No...my experiences are far from limited but I don't need to compare numbers with you. I'm comfortable with my assessment.

The one word that was missing from your statement...and so often is...that I took exception to is the word "opinion". By all means, opinions are always welcomed. It's bombastic statements such as you initially made... "crappy teachers and dysfunctional school systems." that get under my skin. You allow no room for recognition of those teachers and school systems that function on an above average scale. They do exist and they deserve equal recognition and credit. Not to be absorbed into your all assuming/inclusive and very critical statement.

Just be fair in your statements, Fudd. That's what I'm suggesting. The conversational thread will progress just as well. Maybe even better.

Hark! I do believe I hear the melodious notes of the imbibing ice clinking bird. I wonder what it looks like!

I agree, reading is foundational for writing.

One of the things I noticed with my children is that they were being asked to produce writing at a much younger age in English class than I was, which I think was a mistake. My children are perfectionists and they had a very hard time coping with the disparity between what they knew the written word to be and what they were capable of producing in first grade. Writing in English was an exercise in frustration for them until they reached high school. The bulk of my children's instruction was not in English, though (80-20 split, French-English,) so I have a second perspective on the matter. The French system does not introduce essay writing until middle school (maybe as early as fifth grade, not sure exactly anymore.) Interestingly, they took to writing better when it was emphasized later and came in conjunction with responding to literature, history, or art or politics. Of course in the French system they spent many years drilling in grammar, that starts as soon as they learn to read (first grade, not K.)

Elmer, you're right the courses at my son's school are right to try to engage students with catchy classes.

I was surprised to read in the article that many elementary school teachers are uncomfortable writing and thus are not confident teaching the subject. I wonder if we should not consider hiring teachers who majored in subjects outside of education, so math majors to teach math and english majors to teach english. Perhaps education could become a short graduate degree, like an MBA. There is such joy that comes from being taught by people who are experts in their subject and obviously love what they are teaching.

"I was surprised to read in the article that many elementary school teachers are uncomfortable writing and thus are not confident teaching the subject"

You better believe it and the problem (in many public schools) isn't limited to teaching writing. My family member who does substitute teaching about once a week, usually at the elementary level, invariably walks in to notes like these from the absent teacher:

"The class is behind in math. We're at the module on decimal fractions and I've been putting it off because it's an area I've always found confusing. I left it for you, knowing I would be out today. If it's confusing for you too, spend an extra hour on .... and I'll get another teacher to cover it for me next week", or

"Could you do me a favor, please? We're supposed to do a science segment on different kinds of clouds/or fish/or birds/or whatever/ and all the photos look the same to me. Can you go over it with them? Thanks."

and so on and so forth

Yes. Teachers whose own grade level competency is below that of the elementary students they're teaching. It tends to be better in middle and high school where more often the credentialed teachers have majors in the subjects they teach. And who knows, maybe it's required or sought after in filling those slots. But elementary teachers can be scary.

In California, middle and high school teachers need a specialized credential in their subject. They have to pick math, history, English, etc. Elementary just needs an overall credential, and I don't think it's too challenging to get.

If it were difficult and teachers had to prove higher competencies, we would have less teachers. And while that would certainly increase the quality, it would be a real problem to find enough to meet the needs of the children.

Teachers are not paid well, and unless someone has a passion to educate, bright and talented individuals can make much more in other careers. Not to mention the politics, red tape, common core and the host of other problems that frustrate my teacher friends.

It's a cycle. To better educate the kids, we need better teachers. To get better teachers, we need to make it a better career choice, with better pay and less restrictions. I'm speaking generally - there are many wonderful, dedicated teachers out there. I wish there were enough for every child.

Very interesting, thought provoking topic. Thanks Rita.

I was curious if there was a test that teachers need to pass, and there is one that is required before a teacher can earn a credential in California. I took a math practice exam, and it was questions such as:

1. Avg of 83, 76, 80, 71, 80, 78

2. Appropriate for the weight of a pencil: ounces, pounds, quarts, pints, tons

3. Rob uses 1 box of cat food every 5 days. Approximately how many boxes will
he use a month?

4. Tara can develop 2 rolls of film in 18 minutes. How long will it take to develop 8 rolls of film?

Teachers only need 123/240 points to pass, and they can take it as often as they want. I find it scary that this is the bar set to prove math proficiency.

Yes, good topic--and lots of interesting responses. I'll try to rein in my own and add just a couple of things.

As a writer, I fully appreciate a "gorgeous sentence." But while I'm glad to say I've written a few of my own, I'm also glad I can communicate clearly in writing in business and other contexts. I was taught to diagram sentences and all that, but I suspect my genetics had more of an effect on my ability to write. I think some people are natural writers and some are not, just as some people (like me) are natural spellers and some (like my Yale Ph.D. husband) are not.

