Hi Sammy, we do have photos taken showing the Typar building wrap, etc. However, this window was added after the pictures were taken. Originally, we were only going to have one kitchen window. However, we decided to add a second one. So, I doubt we have anything showing the pre sided construction around this particular window.

Carol

Tomorrow, we will remove the grey exterior window trim. If the problem is not immediately obvious, we will proceed this week to remove the window and start over. So, when we remove the window, will the jam extension get ruined? Anyway to save that? Any tips for safely removing the window with minimal damage?

Carol

Vertical siding really requires the proper flashing details here (i.e. drip cap, nailing flange, proper tie in to the WRB, flashing tape, etc.).

Thanks, WOW for your information. What is WRB?

Do you think the plan to first remove the grey outdoor window trim/casement to see if we can get a handle on what was done is a good idea? Or should we just make plans to remove the whole window and start over with the install?

Carol

Wrb is the Tyvek , water barrier.

i think you're going to have to pull the window since the sill pan is not there or functioning properly.

WRB stands for Weather Resistant Barrier. And WoW is correct about how no detail can be overlooked when it comes to vertical siding, more so than with other types of cladding, at least that's been my experience.

Thank you todd and Sammy. We will begin to pull the window. Any advice on how to do that to not damage the jam extension?

Carol

DH wanted me to point out that close to the middle of the window is where our old house meets with the new addition. In addition to some suspect window install issues, do any of you suspect that some of the water entry is caused by the framing of old house to new?

Carol

If not flashed properly anythign is possible as water will definitely seek its own path. Unfortunately leaks can be 10-15 feet away from where they appear as the water can run down walls, rafters, etc. But without head flashing (drip cap), and the lack of sill pitch I think you are definitely in the right area to find your issue.

Thanks, Millworkman for your advice.

All: To address the sill water proofing do you recommend something like the Jamsill Guard linked below? The rough opening did not factor in the sill guard, will that mean we can't use it? Or is it better to use Typar window flashing flexible tape on the sill to protect from water (as per second link)?

http://jamsill.com/

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Typar-4-in-x-75-ft-Self-Adhering-Window-Flashing-Roll-ATFLH-001/205056017

If the jambs are attached to the window they should come out withe the window.

if they nailed through the jambs cut them loose from the framing with a reciprocating saw or a oscillating tool with a carbide blade.

You may have to remove the vertical siding above the window if they did flash or tie in the flashing properly.

Thanks todd. Do you prefer a Jamsill or the typar window flashing to address the waterproofing of the sill?

Carol

Most installers make their own pans in these cases. Jamsill is fine if your installer doesn't make his own.

The DuPont sill flashing is nice stuff, it is flexible for the corners. It is expensive to buy a roll, some places will sell it buy the foot. I like a piece tapered siding to go underneath or you can adjust the framing. So it is tilted at least 5 degrees. Some framers will do this automatically. The tapered siding would go under the flashing.you can foot DuPont.com and they will have videos on this .

Thank you everyone for your helpful info. We will see about sloping down the sill by 5 degrees or so. Jamsill does not sell to Canda. So we will have to make our own sill pan. I can get Typar flashing flex, but it is costly and comes in way more than I need. I can use their flashing AT and it is less pricely, but I don't think it is as flexible for around the corners of the sill. Our building paper is Typar, so it might be better to stick to Typar.

As per DuPont, what is available is the flashing tape as per this link. It seems to come in shorter lengths (33 feet), so that is a plus. It does not seem to be flexible, so we would have to cut the corners of the sill.

http://www.dupont.com/content/dam/dupont/products-and-services/construction-materials/building-envelope-systems/documents/K-29387_DuPont_Flashing_Tape_Product_Data_Sheet.pdf

To buy a flex kind of flashing tape seems very expensive for one window. I can get now flex flashing tape by Typar such as what I have linked. If I take care of sloping the sill 5 degrees, can I cover it with the non flex flashing tape?

https://www.homehardware.ca/en/rec/index.htm/Building-Supplies/Building-Materials/Insulation-Acc/Air-Barrier-Acc/Air-Barrier-Acc/4-X-75-AT-Flashing/_/N-2pqfZ67l/Ne-67n/Ntk-All_EN/R-I2648236?Ntt=Typar

I am finding it difficult to find anyone that sells the Dupont flashing tape.

