What kind of sheet rock did he specify? The correct type can be the moisture barrier by code.

It was 1/4 inch Hardiebacker, no sheet rock, just this cement backer board behind the tile. The tile goes all the way to the ceiling.

Peter,

Thank you you so much for your comments. I just went and checked the scrap pile and it was 1/2 inch Hardiebacker not 1/4”. No red guard was applied. I’ll ask him about the bit barrier - what is a bit barrier?

Your issue is that you hired a cheap hack and then designed and specified the job yourself without the knowledge to do so. No real tile contractor would ever work the way your job went. The right guy would buy the materials and supply the labor and charge you 9K. You don’t hire someone and tell them how to do the job. They should know, and they should be the ones telling you how they are doing the job, and with what materials.

The only saving grace on your job? You said the walls were concrete block. It’s difficult to damage from the moisture leaking through to it like a wood stud wall would be.

The bad news? Concrete block is porous and will wick moisture straight through it. If the block wall connects with a wooden stud wall anywhere close to the shower, you may have an issue down the road. Also, all 3 walls in your shower are not likely to be concrete block. You’ve got wood behind there somewhere. Which will become damaged.

It’s your choice how to proceed. Wait for the damage and deal with it then. Or rip it out now and start over. But what you don’t do is go back to the guy you hired and try to tell him how he should have done the job. If he knew how, he would have done it the first time and not taken your job with you trying to backseat control it by buying all the materials. This is your lesson to learn. Not his.

I've got to say that in my location, inspection-passing, permitted new construction is frequently done with shower walls covered with Greenboard and a bit of water proofing over the seams. We walked through a new construction going up today and the buyers are insisting that the greenboard be replaced with cement board. But I doubt it will get a full membrane. It's not my house, so I am not going to get overly involved.

In standard new construction here, it's greenboard or cement board (if you are lucky) and almost never any kind of membrane. When I insisted on cement board and full membranes in the bathrooms, the contractor who is by no means a hack, did it but he felt it was belt and suspenders and more related to my obsessiveness. (which he is fine with). However, when he worked for a different, fairly high level contractor they did not routinely do full membranes and cement board, just cement board. Because it was not required by inspectors. Standard here, by many many contractors is greenboard and it passes inspection.

I am not promoting this, and I insisted on more, but I am not hearing about a lot of bathtubs or shower bases falling through to the floor below because the studs have rotted through.

I definitely think there is a higher vulnerabilty but I am not sure it is a recipe for absolute catastrophic failure --or the standard here would be higher, I am assuming.

njlemon:

It's insane to rip this out before there's a problem. Depending on how much use this gets, there may never be a problem. Tell your handyman you'll settle the matter now if he gives you a 5-year labor and materials guarantee in writing.

Thank you everyone for your feedback and Happy New Year! Since the wood is only on a couple sides and since it sounds like it is not too uncommon (for right or wrong) and since it will be a guest bathroom that should only get occasional use I’m going to hope it is ok for now and keep an eye on it. But I’ll never hire that guy again.

We just moved to this area and I am having a heck of a time finding good tradesmen and contractors. The few recommendations I have received are too busy to even call me back and the ones that are available are terrible. I got this guy from Home Advisor and he had a five star rating. I’ll go back on the hunt for a new tile guy to finish the rest of the tile in the house. Anyone know someone in Denver, Colorado? :)

Peter, I thought maybe that was the case - or maybe you knew about something special I had never even heard of! :)

@palimpset: I've got to say that in my location, inspection-passing, permitted new construction is frequently done with shower walls covered with Greenboard and a bit of water proofing over the seams.

This is the reason not to rely on inspectors. I don't believe there are any building codes that address waterproofing of showers. There are so many ways: tar paper or 6 mil poly fastened to studs / all sorts of 'boards' - cement / kerdi / denshield, and seam finishes, redguard / hydroban, and then there is kerdi over drywall.

But a greenboard shower without Kerdi?? These people are truly hacks, without much pride or knowledge.

This is a '5 year shower', and these folks will be posting on this web site in a couple of years.

Many folks do not realize/understand building code specifications are MINIMUM standards. On more than one occasion, when undergoing an inspection, I was failed for doing more than code specs---which is perfectly permissible.

