I've never been one to blame someone else for my own actions. Oh sure someone actions or words may anger, or hurt but how I react I must take sole responsability for. I have many times allowed myself to react in a negative way at the KT. Doesn't really matter how I try to justify it... whether I felt I needed to defend my point ect ect. If I choose to respond to the negative or sometimes what I consider bullying aimed at me in my own negative way ..I am in fact only playing the same game.

Rita's words above.....**Ali your point is well taken. I accept it.**

Has taught me more than most of you will understand. But I do now understand.

Well, I haven't read all the posts here, just enough to know I don't want to read them all! It's a shame that what could be an interesting topic can disintegrate so quickly into poorly disguised nastiness. And that, in a nutshell, describes exactly why I think there are so many dogs.

1. Their love is unconditional (unlike many humans)

2. They don't judge you. For anything. Ever.

There are many more reasons, but those two alone are why I like dogs a lot better than I like most people. Most of the time. To paraphrase something Barbara Bush once said, dogs are much nicer and much more likeable than people, but people should always come first.

And for me, that's the end of this discussion.

Rusty

Dogs are wolves and follow a wolf pack structure where each is either dominant or subordinate, with the humans - and other companion animals - they live with being their pack. Hence "unconditional love" etc. - they depend on the pack for their food and water.

Oh my gosh where to even begin with this.

Why do I think more people have pets than before. Because now with the internet and other media outlets the plight of animals and animal welfare has been brought to light more. We are more informed about animal abuse, neglect and also that good care is necessary. With that information people want to help more, people also now understand keeping their animals outside is dangerous. Animals freezing to death, being hit by cars, found and tortured by those who get pleasure out of it so on and so forth. Back before the internet you might see a story in the newspaper about an abuse case but that was it. You might have been brought up where it was the norm to leave your animals outside. With all the information you read daily on the internet about animal plights, care and abuse it has made people want to help and also has changed I am sure the mind set of the way people think about all animals in general. There are also those as many have mentioned who grew up watching animals being abused, tortured, no vet care and so on who vowed to never let that happen to another animal.

Animal charities vs Human charities- I donate to both. But I will tell you I research the heck out of who I donate too. How many realize that the Cancer Association, Heart Association, ASPCA actually contributes very little of the money you donate to the actual cause? They pay their overhead, advertising, employees and so on before what ever is left is actually donated to the actual cause. I personally choose to donate clothing items, food, money to actual places that use the items to help the people not use my items to sell to make money to supposedly help people, same with animal causes. I then take my items that aren't good enough to donate to people like towels, blankets and such that have stains, holes to the animal shelters who use those items daily. I provide food to both homeless shelters and animal shelters. I am one who if I saw a homeless person on the street with their animal would buy a meal for the person and provide food for that person to feed to their animal as well. If I can help them in other ways I will. What I will not do is give money to those people standing around holding signs with their kids or pets pleading for money so they can provide diapers or food. I will provide diapers and needed items to a shelter.

Tax money oh boy this one is a sensitive subject for me. I have no issues paying taxes for schools, parks, road work, dog parks etc. At one time in my life I was a young single mother who had to rely on government benefits to survive. Did I like it? No, did I do everything I could to be on it for as little time as necessary? Yes. But what I saw and continue to see is people who make a living off my tax dollars. They strive to have more children to collect more money, to get housing assistance, food assistance. They know as long as they have a child under a certain age they are not required to go to work or job training and they continue to keep having children they can't afford to keep getting assistance. This is a huge hot button for me. I do not mind my tax dollars going to help families in need who strive to help themselves but those that live off it Oh boy. I will pay to for a park, dog park, school anything that enriches peoples lives. If my paying for a school helps one child strive to make it out of poverty and get an education or provide an activity for them have a meal at school or an after school program please take my money.