99.9% likely that the problem is the lack of head flashing/drip cap installed and integrated properly with the wrb. There are various factors that can address why other windows without the drip cap aren't leaking, but ultimately the drip cap properly installed is the silver bullet here. That is what will redirect any moisture that is getting behind the siding and trim out of the opening as opposed to into it. The sill pan, beveled/sloped sill etc are good practice, but would not prevent the leak. They simply mitigate damage if a leak occurs by redirecting at the bottom of the RO instead of above it. If you are ripping the entire window out and going all-in on this, I would recommend having that done, but if the window is fully square and otherwise installed well, those extra steps may not be necessary to simply address the leak and get that window opening functionally installed to basic industry standards. To say that the window absolutely has to come out without physically inspected is rather presumptuous IMO.

My personal advice would be to get a couple of professionals out to look and things in detail and make recommendations accordingly.

At this point I think it would not Make sense to redo the sill. Water is eventually going get by something and it would give a good idea on what they did on the other Windows.

Dupnt makes a flexible sill membrane as well. If you use typar on the sill make sure to wrap the corners wih some small pieces of flashing tape since this is where it will leak.

Thank you HomeSealed and toddinmn. Just got back from buying the Typar flashing tape, drip cap and a piece of bevelled wood for the sill. All can be returned if they are not needed. How do most of you construct the sill pan? It was hard to find a piece of bevelled lumber and the one I found is a bit thick.

We will take the grey exterior trim off and try it again with the hose with the head flashing/drip cap installed. If that does not fix the problem, I see no choice but to take the window out. It will be DIY by DH and son. Budget for experts is very tight and the last expert we paid for did not do it right anyway.

Carol

Typically in a renovation type of application a piece of cedar lap siding works well. More than likely the window would have to be pulled to make that happen, as its rare for carpenters to install them shimmed up that high.

Regarding the drip cap, if done properly, there is very little opportunity for it NOT to fix your issue. Keep in mind when water testing that blasting a window directly can result in water infiltration regardless of the window or install quality, but doing some spraying above and around simulating rainfall should not result in issues.

Thanks, HomeSealed. It would be great if the drip cap fixes the problem -- thanks for your optimism. Today, I had a hard time finding cedar lap siding. I tried many different lumber stores with no luck. I did find a bevelled piece of pine siding, but it is a bit thicker (3/4 " vs 1/2") than we wanted. Where do you guys find bevelled cedar siding?

Anyway, we will hope that the drip cap fixes the issue. BTW, the window leaks with a driving rain as well as with the hose. We will be carefully to simulate a strong rain vs a strong jet of hose water. Good point.

Carol

My son took the top piece of grey exterior trim off. The window does not appear to be flashed at all correctly. All I can see is Typar (Tyvek) building paper with some Tuck Tape. No flashing tape at all. Moreover, there is extra bare lumber that may have been placed there to keep the wall plane the same between old house wall and new house wall. The new part of the house (where the leaking window is) has 2 x 6 walls and the old (to the left from outside) has 2 x 4 walls. The 2 x 4 have foam insulation on the outside. If memory serves us correctly, he had to do some re-working to get the plane of the wall the same.

So what do I do to fix it now? I am guessing Typar building wrap needs to go on the extra wood and then the Typar flashing tape? I think the window needs to come out so we can assess the sill as well. All agreed that the window should come out and we start again?How do I flash on these extra lengths of bare wood?

Carol

looks like you don't need to spray it with water! The Windows did not have nail fins or they cut them off , I should have caught that be the reveal .I'd remove the siding above the window and the rest of the casings. Caulk the joint between the window and framing except at the bottom. Install flashing tape on the sides 1st(the sill pan would be 1st if decide to remove the window, as you know I like this idea) I'd run the flashing tape to the paint line on the window and onto the rough framing. Pull the weather barrier backroad up at the head and tape the head overlapping the tape on the sides and run you weather barrier over the flashing tape and run another flashing tape over that.install casing then drip cap at head. Run another flashing tape over the drip cap part the runs up the wall, then water test. Use a good flashing tape, the cheap stuff doesn't always stick the best, roll of you can.

I would be investigating the other Windows as well.

Thank you Todd for your step by step instructions. I really appreciate the help I have received here. I can only imagine that the sill had no treatment if the contractor elected to not even use flashing tape around the perimeter. I am voting for removing the window so we can flash the sill vs just the necessary siding to flash the perimeter. DH and son would prefer we just flash around the outside perimeter after the necessary siding is removed and not have to reinstall the window.