However, even the "not" can be taught to write clearly. Does it start, I wonder, with speaking? It seems to me it must be difficult to write clearly if one doesn't speak clearly. If every spoken sentence begins with "So" and "like" precedes every verb, how will this translate to the page? I'm all in favor of encouraging creative writing, and certainly did so with my own children and my Girl Scout troop, but even in this age of texting, students will need the life skill of clear written communication.

Rita said: I wonder if we should not consider hiring teachers who majored in subjects outside of education, so math majors to teach math and english majors to teach english. Perhaps education could become a short graduate degree, like an MBA. There is such joy that comes from being taught by people who are experts in their subject and obviously love what they are teaching.

I couldn't agree more. I'm remembering a chemistry teacher one of my kids had in high school. If a student asked a question, the teacher would have to page through the book to find the answer. If it wasn't in the book, she didn't have a clue. I'm guessing she became a chemistry teacher because the school needed one. But what they got was a class monitor with a book.

When I was in college, a lot of the education majors sounded like they'd chosen the field to have summers off. It worked out well for them. I live in an economically depressed area, and by local standards teachers are paid well. By now those education majors are retired and collecting hefty pensions that come with benefits like health insurance. I can remember only one high school teacher who made an effort to get the students writing. Unfortunately, he awarded an A grade to any who could prove they killed a deer during hunting season.

"Does it start, I wonder, with speaking?"

I think this is very true for some. One of my kids had a case of permanent writer's block, he couldn't even get started when facing a writing assignment. But he was (and still is) very communicative and is very expressive and comfortable when speaking to others. I brought home a recording device and told him said - Think of how you would address the question (or matter) in an oral presentation, make the presentation, record it, and then type up what you say. With practice, he didn't need to actually record his thoughts, he could do it in his head, then type it. His first passes when transcribed always required heavy editing but it gave him something to work with.

For him, the speaking approach broke the logjam and he became comfortable writing. But that's not for everyone. As with everything else, not every individual learns the same way or masters a skill the same way. Great teachers present alternatives for students in the hope that one will make sense and stick.

The best English teacher my kids ever had was their History 12 teacher. He said you can't understand history unless you can read it, analyze it and express an opinion. He taught those kids how to do just that by reading for salient points, analyzing for cause and effect, but he also carried it one step further and taught them how to express an opinion through writing. History for him, wasn't memorizing dates and names, but rather looking at events and making it appear relevant to the kids and having them understand how the events came to occur and what happened after.. He also taught them how to write in-class essays, in my opinion one of the hardest things to do, and all his exams included an in-class essay. He taught them topic sentences, supportive arguments, and conclusions.This class set my kids up for success in their first year arts classes including English 100.

My kids would have taken history regardless but there were many parents who made their kids take this class because of what else the kids learned.

When I was in business school I was a marker for third year marketing papers. If you're in third year marketing it means that you're in fourth year university and majoring in marketing which in it's most simplistic form, is based on language and communication. It means you've graduated with English 12, and have completed first year arts or sciences which includes English 100. I had two students who couldn't write their way out of a paper bag. Their weekly assignments were incomprehensible and their mid-terms were atrocious, it was then that I took their papers to the prof and told him I wouldn't be marking their papers anymore because I would be failing them and that wasn't my responsibility. I still don't understand how they got that far in their schooling.

Teachers just seem to be responsible for so much more than just teaching. It seems that their job descriptions include being social workers, mediators, and moms. Yes, and moms. Did the kids come to school with warm and dry clothing and having had breakfast. It isn't a job that I could do.

ETA - I read the OP's link after writing my post (I know, I know...) but it looks like my kids History 12 teacher was on the right track in terms of teaching history and writing.

This subject is interesting to me. As some of you know I'm raising two young grands one who is going into the 4'th grade (Tim) is in gifted classes and Reading is a big part of his class day as is writing or vocalizing his thoughts and opinions of what he's read. Last month Tim was tested to determine his assignments this comming year (this is done in my school district with the gifted or advanced students) Tims reading and comp tested at an 11'th grade 5'th month.

Chip is moving into first grade and I expect regular classes to become boring very soon into the year.

Both of these boys read for recreation and have been encouraged to do so. When they talk to me about a book they are reading I stop whatever I'm doing and give my full attention..I ask questions, I show my interest.

IMO reading and writing starts as young children....and it starts in the home. parents must be involved...parents must make books accessable they must encourage reading, they must discuss with the child the book, ask questions, ask for opinions..

I don't think a lot of parents in my area get it, they don't seem to understand how important it is for children to read and talk about what they read. I've heard parents say things like** its the schools job this is why I pay taxes** I've wanted to scream..ITS YOUR JOB. And you have failed....how many kids reach the 4'th grade doesn't read unless forced to for a class, is now involved in sports, cheerleading, video games are now going to suddenly start reading for enjoyment..I'd bet the numbers are low.

Too many parents just don't understand the importance of teaching the love of reading. Elementary or Senior High levels if there is no interest in reading these kids are not going to comprehend what they read so there will be no writing and no opinions.