Animals vs Family- My animals are my family. I take care of them just like I do what is left of my family which is 2 living relatives both who now live with me. My father and my son. I spoil them like I spoil my animals. I will be honest and tell you I get more love, appreciation and sometimes enjoyment from my animals than I did/do my family. My family both living and deceased expected far more out of me than they ever gave back in return. If am I sick or was sick or just having a bad day most of my family would be like sucks you're sick but can you do this, do that or sorry your sick but I have no time for you right now to help you feel better but when they are sick Oh boy the world ends. Maybe a lot of you are lucky to have family that is not like that but I find in my world this is not uncommon with many people I know with their families. At least my animals seem to know when I don't feel well or am having a bad day and will cuddle up lay their head on my shoulder and maybe give me a little kiss ( I have cats) and just that little bit of love makes me feel better. In fact true story. I had not been feeling well for awhile. I would have periods my heart raced and I'd just feel crappy. Mention it to my family and they'd say must be to much sugar, caffeine. I started noticing at certain points when I'd have these episodes my one cat would jump on my lap and paw at the left side of my chest. I'd put her down and she would come right back and keep pawing at it, throwing herself against me and just really being at the time what I was calling a pest. I went to my doctor and told him about the episodes and that he was going to find it silly but my cat kept pawing my chest when it happened. He sent me to a cardiologist that day who put me on a holter monitor. During those episodes she would do her pawing thing and I was to write down when I didn't feel well. Well come to find out I had A-Fib and when those episodes would happen she could tell and was trying to tell me! The holter monitor confirmed it.

I give the same medical care to animals as I do humans. If my son had cancer or a condition that he needed medical care for you can bet your a** every dollar I had would be spent trying to treat him, the same goes for my animals. Just like with my child when I had him I knew it was a lifelong commitment to give him the best life and care I can provide. The same goes for my animals. The one thing I will say about animal medical care vs human care is animal care can be far more humane than human care. What I mean by that is if my animal is suffering and I know there is no hope I can humanely choose to end their suffering. I am currently watching a person I love very much suffering from brain cancer. She can not communicate verbally anymore, she is unable to get up out of bed and lays there day after day. Though she can not communicate verbally her eyes and her movements tell us everyday she is in great amounts of pain and is suffering. You can tell she no longer wants to be in this world suffering anymore and there is not a darn thing we can do about it. When an animal is like that you end their suffering but also end the expensive medical costs. I believe the insurance companies make far too much money off of things that this and it puts the financial strain on the families if they can afford to pay or they can not pay they get put into bankruptcy and lose their homes or the government is forced to pick up those expenses thus raising our tax rates and our insurance premiums to cover things this.

I live in Florida recently Irma was to hit my area as a Cat 4. I decided to evacuate. There was no way I was leaving my animals behind. I rented an SUV I loaded each one in their carriers packed them in the SUV with my valuables and my family and I had a 3 car caravan right out of Florida. I knew no shelter would take us and if they did animals were not permitted with people. I called my credit card concierge to help me find a pet friendly hotel. They found a nice Hilton property in Indiana who normally does not permit cats but said if I paid a pet deposit they would allow us to stay on their property. I was so grateful to get anything I could because hotels were very very hard to find at that point and pet friendly even harder especially with cats. I feel so bad for those who have to leave their pets behind because circumstances do not allow for it. For me there is no way I would could leave them behind and fully understand why they would stay with their animals if they have too. Again, I promised to care for them for their life.

I will never be able to change someones mind on how they feel about pets being family. I believe you either feel it or you don't. I do not judge those who prefer to not have pets and I do not judge how they prefer to spend their money. I would appreciate the same courtesy. You don't have to understand it and just because you may not understand it does not mean we are lonely, un socialized whatever it just means we have a different mindset and that's ok.

I'm sometimes sorry *Barbara* Bush wasn't president.

However...it is not true that dogs are nicer or more likeable than people. That is a self-serving, subjective perception. It's also a presumption based on a subservient household pet, not a dog acting AS a dog, within a pack of dogs.

Perhaps people have a need to believe that they are vital to someone or something -- even that they are 'rescuers'. In reality, a pet is a dependent that -- conveniently for the human's belief -- cannot laugh at the concept, and wouldn't if he wants his dinner.

'Do people understand what a dog IS -- or care? Seems to me if you have
to use a dog walker or 'day care', maybe you should choose a different
pet. Dogs are pack animals; they don't do 'alone' well and 'outside
alone' is downright cruel.'

Well said, chisue.

'Personally, I think you just do not have the affinity for animals. No
offense intended, but you are probably not suited to have a pet.'

Good grief.

:

One house that no longer has a pet.

“Do people understand what a dog IS — or care?

Umm, yes, do you?

