Andi -- Sorry you are not interested in discussion.

Not talking about *criminals* here. If you know how to regulate that element, let's hear it. (A long time ago I sold a car to someone who never registered it and drove it with another's car's license plates. I learned to be smarter after the car was involved in an accident, with the VIN still registered to me. I had not made sure that *I* was not legally responsible for that car.)

Do you object to gun registration on a national level? How are guns less important to be traceable to their owners than vehicles?

The Wiki link is in itself evidence why we need NATIONAL gun laws. Other nations national gun laws have proven successful. We aren't living when many people never went farther from home than a horse could carry them in a day. It is simple go buy your weapons in a lax-gun-law state and bring them home, undetected. See: Chicago.

The NRA ate away at Chicago's no-longer-strict gun laws. VP Pence's Indiana makes it simple for gangs here to supply themselves there. The result is the oft-decried inner-city carnage. (Look! Look! You could effect some criminal behavior right there!)

City-by-City or State-by-State gun regulation does not work in the UNITED States. It's working well to DISUNITE us though. I wonder who would have that agenda?

Nice weather we're having today.

We're living in an upside-down country, where little makes sense anymore. I will NEVER understand the utter worship of guns.

Jim, it nice here, too. Lots and lots of much needed rain. :-)

I was just looking at the National Weather Service site and they are predicting a new hurricane will form by the weekend. Their initial forecast shows that I could be on the eastern fringes. Exciting.

Oh I pray it stays out at sea!

Ok, some of you trying to counter the topic. Find .... but why not just SOB? Let it go and don't contribute if you want this to take another tact. Either be part of the conversation or, if you're not interested, start another thread. Pfffft.

For me, I think that the ideal would be a middle ground. I own a gun. I don't hunt, I don't carry it for protection, I don't carry it at all. I go to the range and practice target shooting - - - - a paper target that I try to hit the bull's-eye. I'll never, ever, ever hurt anyone or anything with it. I like the sport of hitting a paper target. I also like skeet shooting. I'm a licensed owner who exercises my right.

Oh, also I tend to vote left.

Gun shooting is hardly a sport.

If I had a hobby that used equipment that when used by others caused people to die, would you suggest I maybe could find something else to do ?

I knew about the guy in this link before it hit the news. He works with the courier guy who delivers our RX drugs to the store. I'm so in awe of the thousands of people who risked their own lives to save strangers. All the men who told their wives to run while they stayed behind to tend to the injured and helped more escape or hide. Of the passers by who weren't even at the concert who picked up injured people and drove them to the hospitals. Of all the doctors, nurses, paramedics, police who were at home with their families and ran to help even before their phones rang to come back to work.

My son owns weapons. He said it could have been a LOT worse if the shooter had used different bullets. He was surprised the death count was that low considering what the shooter (I refuse to use his name) had in his room.

This is the article about the man from Calgary who saved his wife, then helped a few others before being hit.http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/steve-arruda-las-vegas-paddock-shooting-1.4328746

Gun shooting is hardly a sport.

Good grief. Markmanship goes back to the 1896 at the first Olympic Games.
https://www.olympic.org/shooting

Public high schools right here in left wingnut land (San Francisco Bay Area) had rifle clubs in the 60's. Shooting clubs at schools across the nation were commonplace. Police used to come to schools and give talks on gun safety. The horror!! They allowed children to actually handle various firearms. Funny how kids weren't shooting at each other in those not really so distant years.

DS developed his love of the sport in Boy Scouts when he went to his first weeklong camp as a third grader (Webelo) and found out he happened to be a natural at marksmanship.

Elmer, I'm just not going to engage with you. Have at it.

Elmer: If I had a hobby that used equipment that when used by others caused people to die, would you suggest I maybe could find something else to do ?

This is one of the most absurd, pompous and arrogant sounding things I've seen you write.

