside, lol, a tiny 1/8th inch smear of cream cheese and a pile of lox and capers.

No one in an NYC burger joint will win fans using kaiser rolls. I toss the bun and eat it with a knife and fork if I'm served such.

Brioche is the preferred bun. It is soft yet sturdy, toasts perfectly, ... my burger is about the quality of the meat and how it is cooked. The bun is a supporting role. Important but not the star.

Best brioche recipe for me anyway being bread challenged....light brioche buns

A better baker than I am could figure out how to make this in a spit-top for lobster rolls and sausages....I am getting better at it. A very friendly recipe.

Grrrrrr. I hate when I go to the trouble of signing in to Google, then NYT still won't let me see the page. And no, I don't want to subscribe. I hate random email even worse. So, sleevendog, would THIS be the same recipe? Says it's 'adapted from'.

Oh well. Anyway, your brioche buns look perfectly lovely to me Sleevendog. Always looking (well, not until I get the kitchen back) for another bread recipe to try!

I dolove the kaiser rolls for burgers, but I'm not a New Yorker ; ) You don't eat the kaiser roll at all? I can't imagine tossing a really good one completely to the wayside! Not even a nibble? I couldn't resist if they were good!

Dh used a Kaiser roll for his ham and cheese sandwich today. He said it was great, so they're going to disappear.

Sleevendog, I'm curious about that recipe too, but keep hitting paywalls. Even using an incognito window. Would you mind copying and pasting?

2Many, Deb's recipe is similar to Moomie's Buns. I used to make them every tomato season, but haven't for a couple years. The original recipe called for 1/4 cup sugar and 1 TB. yeast. My adaptations:

Moomie's Famous Buns

1 cup water

2 Tablespoons butter, softened

1 egg, lightly beaten

3 1/4 cups all-purpose, unbleached flour

1 Tablespoon sugar

1 teaspoon salt

2 1/4 teaspoons yeast

Egg wash:

1 egg beaten with 2 teaspoons water

sesame or poppy seeds

Mix and knead the dough by whatever method you prefer (stand mixer, using the dough hook, or wooden spoon-- it will take longer, and be more effort).

Cover bowl and allow to rise for about an hour in a warm place before shaping into buns. (Or whatever shapes you prefer; hot dog buns, dinner rolls, etc.)

Divide into 6 pieces. The dough is easy to work with; just lightly flour your hands to form into the shapes you want.

Place on greased cookie sheets, cover and allow to rise 30 to 40 minutes. It may take a little longer for larger shapes, and less time for smaller buns.

Brush with egg wash and sprinkle with seeds.

Bake in preheated 400° oven for 15-16 minutes until golden. Cool on wire racks.

moomies-legendary-sandwich-buns.html

(I recognize names from the Cooking forum many years ago!)

DH uses kaisers as his go-to for all things sandwiches, too. I spent a couple of months on several iterations of the 'perfect' whole wheat sandwich bread -- just when I thought I nailed it, he decided he prefers kaisers. :/

We just had them yesterday with for pulled pork sammies, with a sriracha/rice vinegar/mayo cole slaw (red cabbage, carrots, cilantro) smooshed in -- talk about being too fat/tall to wrap our faces around! And, yet, we trooped through...

I guess any of the adapted ones are the same as the NYTimes, like HERE

And really a mater of preference. I suppose some kaiser recipes are not the NYC kaiser.

I'm with you 2ManyDiversions. I only buy Kaiser buns for burgers or make them for that purpose. Not a fan of brioche for burgers. Way to eggy and a tad sweet for burgers or sandwiches. For my taste.

Cindy, I have used that recipe . It makes great hot dog buns. I've used it for burgers too, but I still prefer a Kaiser.

The recipe is not traditional brioche, for the record. One egg for 8-10 rolls is not eggy and sugar is not really necessary but we use a pinch, 1/2 Tbsp that helps speed up the activity in the rise. And I don't stock milk so I use the yogurt whey and a bit of the yogurt with water to get the necessary amount.