There are standard procedures and there are best practice procedures. Best practice for bath construction is positive moisture barriers, like Kerdi(or similar) products. Basic code requirements provide minimum moisture protection . Best practices prevents moisture problems.

Believe me I am not arguing in favor of building showers without some sort of membrane protection. I insisted on it in my own bathrooms.

But since I know this is a common building method here--even greenboard without a full membrane--I also know that I don't see large numbers of bathroom showers failing in five or ten years. And there is a certain amount of multiples evidence;

New construction in my area is almost all infills of new row houses built in multiples over several adjacent lots or on individual lots on a particular block all at one time. Many of these houses are built with a ten-year tax abatement as an enticement for people to move into redeveloping neighborhoods. So, there is a lot of turnover around the seven year mark where people want to move before the abatement ends but they also want to offer the buyer an enticement of a few years left on the abatement.

I am not seeing a lot of redone bathrooms in these houses. I am not seeing a lot of redone bathrooms in 15-20 year old houses coming onto the market. You can tell because you have the bathrooms of groups of houses to compare to each other. Surely the new bathrooms would be done with some individuality.

I've also torn out several greenboard bathrooms, including one in my current house that was Truly done by hacks, and there has been no evidence of water damage to the studwalls in back of these showers and tubs. Where I have seen a lot of damage is the horizontal junction of the tub to the floor in the corners where people let water drip outside the curtain or enclosure...water damage to the floor that then may wick up into the plate. This may speak to membraning the floor in this area.

So, I think that yes there is obviously an increased vulnerability for damage with this type of construction and why risk that, but my anecdotal evidence is that in my area where use of full membranes is a complete rarity and use of greenboard is not that uncommon, is that there is not complete and cataclysmic failure of an overwhelming percentage of these bathrooms within 5 or 10 years.

And this forum insists that the percentage of 5-yearfailure is somewhere close to 100% and terrifies everybody who's had a bathroom just completed that asked about membranes or waterproofing into believing it.

Lynch mob mentality. I suggest you get the actual code number of this supposed infraction, and look it up before staking a claim on it.

And this forum insists that the percentage of 5-yearfailure is somewhere close to 100% and terrifies everybody who's had a bathroom just completed that asked about membranes or waterproofing into believing it.

Fred S: What do you need an actual code infraction to do a good, quality job?

Really, what are we arguing about here? There's hardly any cost difference between cement board and greenboard. Then you add the cost of hydroban - what's $200 to the price of a shower? When the latter guarantees a much better job.

USG, who makes 'greenboard' has their own tile backer board solutions. No where on their web site do they recommend using greenboard under tile.

From the TCNA: The International Building Code (IBC) is somewhat ambiguous on the topic. Many in the construction industry interpret it to say drywall is strictly prohibited in wet areas, regardless of whether a waterproof membrane would be applied to the surface of the drywall. Others feel the code only prohibits direct bond of tile to drywall in wet areas. Check with a local code official for your area requirements.

It's this way: If there is any movement, a crack, a small leak - that gypsum board will go to mush, and/or grow mold.

TCNA FAQ - Showers and Steam Rooms

USG Tile Solutions

I'm certainly not arguing against using membranes.

Geoffrey, perhaps you should read the OP.

"and then I found out that it is actually required in building code."

All this bashing is due to people thinking that if they can put some anonymous person down on the internet, it makes them better. The reality is that TCNA is not a code, and the OP did not specify or pay for the installation to be any different. If we are going to have a contest as to who can be on the higher horse, then all showers should be framed with stainless steel studs, since even the "prized" systems can fail if there is any significant "movement". So, now everyone can be accused of doing a less than top quality job. Not to mention, 'other' showers have track records longer than most of these new systems have even been in existence, so the proof of kerdi's (or any other topical waterproofing method) superiority is little more than a guess at this point.

All this bashing is due to people thinking that if they can put some anonymous person down on the internet, it makes them better.

I don't know who's bashing whom? Doesn't sound like that to me.

The reality is that TCNA is not a code,

The reason is it's too complicated to be included in the code. The TCNA is engineering / common sense from many real professionals / product and method testing / and everyday acceptance by the industry.