I have thought about this as my three sons were maturing. They have done well. Their mother is well-read and her job (prior to retirement) required her to speak to large groups. She did not do well with the speaking. She could write it out and have it make sense, but she just couldn't get over the oral part of the presentation. How about the reverse? Elmer Fudd's son got over his problem because there was a caring and sharing parent present to facilitate that.

Is it that the home environment could be partially responsible? Possibly, but not entirely. Could the learning environment at school be partially responsible? Possible, but not entirely. I don't believe that "fixing" the teaching methods nor making sure that parents care enough to push can be simple solutions for a complex issue.

When I was in high school (Chicago suburbs in the early 1960s) I was reluctantly enrolled in Latin for two years. Ouch! German and Spanish were also offered, but my parents were traditionalists. Did that have an influence on my writing style? Probably.

I was on a college-prep curriculum there and that included Public Speaking in the junior year. For senior year, I took College Prep (CP) English and our teacher was adamant that we learn to express ourselves effectively with our writing. She assigned us a topic for a term paper. We had to research properly (no computers in those days) and it had to be 20 typed pages. I worked and worked on my paper: "The French Influence on the Early English Language". I learned a lot from her, I hated it at the time, but whatever I have published since then goes back to my CP English during my senior year in high school.

When to start with students on their writing skills? One has to trust the education system and hope that home-based learning can strengthen the overall program.

I went to public schools in Topeka KS - graduated from HS in 1961. I was very lucky as I got the last of those wonderful, highly educated women as teachers - this was in the day when women had very few career opportunities. Today, virtually all my women teachers would not have been in the classroom! But it was a great benefit to me that they were!

We had a lengthy required research paper similar to Jim's in 11th grade. I learned SO much writing that paper and I'm not just talking about the subject. It was the PROCESS that has served me well over the past 57 years! The other class that has served me well was a required class in public speaking. What a gift that class was! If one can be articulate verbally, there is a good chance it will transition to paper as well.

My SIL is on the parent's board for the magnet school his sons attend. I am constantly trying to convince him to work toward a 1 semester course in public speaking in this magnet. A science fair project is required, and when I've seen videos of the students talking to the judges, I can see where a public speaking course would be so very beneficial.

Remember, today's teachers have very large classes and must teach at least 5-6 preps each day. In a class of 35-38, how can they possibly assign lengthy written assignments? Even if their job dedication was so extreme that they had no life outside the classroom, that's just more than one human can possibly read and constructively correct. When I was in HS, I think my 11th grade English teacher only taught one class to 11th graders, so he could assign a lengthy research paper. Most schools today won't do scheduling like that, and teachers prefer to teach the same class multiple times daily - less prep work for them.

I appreciate everyone taking the time to make such thoughtful comments. I can't stay and discuss right now. I'll be back tonight though.

Loved this discussion. Very collegial. This is my professional field and it was refreshing to hear a variety of viewpoints that come from non academic contexts.

My children are long out of the house and I don't remember much about their writing experiences. None of my grandchildren are nearby so no clue there either. My current observation that I think would directly affect writing is either the failure to teach proper grammar or the failure to reduce grades if assignments are not written correctly. I remember having to diagram sentences on a daily basis when I was in school and I credit that for being able to understand the difference between "Me and Susie went to the park" and, of course, "Susie and I went to the park". We were taught to use each noun separately to determine the correct combination. Another new trend I'm hearing often is "(Blank) and I's relationship"! I'm wondering if students are allowed to use bad grammar in the classroom and in their writing because the younger teachers don't know the difference themselves, or if it's just outside of class that incorrect grammar is being used. Either way, I hear examples daily that make me cringe.

I think one big problem is that kids are texting and typing far more than past generations. I bet 90% of what teenagers write is to friends or social media and that's a lot of time to develop bad habits and poor speech patterns. I am guilty of becoming lazy in my written correspondence and my writing skills suffer for it.

Oh my! This topic hits home. I was a high school English teacher in the 1960s. I enjoyed teaching grammar and writing. In my first school district, the courses had been divided into semesters; one semester would be composition, and the other would be literature at each grade level. As is often the case, the principal had been a PE major, and he evaluated my teaching. I taught all sophomore composition that year. My textbook was the trusty Warriner's that I had used as a student myself. I was "dinged" for teaching adverbs in my composition class, and there was no convincing Mr. Brilliant that adverbs belong in the composition semester. Over the years and many moves around the country, I have observed the reduction of grammar instruction because the powers that be determined that students should have learned all the grammar they needed in elementary and middle school. I also remember being one of the few teachers who regularly assigned student writing. That meant that I stayed up well past a normal bedtime to grade them all. One teacher who was new to one school the same year I started there was weak in her understanding of grammar and punctuation. I would teach her so that she could perform in her classroom. As a parent, I noticed that my children did not have as thorough a grounding in grammar as I had had, and even learning a foreign language was hampered because both English and foreign language teachers did not teach parts of a sentence. I had been fortunate to have a wonderful high school teacher myself, who served as my model for teaching English. Without her, I would not have had the background I needed. Many high school teachers enter college and study their teaching subject at a level above that which they will teach some day. For example, the last time a math teacher studies Algebra I or Plane Geometry is during his or her freshman and sophomore years in high school. Science teachers find themselves in similar situations.