Time to ban all forms of transportation, when used by impaired people cars, planes, trains cause other people to die. (and according to a quick Google search, they kill more than guns do as of 2015). Time to ban alcohol and while we're at it, let's make drugs illegal because the user can cause other people to die. But wait! We did that one many years ago and the ongoing program is SO SUCCESSFUL, our drug rates are next to nothing, right? LOL Not in my part of the country!

Why not start enforcing what we have, which as a country WE DO NOT DO WELL. Then see what needs adjustments.

Mystical, one of the very first lessons we learned in law school was that there was no law if there could be no enforcement. I am afraid we cannot enforce the laws we already have with respect to guns. And when you add our loosening drug use laws and a sharp increase in mental health problems combined with a decrease in mental health care, I think we have to consider how best to protect most people. Naturally most gun owners are not dangerous people- but what do we do about the few who can cause such a great deal of carnage? People make bad decisions every day and having access to serious weapons like that can allow a person's temporary mental impairment to turn into a permanent problem for others- and most likely for himself.

The law is not working because it is unenforceable. What are we to do?

I don't know that we CAN'T enforce current laws, but it's certainly true that we DON'T. If it means tweaking a law to make it more enforceable, then that should be looked into, obviously and when it comes to guns, I've stated that more than once. Banning them won't fly in this country.

With the increasing number of homeless and the problems they cause, and acknowledging that a great many of them have mental issues, I see that as a bigger problem, myself. Altho the abundance of crimes caused there are less "newsworthy or spashy" in nature, my personal belief is that more people are affected overall. And no, I don't have a "link" to back that up. It's a personal belief. We just don't hear as much about it, because we don't want to address mental issues. No one has a clue about a solution to that problem. Area news focuses on homeless camps maybe twice a year? Once in the winter when it's cold and there's a drive to offer hot food on one day. And once in the summer when the smell of ripe bodies and their waste covers more than the immediate area and can affect the tourist trade.

But there are a myriad of laws out there that need attention. Transportation is another one of them. People driving without insurance, people driving under the influence, around here driver's ed is no longer offered through school curriculum, etc. etc. We could each cite an area of life that needs attention desperately.

But to say " If I had a hobby that used equipment that when used by others caused people to die, would you suggest I maybe could find something else to do ?" is ridiculous. I was bowing out of this discussion until that was posted.

I expressed it poorly. I think target shooting isn't a sport because to me, sports involve athleticism. Many things are competitive without being a sport. Bridge is an example. But if you want that to remain legal, fine. Let's permit 22s and shotguns for skeet to be retained and ban everything else.

Mystical, I'll do a better job than you did in withholding personal comments. Several come to mind to describe people whose minds are closed. Be happy as you are without thinking everyone else is the same.

Rita hits the nail on the head. How come so many people seem to do no thinking anymore? Are we stuck doing nothing because there's so much misinformation, ignorance and pig-headed thinking in the country about this issue?

"Banning them won't fly in this country." The tide has turned on this just like it did on gay marriage. Barrack Obama did not endorse gay marriage when he ran for president the first time. By the time he left office - the issue was completely moot. The demographics are not on your side, Mystical.

Rita, I'm curious as to what signs you are seeing that the tide has turned.

"The tide has turned on this just like it did on gay marriage. "

I agree. The time for strict gun laws has arrived. This should never have happened, but lets make sure it doesn't happen again.

I just spoke to my supermarket cashier friend.....he's a conspiracy nut job....(preface). Says this was a set up to undermine the NRA. Even the fruits & nuts are rattled.

Here's an article on how Trumps views on gun laws are changing:

Stricter as time goes on

I have always, ALWAYS supported stricter gun laws. A "ban" is entirely different to my way of thinking.

And Elmer, while I agree my mind is closed in one direction, there are others closed in the other direction. I don't try to change other people's opinions, just try to express mine without ridicule.