So, now everyone can be accused of doing a less than top quality job.

If you're not using a substrate with the proper waterproofing - then yes - it's not a properly constructed job. Nor is it acceptable to use the 5-spot method to set the tiles.

In almost all these cases, doing the job the proper way doesn't involve much more money, rather it's out of ignorance of the person building the shower.

so the proof of kerdi's superiority is little more than a guess at this point

I've never used the product. I wouldn't go to the trouble to put the Kerdi on the walls with thinset, etc. I'd rather use hardiboard, tape, and hydroban.

Blah blah blah, just more "I" do it better rhetoric suggesting anything else won't last five years and trying to terrify everybody who's had a bathroom just completed that asked about membranes or waterproofing into believing it.

Neither hydroban, kerdi, redguard, or any other method is required by the IRC.

I never told anyone that it will fail. The OP came here, worried. Since it's completed, only time will tell.

You mentioned the greenboard. I do know that tile over plain old greenboard is not approved in a wet area. I have stated several sources - including USG - the maker of greenboard.

"The reason is it's too complicated to be included in the code. The TCNA is engineering...." - highly inaccurate. If you do not understand that there is WAY more engineering in the IRC than every little thing the TCNA can dig up, then you have never bothered to read or understand the IRC. They just discuised everything into tables, where they gave the actual math formulas pre-2000.

It has only been since 2006 that greenboard was no longer allowed in showers by the IRC. Not all states update to the most current codes, but to be fair, the manufacturer's approval for usage should hold some weight with the inspector, especially when there are other approved gypsum products if one is determined to use it. I do not think anyone is disagreeing on the basic principle that greenboard is not the right product, but the OP has CEMENT BOARD.

Had the last sentence here^ been included in a paragraph with the sentence above about greenboard, it may have sounded less like you were trying to scare the OP about their particular shower, and more like you were discussing the merits of an unrelated greenboard method.

"Nowhere on their web site do they recommend using greenboard under tile."

From USG site under INTENDED FOR section:

"This panel also qualifies as a water-resistant backing board for ceramic tile in residential tub and shower enclosures as permitted in the National Building Code of Canada 9.29.10.4"

USG Greenboard Data Sheet

Sure .. "QUALIFIES" points that its "minimum" type of solution not the best performer out there, but I just demolished my 40 bath in just purchased fixer-upper only because it was ugly. Not even one (1, uno) leak and was all done with regular drywall tiled over. Why? Because it was done right. In todays "quick-turn-around-flip-hot-market" everything needs to be done quick, hence leaks and fails.

So I think the bigger picture is the craftsmanship and quality of work. It really can be done if done right

For $100 extra bucks you can have cement board. I don't believe this guy is giving you any kind of warranty on this BS.

My upstairs shower isn't often used except by houseguests who stay in an adjoining bedroom. The house is about 15 years old and the shower looks fine (although I recently found out that the tile was put in with no waterproofing):

My neighbor has a pretty much identical house with the same bathroom and same tile job. However, he has two teenage girls upstairs who have used it daily for years. He recently noticed that some of the tiles were coming loose from the wall. When he explored, he found no waterproofing, crumbling sheetrock, and this kind of structural damage to the 2 X 6 walls:

The moral of all of this is that waterproofing is critical, but how a shower is used does affect the big picture. I'm not planning to redo my shower any time soon because it gets such little use and has no evidence of deterioration My neighbor's bathroom is trashed because of the original deficient installation which became the perfect storm with heavy use by a couple of teens. Unfortunately his remodel will not only include new waterproofing, but a complete rebuild of an exterior, load-bearing wall.

Proxus has now revived 3 Old threads in 2 days to get traffic on their horrible youtube video.

This is 100% bad advice not approved by either USG nor TCNA /ANSI current standards. You simply should NOT use it unless your cutting corners and cheating the end client. in the US anyways.

USG has this to say in their most recent UPDATED drywall spec sheet for greenboard.

LIMITATIONS 6. Not suitable for use as a substrate for tile in wet areas such as tubs and showers, gang showers and other areas subject to direct water exposure. 7. Use as a tile substrate is limited to tile installed according to the most current TCNA and ANSI specifi cations.