We are able to get a short length of Dupont FlexWrap for the sill. I just bought Typar flashing tape for the perimeter, although, I have also found a source for the Dupont flashing tape. I could return and buy the Dupont flashing tape if that is better than the Typar flashing tape. I did not buy the rolling device, as it seemed so overkill for one window. Any cheaper ways to be sure the tape is well stuck. I have a wooden cylinder shape block I thought I could use.

Sorry, we could not recall if there were nail fins or not. I don't think they cut them off though. I assume the window never came with them.

Looks like we have our work cut out for us, yet again. We have not had good luck with sub contractors.

Carol

Perhaps back caulk the casing before you put it back on and caulk it with Polyurethane caulk where the casing meets the window and siding.

You should be fine without the roller. I'd wait to see if any of the other pro's have more advice or a different aprroach.

As per investigating the other windows, the framer that installed the leaking window, installed a total of three windows for us (he also did our siding). We tested the other one beside this leaking one, and we could not get water through it with the hose. The last one is in our laundry room and we will test it too.

I think we may have to blindly hope the other windows installed by the original framing company will be okay as we have not had water problems with them. Just can't stomach the work (or labour costs) associated with re-flashing them all. They will all get head flashing (drip cap). If I had to guess, they probably did not get the proper flashing either. However, maybe they don't have the extra bare lumber around them?

Carol

Sorry, Todd but can you explain "back caulk the casing"? And what kind of caulk for this back caulking work? Thanks.

Carol

Todd, how are you certain that there is no nail fin? It could be installed onto what looks like xps foam sheathing, and the bare wood filler simply installed over it to bring the finished exterior trim to the proper plane. I'd say it almost seems like that would be the case given that the flashing tape seems to be peeking out from behind those boards... I'm just speculating though...

@ontariomom, id remove one of those filler boards to find out what's going on behind there before the proper methods can be prescribed. If Todd is correct that there is no nail fin, his methods are sound. I might consider bending metal to start off the face of the window as opposed to the flashing tape (essentially fabricating a nail fin), but that's not necessarily diy friendly.... if you are set on doing this yourself, in addition to the advice that you are getting here which is very good, I'd recommend spending a little time reasearching proper window flashing techniques. You can find many diagrams and videos on the subject.

That is an excellent point Homesealed, thought I was looking at the sheathing. I'd want to remove those items and post pics.

It doesn't look like there are any water stains on the top of the window area. It could be leaking on the bottom. Pop the bottom trim off, I'd bet there are water stains under it. It looks like the siding has some water staining under the window in last picture of the first ones posted.

That interior picture also shows what looks like Tyvek inside the exterior sheathing right under the sill framing. With all that spray foam in there water would have a tough time making it down to the sill from the top. There doesn't appear to be any water stains on the sill either.

@ Homesealed. Thanks for your comments. Behind the uncovered filler boards is just Typar paper. The Typar paper is taped with Tuck Tape in spots. There is no flashing tape that has been uncovered so far. We will be removing all of the casing, and can remove one filler board as well. I don't believe there is XPS in that spot (we will know for sure soon). We did have XPS over the 2 x 4 walls before cladding, but not over the 2 x 6 walls (which this window is in). Yes, we have found many good videos on window install. Just wish I had watched them before the contractor did his work on these windows.

@todd: Thanks. I will post more pics once we remove the rest of the grey casement and one filler board.

@ksc36 Thanks for your comments. If we spray water over the window it seems to run down the centre of the window frame and comes out under the inside rough framed window sill. At bit of water also comes out at the inside window sill (with the bulk coming out under the rough framed sill. It we spray the bottom/sill area of the window we do not get water in the house. We will pop all of the grey casement pieces off and re-post. I will look again outside to see if I see any water stains. There appears to be some yellowing from what I assume is caulking or glue on possibily a split board -- not sure. You are correct that there is a bit of Typar paper inside the exterior sheathing.

All: I found this video where some bare wood filler also needed to be flashed. Maybe, these techniques would apply in our case?

http://www.dupont.com/products-and-services/construction-materials/building-envelope-systems/videos/install-and-flash-bump-out-window.html

Hmmm, I found an old picture, that showed when the contractor who did the siding (and a few windows) seems to have used wood filler boards around other windows. Could it be that these were needed to put up the wood siding vs trying to get the plane right between old house and new.

Yikes! Can it get any worse? This is what we found when we took out all the grey window casing and most of the bare wood fillers. There is not even full coverage of building paper, and no flashing tape to be seen. There are even gaps in the OSB.

DIY is slow and a steep learning curve, but not nearly as sloppy as this. Anybody still think we can fix this without taking the window out?