Suzieque -- Wouldn't you (and your guns) be safer if you kept them locked up AT the gun club? Maybe you do? You 'play' with a gun, but it is still a lethal weapon, yes? I'd prefer that my gun not be 'at home' -- possibly to be used there, against me or mine -- or by me in fear or anger. I'd also think that people who just collect guns would be glad to meet and talk to other people with the same interest -- at a club where the collections could be safely stored.

What is the objection to registering guns, like motor vehicles are registered? If a gun of mine was discovered to have been used in a felony, I'd be darn glad to be able to prove that it and I no longer had any connection! I would have reported it sold, or reported when it 'went missing'.

There are serious responsibilities in owning a weapon made to be accurately lethal.

No non-military vehicle is made to be a weapon. Let's refrain from such specious 'comparisons'. Let's skip the misdirection arguments of *other social problems*, too: Homeless, mental illness, people who do not obey laws, etc. This is about people dying and being maimed in public and in homes, by bullets shot from...guns. It's not about 'anger management'.

*Something* changed in other free nations that formerly allowed guns in society. Discussion is necessary if we are to halt this carnage that involves guns in public hands.

Gun ownership is highest among white, men in their 50s- the very last of the Baby Boomers. I don't think younger people are going to replicate this pattern. According to the same poll, white men in their 20s are not nearly as likely to be gun owners. I think gun ownership probably begins when you are young. It is also worth noting that the outrageously high number of guns out in the population is a relatively new phenomenon (meaning a few gun owners own many, many guns.)

In addition the popular culture is squarely against the proliferation of guns/high powered weapons in society- just like popular culture railed against laws barring homosexuals from marrying less than a decade ago.

I think it is really important to remember that our current situation with powerful guns out in the hands of the multitudes is nothing like what was historically normal in this country. Consider the quotation below from Gov. Ronald Reagan in 1967 with respect to the Mulford act:

"Both Republicans and Democrats in California supported increased gun control. Governor Ronald Reagan was present when the protesters arrived and later commented that he saw "no reason why on the street today a citizen should be carrying loaded weapons" and that guns were a "ridiculous way to solve problems that have to be solved among people of good will." In a later press conference, Reagan added that the Mulford Act "would work no hardship on the honest citizen."[7]"

The mythology that exists around gun ownership in this country is perplexing. The ideal of the rugged American who is self-sufficient exerts a powerful pull on the imagination. I understand that. American individualism and the pioneer spirit of this country are two of my favorite aspects about the national character here. But we have to be careful when powerful companies manipulate emotions in order to sell their products. I am very hopeful about the future of gun ownership because in addition to Americans caring about their personal freedoms, they are a people who care deeply about one another. They are quick to volunteer and help their neighbors both near and far. There is no way this violence will be allowed to stand. A solution will be found. People who want a weapon to hunt or to protect themselves will be able to do those things- but people who wish to have weapons intended for the military or police will no longer be able to have them. The consensus is building and when the time comes the switch will be immediate, like it was for marriage equality. (What to do with all the weapons lying around the country will be a major hurdle, of course.)

I'll find the poll I read and post it later should anyone like to see it.

ETA Quotation from Wiki on Mulford Act.

Geez, louise. Chisue, my gun is locked up at my home. Only I and my husband know where the key is, We have no resident children. How about if you lock up your car at a car dealership so nobody can steal it and drive drunk?

ETA: And yes, my gun is registered. I'm fingerprinted, background checked, had to wait 2 months to get my LTC, and it's safely stored. Again, I lean left. Geez. Where are the lucid people?

Thanks Rita, that makes sense. I was thinking some event was what you were referring to. Having always lived in California, the laws in most other states seem very lax and I don't get as much of a feel for mood changes elsewhere.

Rita said "A solution will be found. People who want a weapon to hunt or to protect themselves will be able to do those things- but people who wish to have weapons intended for the military or police will no longer be able to have them."

I agree wholeheartedly about this and it is exactly what we need, common sense gun laws. Unfortunately what we have are both extremes screaming at each other, "you don't need guns" "you'll pry them from my cold dead fingers".