“Seems to me if you have to use a dog walker or ‘day care’, maybe you should choose a different pet.’

Seems to me that you are making a lot of assumptions about a lot of people that you haven’t a clue about. Seems to me that you assume that everyone’s life is exactly like yours or yours is the only life that is “right”. Seems to me that you don’t really understand what the dog lovers in this thread have tried over and over and over again to convey to you. Whatever. It’s really none of your business what people like to spend their money on, who they donate to, if they have the right pet or the wrong pet, or even how it’s maintained as long as that pet is well cared for. It’s none of your buisness if others feel that their dog is more worthy of their time than most people these days. Stop patronizing those who don’t feel the same as you, it’s getting old. Try instead to learn how to accept others who feel or see the world differently than you without judgement.

Mdln, that is the only thing I’ve seen him do right.

mdln, I can't help but believe that it's a win for any animal who might have been considered and rejected. It's a good break from tradition in my mind.

That creep doesn't deserve a dog. Or a cat. Or a flea off one of their butts.

LOL...keep em coming AmyLou! You are totally making my day!

I don't understand what is so wrong about using a dog walker or doggy day care. I work some long hours, and if there were such a thing where I live, I would use it. Now, I fret about leaving the dogs for 9 hours. I make sure I get up and walk them early in the morning. Who are you to tell me that I shouldn't enjoy the company of a pet or two because I use a dog walker, dog sitter, or doggy day care. This thread is nauseating to me, I'm deleting it from my mind.

Yes, with pet service workers filling in at least part of the time the animals are not left for the entire stretch without attention and reassurance.

Chisue, your thread is getting a lot of response, but not a lot of discussion, I think. Perhaps it's time to let it rest, maybe approach the subject again later?

In the meantime, two thoughts. If anyone wants to think about dogs as "dogs", I recommend reading "The Social Life of Dogs" by Elizabeth Marshall Thomas. Interesting food for thought from a keen observer.

Second, perhaps the question should be "Why So Few Dogs in middle-class USA suburbia in the 50's/60's?"

over and out :-)

I'm here all day almost every day for my five pets. My neighbor isn't and works sometimes late. She has a pet sitter come and take her three dogs out in the yard for a runaround. Should she not have a pet because of her hours? She's home on the weekends and every night with them. She's a single woman and these ARE her kids.

If having to use a petsitter or daycare disqualifies one from owning pets, does that mean anyone who wants to have children should not have to use daycare,babysitters,summer camps, or have a job? I know that schools act as a babysitter of sorts after a certain age,( and a free one at that thanks to me and other taxpayers,unless one sends them to private school) but really, shouldn't you be chained to your offspring at all times? In fact, if you can't homeschool your children, work from home, and devote every second of your life for the rest of your life to being in the same 10 foot square as them,you shouldn't have kids. You are a bad parent and selfish at that.

Again, doesn't that sound straight up STUPID?!?!?!?!?

"However...it is not true that dogs are nicer or more likeable than people. That is a self-serving, subjective perception. It's also a presumption based on a subservient household pet, not a dog acting AS a dog, within a pack of dogs."

Okay,I just saw this and nearly choked on my cheese puffs. Chisue, dogs are not nicer than people? Let's explore that. Dogs are not making scam calls to seniors to steal their life savings. Nor are they neglecting and abusing them in nursing homes while their children forget about them. Dogs did not hack into Equifax to cash in on people. There is not a cartel of border collies beheading dozens of people a day for control of the drug trade. There is not one dog on the internet looking for a child to buy from another dog for sex. There are no dogs trafficking people,including children, as sex slaves all over the world. A dog has never kicked in someone's door to rape them. Dogs are not out robbing people( although there was an incident with a missing chicken finger some years back,but I have no proof either way,and so wont point fingers) You get the picture.

(Well,YOU probably dont,but others might)

Amy, you made some good points. Now can you toss me some cheese puffs and tell me about that chicken finger. I'm not poking fun Amy, I just thought the cheese puff and chicken was cute. And somehow you lightened my mood. Thanks

Yes mama,I have my suspicion of what happened to that chicken finger,but I prefer to think that the PEOPLE at Popeyes just shorted me one. Surely one of my little angels wouldn't have stolen it. (I'm sure the satisfied and rather smug look on sams face was from the joy and pleasure of my company alone)

I agree MP, after reading some of the thoughts in this thread, I was able to read Amy’s quick witted responses and laugh out loud. This one still has me laughing

“Everyone needs to calm down and go pet their dog,or cat. To those without pets, I don't know,go pet yourself I guess.”