I am grateful to hear so many different perspectives on this subject! From professional educators with a long memory to grandparents bringing up young children today and everything in the middle, this group understands many different facets involved in the challenge of teaching young people to write well.

I have a great deal of hope for the future of writing education because of the internet. Look at us here. If we were not relatively confident writers, we would not choose to spend time communicating to strangers with nothing but words in a box outside of any personal context.

To use the internet to its best advantage, is to be able to tell a story. While the internet privileges visual stories, they are stories non-the-less and need to be communicated through the same elements. There must be a thesis and support, be logic and follow through, or the story falls apart and the audience lost.

Clearly all the parents here have made writing education a priority in their children's lives and the teachers here are talking about their work in their off hours, so they care deeply as well. There are weak links in the chain, though; I have no clue how to strengthen them.

Rita I can not write to save my behind, but I'm fair at speaking. In fact I was a main speaker at Hershey Medical Center several years ago. The topic was Vascular malformations/anomalies, the audience was Pediatricians, Medical Genetics, Plastics, Dermatology, ect ect.

Its amazing how many doctors do not know that vascular malformations are the #1 birth defect in the US.

LOL.... they clapped ..I still chuckle at them clapping after my little talk. Haha.

"I have a great deal of hope for the future of writing education because of the internet."

Eh, I don't share this view. The internet is nothing more than a means of communication and transport of information. Sure, library and other educational material (even that which is school-, class-, and even student-specific) can be accessed from anywhere at any time. But is anything gained by this? I'm not sure. Once at hand, reading the relevant materials and then processing or documenting personal thoughts or doing a derivative assignment as required or desired are still mental exercises in the old fashioned way. Once the needed material is at hand, the person on the right doing it with books and a pad of paper and the one on the left reading a screen and typing, both are having the same learning experience.

Mama, when you say you cannot write to save your behind, nothing could be further from the truth. I read your writing almost every day, and you write very well. Your thoughts are always well organized and beautifully articulated. While we have never spoken, I hear your writerly voice loud and clear in my head when I read your messages.

Sometimes students get discouraged in English class, thinking that mastering the tricky bits of grammar are the same thing as being able to write, and while I think having a full command of grammar makes one a stronger and more powerful writer, it is the ability to express one's thoughts clearly and persuasively that matter most. Of course if you have no grasp of grammar you would be unable to do those things- you do have a strong grasp of grammar- you probably think you don't.

Elmer, yes writing on the internet and writing on a legal pad are functionally equivalent. However, since the internet invites more participation from users, more people will become proficient writers in order to amplify their presence online. I was not suggesting that the medium affected the writing, but rather it encouraged more of it.

For me, kids and young adults (or even older adults) who have a "presence online" may need to find or be given more important things to do in their lives so that their time is better spent.

I'm guilty of my own accusation but as retiree, I feel I've earned the right to do less and be less productive than I was during my working years. For others, we all realize that the internet and PCs can be time-suckers that, like other recognized addictions, can become obstacles that prevent better use of time in the lives of those who may not have the extra time to waste.

Back to the original topic, it was an interesting article (thanks) and discussion and hopefully, as with other things, drawing attention to issues stimulates broader conversations and more attention.

It doesn't take a large amount of time to create a presence online.

I have no interest in arguing about what constitutes a healthy balance of life online and off. That is a completely different topic.

What I can attest to as a parent is that the ability to use digital tools in order to communicate is a non-negotiable skill in school today. My children are required to be able to put together short films to present their work in various classes- making a short film is an exercise in writing and is one of the internet's preferred forms of media. In addition my children have been asked to make websites and wikis as part of class work. They have been assigned the making of Kahn Academy-type teaching videos for math classes.

My children have never taken a class in their regular school covering any of these tools. These assignments were part of classes in history or literature or statistics once. Presenting information on the internet in these ways requires the ability to write well.

As an aside, all my children's advanced classes have FB pages where students communicate about the class, forming their work groups and coordinating presentations and out of class activities.

I agree that there needs to be a balance of online and off, but today's work is online. My eldest (18 yo) has been offered two jobs (math related) based on his online presence. He was 15 the first time an employer came looking for him via a YouTube he made. Even though the video was explaining a mathematical concept, he spent a great deal of time writing the script and deciding what images reinforced his points best and weaving the whole tapestry together. He learned quickly that all the videos he watches online are highly produced affairs.

Furthermore, keeping a blog is a part of the job description for people who wish to be thought leaders in their fields. These blogs are disseminated via LinkedIn in some cases and through "word-of-mouth" in others. Look at Fred Wilson's blog, AVC.com. He was trained as a naval architect at MIT, became a venture capitalist, and still communicates with the world about a wide range of subjects from food and music to investments, leadership and Bitcoin all through his very popular blog. which features lively discussions with others in his industry and out of it.