I don't actually own any guns but basically everyone I know does. I certainly know how to shoot and my older 2 kids have fired a 22 rifle. Everyone I know that has a gun has it for either hunting or personal protection and I feel they should have that right. Registered, cooling off period for purchasing, hell, I would prefer that anyone wanting to buy a gun first have a (gun safety) license, etc.

They should have every right to protect themselves. They don't need a weapon specifically designed for war to do it.

Add my name to Texas_Gems post, except I do own a pistol and keep it in my nightstand loaded with one chamber empty. No kids or anyone else to worry about shooting themselves with it. And yes I know how to use it responsibly.

This will be my only contribution to the actual gun law debate. While I am 110% for gun control, I don't think you who are against it, have to worry about hand guns. The gun control should be for those whose aim is so ridiculously bad they feel the need to arm themselves with a semi automatic weapon and start shooting hoping they hit something. In photography, it's called "spray and pray". If your aim is that bad, you don't need a gun. The only people who should own semi automatic or fully automatic weapons are the military and the police.

(Suzique, I hope you won't be offended but I too wondered what measures you took to ensure your, and the public's, safety when you were not enjoying your time at target practice. Thank you for answering. In my mind, you are a poster-child for one type of reasonable, responsible gun ownership. Your hobby is not my cup of tea, but that doesn't mean others can't enjoy it.)

It’s pretty obvious to me that the right to gun ownership and the actual ownership of guns did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to help any of the 550+ that were shot/killed in Las Vegas.

To the poster who keeps their gun in the night stand, loaded....I hope to God you don't ever have guests like children or teens. I just think that is very scary.

Mama pinky, my gun is loaded, yes, ( what would be the sense if it wasn't?) and in a zippered pistol case at the back of the drawer. There are no children or teens that I need to worry about.....and if there were, I think I am smart enough to put the gun away or lock the drawer.

mamapinky, you are so right. To drive that point home, here is an example. The 3 year old from next door was visiting here with her Mom and 7 year old brother. Not noticed by the 3 adults and the 7 year old, the little girl apparently went into my bedroom. We only know that because 2 years later we finally found the marble from a game that disappeared on that day so long ago. It was found where she apparently dropped it into the glass chimney of a small lamp that sits on the headboard of the bed.

Iigmd, that's where being responsible comes in as that child could have choked on that marble! Those kinds of things should be put away too when young children are around.

Suzieque -- You said you only used your guns at a range. I'm not understanding why it would not be safe-ER if they stayed where you use them. Your home wouldn't be 'targeted' by someone who wants your guns. You would not be targeted when you are transporting them. I see vehicles with gun club and pro-gun decals. You sound to smart for that, but it would be simple for someone to follow anyone leaving a gun club. A club could have 'bank vault' security.

(The only home invasion in our condo development over the years was at a unit owned by a woman who was seen to wear a variety of expensive jewelry.)

I'm glad to learn that your guns are registered -- and to a responsible owner. More people might either become qualified or think twice before buying a lethal weapon 'to feel safe' if they couldn't buy a gun without a gun license and they had to register the gun. It would be great to raise awareness of the responsibility attached to owning a gun.

Ammunition is serious business too. It could be regulated as a controlled substance that you sign for, as you do for some medications. No big deal unless your purchases exceed a reasonable limit. (You sellin' pills on the street, fella? You plannin' a massacre?)

Your auto analogy has a faulty premise. Cars have legitimate peaceful uses in public. They are not created for use as projectiles. The shooter in Las Vegas wasn't raining cars down on people or 'leaving his keys in his car' to be stolen by a drunk. Cars are also registered, with laws controlling their use/misuse.

marylmi, no grands or any small children other than this little girl have been in my home in the last 15 years. This family had just moved in next door about a month prior. I should have had the foresight to know that someday they might come calling and so put away the several games that are normally on display to play in the family room. That day, when the marble disappeared, they were all put away for the next 3 or 4 years. The girl, now 12, comes over often to play with them.