Better yet, most animals of every kind(birds too) are wonderful parents and in many ways better than 1/2 the humans who have kids.

My Mom used to love to watch the news and she would say "they are acting like a bunch of animals, but animals would have more sense!" I know RIGHT!?

Dogs can be whatever you want to think they are. YOU decide. They can't talk or act in the world to disabuse you of your notions. This is true whether you love them or are petrified by them. It's YOUR perception. I find it crazy to contend that dogs are people, let alone superior or more deserving than people -- or and to put their needs and care ahead of the needs of human beings.

Remember the Golden Rule? It's about caring for others as you would have them care for you. This is not talking about animals, but those pesky PEOPLE. Yes, it can be difficult. I think that's the part where you recognize that YOU are a 'people'.

Dogs are great. They have a place. I'm astounded, though, to read here that anyone thinks dogs are as or more deserving of care and attention than people.

Fortunately, I also got other answers. Thank you. "Goodnight, Gracie." LOL

I think the Golden Rule applies to everything. And we'd be better as people if we regarded all of the earth as importantly as we regard ourselves. Perhaps a more Native American philosophy.

I think people often overestimate themselves at the expense of others. And need to learn some humility. Animals can teach that.

The Golden Rule should apply to everything. People, animals, and the environment. The people first philosophy is how our world ended up so messed up anyway.

I much prefer my dogs (and cats) company over most people.

Ok, I'm wading in. I have been away and not following the KT every day. I did see this thread a couple of times but intentionally stayed away from it because I knew it'd most likely make my blood boil.

I've not read all of the thread - only some of it. And I was right .... it has made my blood boil.

Perhaps someone(s) already said this ..... but why is there a question about supporting either needy people or needy animals? They're not mutually exclusive. MANY people (myself included) contribute (money, time) to both.

For those that are challenging people about why they donate to animal charities, do YOU donate to people charities? If not, you don't have a horse in this game.

I am VERY active in animal causes. Not crazy, extremist causes, but shelters, fostering, financial, volunteering, etc. Oh, and by the way, as I noted, I've been away. Guess where - - - - I've been volunteering for a week at a location out of state that is for seriously ill children and their families. So - - - - like many, I'm sure, we cover both.

Are those of you who are finding fault with animal-based causes doing anything at all for human-based? If not, don't judge. We're supposed to help this world. How we decide to do so is our choice, but don't think that everybody does only one cause.

Native Americans didn't spend their days picking flowers for floral arrangements and berries for dinner. Many bands were brutal, war-making peoples who practiced atrocities and brutalities long before the arrival of Europeans. I believe evidence for these views are well agreed. In these respects, they weren't much different from other humans besides living in societies and with cultures that were significantly less advanced and less enlightened by real knowledge than what had be achieved elsewhere over the centuries of human evolution. So, do you really want to espouse their practices and ideals?

Companion animals are animals. Just like people, some seem saintly and loving while others are unpredictable and dangerous/destructive. To generalize and compare unlike things is silly.

Love and protect animals for what they are. Don't humanize them or treat them as surrogate children. And be careful of the extremists, like PETA and others, who really try to advance their own agendas which aren't always for the general good of animals AND people taken together.

Elmer, to each their own. As long as we (the collective "we" help in some way, we're doing good. What are you doing?

PETA kills a sickening number of adoptable pets every year. Their excuse has always been that they need the money that would be spent on the animals upkeep and adoption efforts to fund their publicity stunts.(not their EXACT words,obviously,but that was what it boiled down to) To them,throwing pig blood on a kardashian is more important than helping animals they have taken into theit care.They should be ashamed of themselves.

Suzieque, I'm quite confident to say that I've likely given more money for animal welfare than any of you, and likely, more than many of you have, combined. I don't say that to brag, it's an honest answer to a quasi-taunting question. It would have gone unsaid otherwise.

ok, Elmer = you're the best, you do more than anyone, you're better than anyone, and you deserve the highest high fives. Satisfied now? Please know that many of us are in this not for high fives or recognition or kudos - - - we prefer to be anonymous and simply contributatory. And as for your allegations that you've given more $$ than any or us - - - what???? You've no idea - - - and I resent your self-serving congratulations. Those of us who contribute for no recognition "get" that self congratulations aren't the idea. Gag me.