There was a time when an engineer turned financier would not have wanted or needed to communicate that way. That time is not now. The internet allows for you to exchange ideas with a wider group of people than would ever be possible without it. You can help others and others can help you thanks to online presence. And all of this is fueled by the power of the written word (after the engineers do their magic, of course :-)

Errata: Wilson was a mechanical engineering major whose first job was in a naval architecture firm.

Rita, I'm sorry I went off topic.

No, Mama, you didn't go off topic. You responded to something that was said. And you used a very nice writing tool- you showed, you didn't tell. Well done. This is a conversation after all, not five paragraph essay :-)

A dear friend's son majored in engineering. He was hired the minute he graduated and became a VP in his company within a few years. What makes him most valuable to his bosses? They say it is his ability to communicate, in person and in writing. Engineers? Pfft! They have plenty of other engineers. He's their Mr. Fix-it. He could have afforded to retire at forty, supporting a wife and three children -- but he hasn't.

"I have no interest in arguing about what constitutes a healthy balance of life online and off. That is a completely different topic."

Agree. I mentioned it only to suggest that too many kids (and some adults) are on the "too much ill-spent time" side of the balance. Video games - same story. Yeah, and what any one individual does or doesn't do with their time is too fine a detail to consider relative to the broader issue, which IS an issue for many.

Making Khan Academy-type videos might be seen as cool by the kids but it would seem like a poor usage of time to me, especially in heavy academic subjects. I'm not sure what useful skills are gained from it.

As far as "online presence" is concerned, my kids were told (by advisers at their colleges) that their sparse "social media" accounts needed to be blocked from third party view when applying to grad and professional schools. If these were important to have, the advice might be expected to be otherwise. At the undergrad level, I've read about acceptances being withdrawn and rescinded by particularly select colleges (Harvard was one) based on what they saw on admittees' public social media accounts. Perhaps you've seen those stories too?

I also have a view of "thought leadership" pieces and blogs, something my firm spent resources on. It's defensive, not offensive, done to keep pace with competitors doing the same thing. Few people, and certainly fewer that matter, pay much attention to them. Most highly visible, respected and engaged individuals, including VCs, don't have the time or interest to do so and the personal ones are rare. Those that do have them have content produced by PR or marketing staffs. Relationships and contacts that matter are interpersonal and from networks, not websites. Even (and perhaps especially) here in Silicon Valley.

At the risk of annoying everyone here by arguing with you Elmer, here we go.

1) The children certainly did not enjoy making Khan style videos right before taking AP Calc test in differential equations, but it did serve as an incredibly effective form of review. In medical school they say, see one, do one, teach one. Teaching is a great means of showing and solidifying mastery. They could have accomplished the meat of the task- teaching one another- sitting in a classroom- but since it was 2016- they worked in groups and produced a video series that served as their review and an intro/additional help for students taking the class the following year.

2) The college admissions office encouraged my son personally to share some of his favorite work that he had produced- this tied into one of his essays and probably to a rec from a professor at the school itself- but still it remains when my son gained admission he was told directly that his willingness to engage in hard work and share it with the world was a key driver of his success. My son applied for early action, so maybe the admit folks had more time on their hands to dig deeper- IDK- but the result speaks for itself.

I think the key issue here is what kind of social media are we talking about. Were your children told to block IG accounts and FB pages with vacation snaps and party pics, or were your children told their LinkedIn influencer blogs should be hidden because their work was not of interest to the admissions committees?

Of course my son's IG account is of no interest to schools and employers. But YouTubes and essays about his work in math and econ are of relevance. And while I admit, my son is in a fortunate position, I think the process by which people put themselves out there into the arena, as Teddy Roosevelt called it, is tied to the internet. The internet is not only cat videos and jokes that get Harvard admits rescinded. The internet allows us to communicate what we know, learn more and expand our reach.

While many silly things are done online, many fruitful ones are too. A smart child in rural America now has more of an opportunity to discuss her interests and gain knowledge with people farther away than she could reach yesterday. But the child will have to know how to write effectively in order to access the resources available online.

3) That your firm produced a blog for the purposes of PR is a given. Lots of firms do so.

Many other professionals, VCs, CEOs, CTOs, professors, produce blogs and podcasts for other purposes (consider Bob Sutton, Ben Horowitz, Fred Wilson, at the upper end of the spectrum). I do not need to guess why they post. They post because they want to help shape a conversation. Sometimes that work sells their product. Sometimes that work sells them. Sometimes that work is purely academic. Sometime the answer is all of the above.

I doubt I have convinced you that the internet is not just a frivolous place where you turn for amusement or PR hacks flog their wares. I responded to your comments because I live in the heart of the beast and I wanted to provide everyone else on this thread a different perspective of how people can and do use the internet and why I am convinced it can expand the number of people who write well because that is what the medium necessitates.