There's no way a marble can be compared to a loaded gun in a night stand...I'm not trying to pick...it just disturbs me..a responsable gun owner also makes sure guns are kept locked up tight and out of sight.

Thank you, nickel_kg.

To others that just don't seem to understand that anything ..... Anything .... is a problem in the hands of a madman, ok, how about this. Golfers. How about leaving your clubs at the golf course because if someone breaks into your house and steals them, and they're a madman, they can use them to kill people. Do you lock up your woods and irons at home? Do you leave them at the golf course?

Or this: baseball bats. Or bows and arrows, for those that use them to hit non-living targets. Or dogs. Hey, how about leaving your dog at a boarding place because, of course, a bad dog can kill. I know, I know, I'm being extreme. But .... c'mon.

The issue, to me, is that ANYTHING can be a lethal weapon when in the hands of a bad/sick/ill/dangerous person. Yes, different degrees, of course. The above was sort of tongue-in-cheek. But those of us who are responsible, lock things up, and are SANE shouldn't be told to leave our entertainment of choice someplace else. SMH.

I wonder if anyone here could come up with a poem that features different similes for the countries like the one above? An Indian might have a different image of England than a steaming cup of tea. And I am sure Chinese person from Nanking would think of something other than thermal baths for Japan. I am very far from being a rah-rah American cheerleader, but to liken America to its worse vice while contrasting it with other countries' tourist images is not fair.

The difference between a gun and other items that could be used to kill someone, like a knife, car or golf club, is that the primary purpose of a gun is to kill. The primary purpose of everything else is different. Knives are for cooking, cars are for transportation and golf clubs are for golf. If someone is killed by these things, it's the exception.

Yes, some people use guns for sport, but most people who use guns use them for self-defense, or to kill people or animals. Soldiers and police officers don't carry around golf clubs. They carry guns because guns are designed to kill quickly and efficiently.

Guns were made to kill things. I don't think it's comparable to other objects.

Many persons of other countries unfortunately do associate America with guns; when I was in Paris, when I said I lived in Chicago, the barber cutting my hair said bang-bang jokingly (Al Capone). And all those Westerns. And these are recent gun-related allusions.

Scott, the Chicago gangland image pre-dates America's gun violence epidemic by decades. I am not American and I can tell you that when my civil engineer grandfather was hired to work on the Deep Tunnel in the late 1970s, my grandmother's first reaction was to clutch her pearls and trot out the old Hollywood images of the Chicago typewriter, Al Capone and such. Even she knew this was a tinsle town fabrication, though.

Today, sadly America is known for its promiscuous gun culture throughout the world, but it's not fair to compare that vice to the post card images of other countries who have their own serious vices (Brazil's murder rate is staggering for example.) Fortunately this country is known for its many excellent qualities too. America is known as the country of innovators and doers, a country of compassion, first to respond to catastrophes around the world with aid and volunteers.

If we want to move forward as a country and find a way out of the political gridlock that has bound up our ability to respond to the epidemic of gun violence, we would do well to focus on what makes America strong and united, not what weakens the country and divides it. Many Americans feel strongly about their right to have guns. No Americans want to see their fellow citizens gunned down by madmen. We can solve this problem if we acknowledge that we all want the same end result: a country where we are safe from madness powered by high powered weapons. It does us no good to constantly repeat how right we are to ourselves and among ourselves. That is how Trump became president.

Chi- I'm sorry but I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Knives primary purpose has not historically been cooking.

Knives are used to kill things. To destroy them, to eviscerate them. They were invented, honed and refined precisely for their ability to destroy, kill and tear apart other things.

Luckily, no one has tried to outlaw knives completely because they are recognized for what they are...a tool.

What I have taught my own children about guns and gun safety is that a gun is a tool, not a toy. A toy is for play time, enjoyment and enrichment.

A tool is a powerful and potentially dangerous thing that, if handled the wrong way can inflict damage, chaos and misery. Other common tools are a hammer, a saw, a knife, a screwdriver, a pan etc.