I've given copious amounts of dollars and time for both amimal and people oriented causes. I don't look for kudos or anything. In fact, I feel guilty that I get so much return an emotion in my giving.

So Elmer - - - - I give money and time to people-oriented and animal-oriented causes. I've no patience for people who judge. I only wish that those to whom I'm volunteering get as much return as I do.

Theres a story somewhere in the Bible about a rich man giving a bunch of money but compared to what he owned it wasn't a lot, and a poor man giving only a few pennies but it was all he had. The poor man came out smelling a lot better.

People who give for animals many times the money is just the tip of the iceberg, they give love and time and food and help. They are giving themselves.

Money isn't everything.

Love and protect animals for what they are. Don't humanize them or treat them as surrogate children

Agree with this. Dogs are domesticated wolves and demonstrate therefore many similar behaviors. Including territorial conflicts as well as habitual competitiveness and aggression, even within the same group.

In addition to numbers of other pets and livestock people have been killed by dogs that got loose and went on rampages.

Ever see that documentary where a stronger wolf pack goes to where a neighboring pack is denning in a cave, drives away the adults and then hangs out at the cave until all of the pups of the neighboring pack have starved to death right in front of them? And then saunters off happily back to its own home area?

And cavemen used to drag women around by the hair. Humans have evolved, dogs have evolved.

Can't believe I actually opened this thread again.

ETA: MOST people treat their pets well, like members of the family. Many on this thread have blown that all out of proportion. We aren't hoping to see them grow opposable thumbs and learn to say mama and dada. I think many of you just like the argument. Have at it!

Since I don't have a dog in this fight (ok, maybe not funny), I'm just reading and forming my own opinions and

I hate to see my "imaginary friends," as DH calls you, quarrelling. :(

Haha Littlebug! It is a little funny. We're all like a dog with a bone.

*pinching myself to make sure I'm real, not imaginary*

Moonie last night you were quite real. Haha.

My daughter told me that there are a few subjects that always get heated on the web. Pet topics are up there with sure to incite heated discussions. I can see this is true.

Suzieque, your initial question to me seemed snarky. I wasn't trying to make a point nor elevate myself. Your response to what I said, ditto.

The assumptions and guesses you've made have taken you down several wrong paths and ultimately off a cliff - you're not remotely close to describing me, my motivations or my activities in any way.

Your daughter is right, mamapinky. What I find so strange is the push-back from those who are not so excited about pet ownership. Of course those of us that are, are passionate about defending our stance of love and loyalty for our pets. Why take such a strong stance against it if not only for the sake of argument? Well, there are the zealots who believe it against animal rights to domesticate them but i dont think we have anyone here to fit that bill.

moonie_57 (8 NC), I would counter that the strong stance is not usually taken by those of us that are "not so excited about pet ownership". The so-called "pushback" is pretty much always from pet owners. And it is here in this thread, as well. I stated earlier that these threads rarely remain civil, and this one is a perfect example of that. I don't know why I even even try to participate in such threads. Calm and respectful discussion is impossible. Oh well.

Moonie this thread has confused me and shocked me. Its always been my belief that having a pet, how the pet is cared for and treated (excluding abuse), how much time or money is spent on the pet, to who or where and how much is given to charity, whether a person wants, likes or loves animials, has them doesn't have them, yada yada was part of our freedom of choice. None of us should be judged on these choices. Yet all of us have been in this thread or at least its felt that way. LOL.

"When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.” -Earl Nightingale

Chess, im confused. Granted i haven't read the last responses of the past few days (and I'm fairly certain I wasn't disrespectful) i wasn't aware that you felt strongly against people putting so much of themselves into there pets, treating them as family. I remember that you like animals, just don't want any. I must have missed something!

Mamapinky, I'm confused too! Lol

Shoulda stuck to my guns and just bowed out gracefully days ago, as intended. :)

ME to Moonie.

moonie_57 (8 NC), " I remember that you like animals, just don't want any. "

Yes, that is correct. And yes, you missed a few posts I guess. Was nothing you posted though. :-)