Naturally, I am aware that the vast majority of what is produced online is not scholarly. My argument is that to use the internet to its best advantage requires the capacity to write effectively. That requirement will build better writers for the subset of people who want to use the medium for growth.

Teacher of high school Latin and English here - heading into year number 33. It's not sexy or cutting edge - grammar. Pronoun antecedents, parallel structure, coordinating conjunctions.

When each of mine were in "prepare for AP tests" mode, classroom time was spent with teachers reviewing essentials but there were several weeks of NO homework assignments to give the kids time for their own review. I'm surprised to hear that an assignment of any kind, even of a review nature, was thought to be appropriate.

I'm not sure what role requiring that anything outside of the normal application material could serve, especially for those schools that receive far more applications than do they have spots to accept. Admissions screening becomes a "wade through the bulk" task for the people with those jobs. Interesting to hear of your own experience with this.

Your see one, do one, teach one theme may apply in the latter clinical years of medical school but the first two years (which culminate with taking the first step of national boards) are mostly classroom time in which a torrent of material must be digested and remembered daily. This from one of my kids who went through it. And he credited his solo studying for AP tests and the MCAT as excellent preparation to do well on the first step of the USMLE, a test involving a significantly more vast body of knowledge than any of the others he'd taken before.

I'm okay with your views, different opinions make for interesting conversations. It's clear our different views come from different experiences and that's neither good nor bad.

PS - in my experience, blogs and social media don't sell anything on a B2B basis. Nada. Decision makers don't have time to consider them and important supplier and buying decisions are always very nuanced and, again, based on relationships, history and sales pitches (which can be very involved and detailed, depending on what's involved).

Elmer, the AP class review had begun in March. Most of the students, including mine got 5s. The teacher was ancient. I think he knew what he was doing.

The admissions office contacted my son in November, and in no way "required" he produce the materials. He and one of his professors had mentioned the work he had done in the application (essay for son/rec. for prof.) The admissions officers at my son's school were extremely accessible to him. I know that is unusual. But my son had an unusual relationship with his first choice school anyway. I suspect the decision to admit him had been already made by the time the email came asking to see the work.

Meg, 33 years of teaching Latin! That is fantastic. What stamina! Your students are very fortunate. Experienced teachers who love their subjects are the best- and no way is there a Latin teacher who does not love her subject.

Mr. Fudd, what worked in your field before you retired, may not be the way things are done anymore, or the norm in other industries. Blogs and social media are not the only use for videos in regards to B2B sales. One of our children got hired due to excellent writing skills. But the addition of video and photography shooting and editing experience, for catalogs, trade shows and commercial buyer presentations, were bonus skills the company took advantage of, and valued.

Congrats to you and yours. Not to pop the balloon of that achievement but sometimes what happens is when the kid gets to college, they may learn that if the AP classes taken are required for the college major, they get graduation units for a 4 or 5 but need to retake the class. That happened to all of mine.

Two of mine did early binding decision (successfully) and all had in-person interviews with a locally resident alum as part of the process. No supplemental material was ever requested and none were legacy applicants.

gyr, all of my kids are in fields that are very different from my own and I'm relating their experiences too. Congrats to your kid, I'd be willing to guess that the job you're describing involved a creative role in an artistic sense, or sales/marketing, or maybe the two together.

As someone still in "the trenches" and there may be a few more of you, this is what it takes for me as a 2/5 Freshman high school English teacher when dealing with writing. I have approximately 40 students. Rough drafts are optional, but I would say that for every paper I assign, I get about 30. Correcting those takes approximately 10 minutes each. Then 40 students hand in papers. 40 times 10 minutes. Then, because many students simply look at the grade and toss the paper, I require revisions. Changes may be grammar, spelling, format, adding information. Each of those takes more like 5 minutes to correct. 40 times 5 minutes. I'm very conscious in grading that I must be able to defend that grade, so I write a lot of notes on student papers.

So, that's in addition to prepping for 5 classes and grading very frequent assessments for my Latin students. I've only got another 11 years - wonder if I'll make it.

"The internet allows us to communicate what we know, learn more and expand our reach."

Nicely put, Rita. I agree.

Meg, That is a prodigious amount of reading and correcting you have to do. I am always humbled by teachers who do their jobs with such diligence and care. I was at my wit's end when my sons were poor writers. I had no idea where to begin giving them feedback, short of "Start this over immediately! You have to be kidding me; you could not seriously consider this acceptable?" To this day I sigh with relief when I read their work and it passes muster. I am infinitely grateful to the teachers who helped them write well.

gyr_falcon, in case you are interested, and this is really OT, but since you expressed some interest in current thinking on social media in marketing: You might want to read about Clara Shih. She was appointed to Starbucks's Board of Directors in 2011 when she was 29 years old, wrote a book on the subject of social media and marketing and launched a division at Salesforce.com- all before she was 30. The Facebook Era: Tapping Online Social Networks to Market, Sell and Innovate is used by the Harvard Business School and the Stanford School of Engineering's management department. She just came out with a second book, The Social Business Imperative: Adapting Your Business Model to the Always Connected Customer.