Thankfully, no one is trying to ban any of those outright.

Yes, historically, you're probably right about knives - I'm not a knife expert. I was talking more about modern times with the cooking comment, as my other examples are more modern items as well. I don't know the stats but I bet more knives are used for cooking than other purposes these days.

We can agree to disagree about a gun being a tool. A gun, to me, is purely a weapon with maybe the exception of flare guns, which would be a tool. Knives could be tools or weapons depending on usage.

It doesn't really matter what words are used. My point was more in response to statuses I see, like on Facebook, where people try to sarcastically ask if we should outlaw cars or airplanes too because they have also killed people in terrorist attacks. It's not the same thing.

I think it's all about taking reasonable precautions for our own and for other people's safety. Coming up with "reasonable" needs to rely more on statistics, less on anecdotes; more on logic, less on emotion. Good luck to us (sigh).

If you won't acknowledge that a gun is made for the purpose of shooting a projectile at lethal force...you will bring up ridiculous comparisons to knives, automobiles and golf clubs.

Do you think you are likely to be knifed, run over, or hit in the head with a golf club anytime soon? Are these the weapons used by the military or the police?

How many people (or 'targets') can you hit in one minute minute with a gun? With a knife? With a car? With a golf club? Guns are used to kill 88 people a day in the US. How many people are killed daily where knives, automobiles or golf clubs were the weapons used?

Guns are made to BE lethal weapons. I thought everybody knew that. Denial is evidently a bigger part of the problem than I thought.

mamapinky -- Finding the marble in the lamp was evidence that the child was in that bedroom without anyone seeing her go there. The point is that kids move fast. It's a mistake to think that no child would discover a loaded gun in a nightstand faster than an adult could intervene.

Mama pinky,. Sigh....if you read my post, I wasn't comparing a marble to a gun. The key word is responsibility. In my home, where my gun is stored, is (in my situation) is being responsible. I don't have a flock of people coming in and out of my house, but maybe you do so therefore it should be under lock and key. That also goes if children are around, in my case, there is none.

Our goal should be to work on gun laws so we don't have more tragedies like Las Vegas. Citizens do NOT need military style weapons or anything that would make them as such, silencers, or bullets that can pierce armor. And there is probably more that can be added to the list. THAT should be our focus.

Our goal should be to work on gun laws so we don't have more tragedies
like Las Vegas. Citizens do NOT need military style weapons or anything
that would make them as such, silencers, or bullets that can pierce
armor. And there is probably more that can be added to the list. THAT
should be our focus.

Bingo.

In 2013 yet another attempt to pass an national assault weapon ban, that may have prevented the weapons from being able to be purchased. Sixty Senators voted against the bill. At some level they are responsible for those killed and injured in Las Vegas.

I believe a vast majority of the US feels that no member of the public has any valid reason to own or use these weapons of war. Even among the membership of the NRA I'd conjecture that a many would support such a measure. However the most extreme, fervent, paranoiac gun nuts run the organization. They bluster and threaten, and the spineless cowards in Congress jump to do their bidding.

Several people here have said that keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally ill should be a priority. I'd agree only with the proviso that the need to possess and collect ever more powerful weapons, the fetishistic need to caress and carry one wherever you go, or the paranoiac belief that anything that happens is all part of a conspiracy by those who want to come and "take all your guns" is a form of mental illness, and should be reason enough to prevent that person from buying or owning guns.

It is not feasible to determine who will misuse a gun at point of sale. It's an expensive, time consuming exercise in futility.

It is feasible to meaningfully restrict public ownership of some guns and some ammunition. It is feasible to require training, testing and licensing of individuals and registration of guns. It is feasible to prohibit public ownership of military weapons.

How do YOU propose reducing the appalling number of gunshot victims in America?

How many members of the NRA would join other voters in urging *which* changes? How many are knowingly or unknowingly just shills for the gun makers?

This is pretty powerful.