We met with a rep from DuPont today. He gave us some samples and helped us problem solve. We concluded, that for all the windows that need head flashing/drip cap we will need to pull out the top grey casing trim and the bare wood below it. We will then put in flashing tape (9 inch) on the head of the window, and then more flashing tape on drip cap, and then use Tyvek clear tape to tape the flap of the building paper. However, what if we can't find any building paper?

Here is the nasty window. No wonder it leaks.

Call me crazy but they would all be coming out if it were me. The openings would then be prepped properly, pitched sill, flashed, window set with drip cap, caulked correctly then sided and trimmed. Otherwise unfortunately you will always be wondering if the balance are a s**t show as well. And the last thing you want to need to worry about is if it is leaking and you cannot see the leak and you end up with mold.

Thanks millworkman for your comment. A compromise might be to pull this problematic window (which is west facing so receives driving rain) and detail it all correctly. The other windows (there are lots) perhaps we just pull the trim and detail all but the sill? So much back tracking, sidding removal, detailing, reinstalling. We may have to settle on partial fix for the remaining windows.

What would others do? Would you pull all the windows, even though they have not yet leaked? Would you go middle ground and detail the tops and possible sides of the windows (flashing tape), but take the chance on the sills to avoid reinstalling all these windows?

Carol

Millworkmans answer is the correct one and the only one I'd give without seeing things close up. I'd at Least pull the side casings and flash those since it would be easy. Small leaks over time can cause more expensive issues down the road. Imagine doing it 10 years later and your replacing rotted framing , Sheetrock and siding.

I'd agree with the other pros. After seeing this taken apart piece by piece I'm not sure I'd trust the install in my own home. That said, still can't say for certain without a physical inspection... it did answer the nail fin question though.

Thanks for those comments, todd and HomeSealed. The window that is leaking used to be over to the left of its current spot (we moved it to go with the kitchen design). Maybe, that was why there was no building paper to the left. I know most of the house had building paper. The siding guy resecured the building paper (put on by the original framers) as he went. Sometimes, when we came home a new section was done, and we never saw what was under. I hope to hell most of the house ended up getting building paper.

I found some older pictures of the windows secured by the original framing team. None of them had flashing tape either (I assume no sill treatment as well). At the time the windows were installed, we did not have proper window detail/flashing as part of our building code. Now it gets inspected by the inspector. We just missed out on that check and balance.

You will see in the photos there are even gaps in the OSB, like the contractor hacked away with a dull saw. Can we use Great Stuff foam to fill in the voids of the OSB?

Carol

You could use great stuff or give over it with some flashing tape. Perhaps pull the casing and evaluate the Windows one by one. Casements can difficult to install sometimes. I'd lay as much blame on the sider , did he put the window casings on?

I appreciate your help, todd. The sub who did the siding (board and batten), was also a framer by trade (but not our framer). He installed 3 windows (the one leaky one among them). He also put the grey casing around the windows.

My son found it time consuming to remove the grey casing due to the caulking. I hope most of the casing pieces can be reused. Any tricks for more smoothly removing the grey casement pieces?

A cordless oscillating tool is one of my favorites or use the old standby, a utility knife with quick change blades. Use quality blades and change them as soon as they start to dull.

Good to know. He was no doubt using a utility knife with somewhat dull blades. He has a Dremel. Is that what you mean by cordless oscillating tool? He just clarified that it was not only the caulk that slowed him down, but digging the nails out too. He will get faster, I'm sure.

Carol

If the nails have small heads you can pull them through the back side of the casing with a nail puller, large heads need to pounded out the way they came in. An oscillating / multi tool is the type of tool, deemed is a name brand that make many types, so I am not sure. An oscillating tool will cut nails if you use a carved blade. A sharp knife can be pretty quick.

Thanks for the tips, todd. I will pass along your advice.

Carol

Hey Carol!

Just revisiting some old threads I’d commented on and was especially curious to see how this situation turned out. Can you update us, please?

Thanks!

Hi Sammy,

Well, we did not get the windows reflashed before winter hit. So we are going to tackle this now that spring has finally arrived where we live. We will need to take off all the grey trim, install a metal header (may not be the right word), and then use flashing tape, too. If we see any more spots where Typar paper is not installed properly we will address that too. It is a pain for sure. We still have not drywalled so when water comes in, it does not yet damage much.

Carol

Metal Drip Cap is what you are looking for here in terms of the descriptor.

Be sure to seal the mullion between the two windows as well while you are up there.