I actually thought this was a different burger bun thread and saw only the most recent comments about so much loft and bread dough...too much for me in a burger bun. Again, just a preference difference.

I've posted my dislike of sweet, especially breads, and do not taste any sweetness at all...even when we first made it with the 2 1/2 Tbsp. The butter is also 1/4 Tbsp per bun so not at all 'rich'.

In Germany they call hard rolls "brodtchen" or "butterbrodt" and they are eaten with butter and maybe jam if you want to guild the lily for breakfast or a snack. I lived on them while traveling throughout Germany in high school. I have never seen them in the US but I don't live in good bread country. The closest I have had is a good baguette. US rolls are almost always too soft and/ or too old.

I glanced at the brioche recipe (thanks for the link, sleevendog) and wondered about the amount of sugar, too. I generally make a recipe as is before fiddling with it, but good to have sleevendog's 1/2 Tbsp as a benchmark.

Well, now I'm actually looking up sweet and rich brioche recipes! Sleevendog, you made me think about the last time I made brioche - sweet, not the way you prefer, which is far less rich or sweet. Realized I've not really made a rich brioche in 30 years - and I used to bake that recipe (lost now) for everything! I mean everyday bread to buns and so forth, not even kidding. Gosh I had a serious sweet tooth! But I was young... Funny how our tastes change. I used to not like crunchy crusts also, and that has clearly changed! I do think Sleevendog's recipe lends itself well to hot dog buns (for DH and I) and I'm going to print it for later : ) Do prefer those kaisers for hamburgers, but as mentioned, my burgers tend to be very 'wet' and need something to stand up to that!

Not really up to breads just now (had the mixer out yesterday intending to also make a batch of bread dough when I realized I had a prep area only 12" W x 24" H (we're in demolition mode ya'll!) and no room for scales, for dividing, for anything! Sigh...

I think tastes and preferences vary region to region, state to state, nation to nation, and as mentioned, our tastes change over time. Since Kaiser Rolls originated in Austria (or so I've read) and Brioche from France, I can't honestly say I know what authentic brioche or kaisers taste like, and have to go with personal preferences for the most part.

CindyMac, thank you for posting your Moomie's Famous Buns recipe - and the photo. I think that, or Sleeve's would work well for my preferences with pulled pork especially.

One thing I'll probably never try are lobster rolls. DH hates seafood for the most part, and lobster here is frozen. Still, I can imagine they are amazing, and my world is smaller because I won't ever have the pleasure. But who knows, maybe someday I will treat myself : )

I love lobster rolls! Was beyond excited when a new restaurant selling crawfish and lobster rolls opened recently. What a disappointment! Nothing like the New England version.

Oh, you just had to, didn't ya, CindyMac! : ) I'd have been beyond excited too, except perhaps if it were here. We've only a few local crab places, and they are nasty. Cold and fishy tasting. I've had one whole Maine lobster (and it was fresh!) in my life and I recall it well. The one thing I truly regret about where we live now is the lack of fresh seafood and diversity - we get some that's ok, but not a lot. Which just means this forum is all the more important and special to me - if I'm going to be food adventurous, I'll have to find my own way and work with ingredients I can obtain : )

My apologies, Ricky, I went OT there : )

Back to rolls.....the best rolls for a burger are pretzel rolls....or brioche...short on the egg and sugar.
Still seeking the shattery hard roll of my memory!

http://germanculture.com.ua/baking-recipes/brotchen-crusty-german-rolls/

https://artisanbreadinfive.com/2009/02/23/german-style-rolls-brotchen-the-crusty-secret-is-an-egg-white-glaze/

https://www.thespruceeats.com/german-hard-rolls-brotchen-recipe-1447218

2Many, no stores that sell live lobsters? Most of the chains here sell them from tanks.

CindyMac, they used to have them, and still do on rare occasion. Mostly the tank is empty : ( Hmmmm. Maybe others are beating me to them? Mostly I see those frozen tails sitting in the display case. Not appetizing.