Andi, thank you for the kind words.

Elmer, I was not clear enough. My son's "unusual relationship" with his first choice school was due to the fact that we was invited to attend engineering courses there since he was 12 years old, during the regular school year with the regular students. He did work that was visible in the department. He was very fortunate to be mentored by two excellent professors.

As for retaking AP courses- we'll see, I don't care one way or another. No balloon of achievement popped. APs are not on top of the list of what he has done so far.

Meg, I know how time-consuming that can be. I taught college freshman writing as part of a 'focus' curriculum (I was dealing with Classical Athens). There was a very specific protocol--grading guidelines where each aspect of writing skills in the paper received a number grade, then added up for a letter grade. Creativity or originality was not one of them, which bothered me. I was writing my dissertation before and during the first classes I taught and wrote so much better afterwards. Questions that I learned were important:

Why should anyone want to read this?

Who is my audience?

Is it possible to misinterpret this?

What does the reader expect or want to know next?

I learned also that revisions are almost always necessary, at least one and up to four.

I would have the students read and comment on one anothers' papers sometimes. And I wrote many comments. Bad grammar as well as poorly thought out ideas often prompted me to write "Do you mean [this] or [that]? When I got really tired I would sometimes write "Please clarify" instead, knowing it was sort of a cop-out.

I don't miss it at all! Hang in there Meg. Have the students do some of your work and help one another?

Peer editing is a wonderful idea if the kids actually had the skills to spot all the errors. Even with a checklist of things to look for, the average 14 year old doesn't have much to offer.

I will be teaching four sections of freshman composition starting August 29. I am going to work on my syllabus and class website starting tomorrow. The teaching part is actually easy, as I don't lecture that much, and I encourage in-class group work, writing, and even reading. it's the grading! Four sections, about 90 students. I use a number system for grammar (sections in the grammar book), and I limit myself to comment related to the criteria of that assignment, specified in the syllabus. I look at partial rough drafts (sometimes thesis statements only) in required conferences (I try and see every student at least twice, conference days are exhausting), supervise peer edits, grade final drafts, and if the revision is decent, the grade goes up. I don't spend more than 15 minutes on a paper. If I have to spend that much time, the student needs help to do it over!

As with everything else, not every individual learns the same way or masters a skill the same way. Great teachers present alternatives for students in the hope that one will make sense and stick.

Absolutely. My son also had a difficult time in school because of teachers who refused to be flexible to address his needs. He was in middle school when home PCs were not prevalent. That poor kids could simply not put his thoughts down in writing. We know now that has dysgraphia. I went and spoke to his teachers asking that he be allowed to use his computer for assignments. His Science grade shot up to straight A's. His science teacher suggested oral presentations. On the other hand he had an ass for a Social Studies teacher who continued to mark correctly answered answers wrong because the handwriting didn't meet his criteria. DS's problems started with ear and speech problems, leading to spelling problems in elementary school. It took a second grade teacher to recognize the issue. He said DS spelled just fine if you took how he heard and spoke the words into consideration. Previously they wanted to hold him back. By the fifth grade he was put in a special "focus" reading group. Stuff like you would see in kindergarten. This despite the fact he had been reading sci-fi novels at home since 2nd grade and his most requested gift every year was the world almanac. After a huge war with the district I had him moved to a different school. He was immediately place in the high reading group at that school His new teacher wanted to see how he did by starting him at the top, not the bottom. He did just fine. From D and F grades from the previous school to A and B grades with an occasional C. Then in middle school the struggle began again with the writing. By high school he detested school. He purposefully failed his classes so he would have to go to night school. The tech magnet he looked forward was horrendous for him. He knew far more than the teachers who were supposed to be instructing him. One teacher would frequently call DS at home for tech support for the teacher's home computer. Same teacher almost failed DS for not completing lab work. LOL

Those were extremely rough years for us. We couldn't afford private school and homeschooling hadn't become secular yet. I became "that mom" who actually blackmailed the district into moving my kid out of the horrid 5th grade he was in.

Basically DS turned out to be a kid with a "genius" (we hate that word) IQ, who has a photographic memory of the written word. Unfortunately he fell through the cracks of the public school system. Got passed over for gifted programs in the name of diversity, never had his achievements recognized. He was too "different".

Meg, what a great effort you put into teaching your students. I too required my students to make corrections to their papers. It took a lot of time, grading, and bookkeeping to teach that way, but I hoped the students would learn better writing skills for all our efforts.

