My chameleon is Martha Gonzales. My aunt & I both grew this rose from ARE for many years. In the coastal zone 9 climate it was hot & humid, the water was somewhat alkaline & hard, the soil was rich black "gumbo" clay. Cuttings rooted from both plants matured to resemble the mother plants. It grew as a typical China, but the flowers were especially small. Bright red, just a bit more than single, quilled petals, white centers with occasional white petal streak, very little scent, lots of blooms, constantly. You could tell MG all over town from the distinctive little starry bright red, white-centered flowers. And even big mature plants tended to have dainty little smooth leaves. I hauled up 2 young plants I personally rooted from cuttings. This is a deserty area, alkaline limestone & caliche soil, alkaline water. Cool nights most of the year. One MG is throwing cupped near double blooms this year, much bluer color & they have a fair fragrance. Last year she threw the big, near-single, flat open, cherry red MG blooms you see in most photos. So did the 2nd plant. Both have "normal" sized rose leaves, not the little ones typical of the old zone. This year the other plant has scores of dark--more bluish blooms. Nearly single, but so dark you'd think this is a Dr. Huey. The petals stay a bit cupped, not the flat-open blooms of last year. Mild to no fragrance, still see a bit of white petal streaking but the white eye is very reduced. Nether plant quills its petals, which was so distinctive in the old climate. The two bushes look like different varieties, now--neither resembling the original plants grown for so long in hot sultry zone 9. I asked Michael Shoup about it & he said they noticed some variation especially in cool night areas. It surprised me because I am SURE of the provenance of both plants, they are planted in the same area, were planted within a very short time of each other, and I had grown the mother plants of both for many years in a very different climate & soil.

Susan, whack the rogue canes back to 3". You can let them bloom first or not. Then the cane makes 2 or 3 laterals; cut these back to 2 or 3 leaves each and you get more branches. Etc. Or, if the canes are flexible and 4-7' long, bend the cane in a hoop and tie it to its own base ("self-pegging"). It will make 3 or 4 laterals at the top of the arch. You can cut off the outer/downward section later if you want. Or, something that works with some varieties not others is to pinch out the growth tips of strong basals when they are about 14" long. Be sure you get the fleshy growth tip, not just leaves. Some roses will branch in response, others will make just one shoot and keep going up. Most shrub roses have an awkward adolescence. You have to be patient and work with them for a few years, just as you know your daughter won't be 13 forever.

No, like I said in my original post they were both moved around a few times before landing in their now permanent spots. I think Tok 2 was moved from the ground into the bag in 2009, and Tok 1 was planted in the ground in 2008...Tok 2 was probably also planted in the ground in 2008 before moving to the bag the next season. Seems like Tok 2 would have time by now to bounce back, especially with better light and no root competition. I'm going to leave it in its bag- it actually works better for me to stay smaller. I just wanted to know if anyone had a theory as to why there would be such a large size discrepancy.

hobby, I applied a large amount of patience:) I have very sandy soil (everyone here talks about Al's gritty mix, I have God's gritty mix) so it drains well. I've applied water and high nitrogen fertilizer, the sun and mild temperatures in winter are free. So I guess the answer is, I just kept using good, basic practices and let nature take its course. I think for in ground citrus in the right environment that is pretty much all that is needed. For container citrus in more challenging environments many of the regulars here are examples of what is needed. Two different problems and two different solutions.