Time for individual feedback is so important and is a resource teachers generally lack. Up-thread, Elmer mentioned mentoring his employees. My best teacher was my old boss Charlie. My grammar and spelling were always better than his, and he never fussed about typos, but he sure pushed me to clarify my writing! How many times did he call "Oh Nickel, come here" and he'd have a memo that I'd drafted on his desk. He say (with a smile, he was a nice guy), "Now what was the purpose of this?" Then he'd read aloud a bit of my draft, and say "Tell me what you meant by that". Then, so often, "I understand what you're saying, but that's not what you wrote. Try again". Repeat, repeat, until he finally says "Good job!"

My school teachers never gave me that kind of face-to-face, meaningful interaction. Can you imagine how much time that would take? I think kids that have parents or elders willing and able to provide appropriate feedback are so lucky.

Nickel I think you said a lot....**I think kids that have parents willing and able to provide appropriate feedback**

This is a huge problem in my area at least. Parents are either busy (understandable) or just don't give a hoot. But either way when you have kids its the biggest commitment you will ever make, its also an investment. That means no matter how busy or how demanding a job you have you must invest your time in your children and their education. The teachers can not do it all. We have a parent/teacher workshop at the elementary school only a handful of parents ever attend. If they can't be involved at this level what's to happen in the high school level.

Meg, I would never presume to tell you what to do with your class. My only reason for mentioning this possibility is that I desperate not to see a teacher like you burn out an quit one single day before you retire, so please forgive me if this idea is foolish. What if you sat down in front of a video camera/iPhone and recorded yourself going step-by-step through the grading of several papers, breaking everything down for your students, so they could refer to your video in the self or peer editing process? Might that save you some time in the end? I remember being that age and I was pretty clueless despite being in honors English, so I realize it's a long shot. The one thing that always helped me edit my work was my mother having me read my essays out loud to her. My errors began to jump out at me then.

Scott, that is an awful lot of work indeed. My frosh college rhetoric professor had a huge impact on me.

Watchmelol, I am horrified reading of your poor son's odyssey. I understand exactly how such a terrible confluence of events can befall a student who is intellectually advanced. Gifted education is a passion of mine. One of the biggest challenges of educating gifted children is that their development is asynchronous. I hope your son has healed from those terrible experiences and found places where he use his abilities.

Nickel, how lovely that your boss was able to help you in such a nice way. If I had been your boss at the time, I would not have been any use to you. I can write, but I cannot teach.

Mamapinky, I agree with you that parents have to accept responsibility for being their children's first and most important teachers. But truly I feel for people who have to work very hard, at difficult, insecure jobs and still have financial difficulties. Add to the mix that these parents may not be comfortable in a school environment, so that makes interacting with teachers and administrators even more fraught, driving many to avoid the situation even more. I don't excuse the behavior. I don't think people should have children before they are ready to be parents, but here we are, and as always, it's the children who suffer.

To all the great teachers here, your students usually figure out how important you were to their development when they leave your class and can flex the new muscles you gave them. I am sorry the job can be thankless in the moment.

PS The discussion about the importance of parents in helping out with schoolwork reminded me of this piece from the Atlantic a few years ago discussing the vocabulary deficit of some children entering K. If you consider the importance of being able to speak articulately along the spectrum of being able to produce solid writing, then this article reminds us of how many obstacles some children can face when they enter K, knowing many fewer words than children from financially better off families.

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/10/american-kids-are-starving-for-words/381552/

Rita, My son turned out just fine despite the hurdles. He had a lot of good mentors outside of the school system. A group of engineer hobbyists and such took him under their wing when he was around 15. He was involved in the development of the first autonomous robot for Robot Wars years before RWs became a high school science thing. He got involved with a lot of techies and the so called "hacker" community. Most of his friends outside of school were years older than him. He started attending computer conferences by the time he was 16. He got involved in stage lighting and technical support as a teen. Girls discovered him and he became quite the popular fellow by the time he was 17. A few of his older sister's guy friends actually told me once they wanted to spend more time with him to see if some of his charisma would rub off on them. As his mother it was a bit scary to see her "little boy" walk into a party with 3 or four young, beautiful women at once. Yes. Multiple women and their parents actually liked him. LOL His different made him popular as he got older.

Today he is happily married to a lovely woman and he has a rich, full life. The geeky, young, fat kid at school grew into a handsome man that people are proud to call friend. He is a director of cyber security today.

What a great Idea, Rita! I would not have thought of that and it's so easy to make and post a video now. We have an online learning management system so it would be really easy for students to access the video if they were motivated to.

Have to agree with previous posters about the importance of family. I grew up with my grandmother living with us and she taught me to read before I entered first grade. Have to admit I got into some trouble in primary grades being so bored with "Dick and Jane." I had a great vocabulary from all the one on one attention from an adult. And what you said about reading a paper out loud to someone really makes a difference. My mother would make me do that when I was in high school.

And thank you, posters, for all your encouraging and supportive words. Sometimes it's hard to see what society thinks of teachers.

Watchmelol, I am so happy your son emerged unscathed from those terrible experiences. I had some terrifying moments myself with my eldest and understand exactly what was at stake for you.

Meg, I am tickled my idea might be helpful.