What is the point of the foliar application of the fish? Plants do not take in nutrients in any significant amounts via the foliage (so a very ineffective method of fertilization) and as often as one might need to apply the fish as a fertilizer, it is unlikely to have much impact on the spider mites. As the mites dislike humidity, just spraying down or misting the plants several times a week will have the same effect as the neem and at no cost.

Not interested in using as fertilizer, I have Foliage Pro for that, but trying to keep the upper-hand with spidermites. They have been brutal and spraying has helped, but not controlled the problem. We have had a very wet summer here in ohio, but they persist. I spray with hose at each watering, but I swear, I turn my head for one moment, and they are back at it. I HATE spidermites!

For application of various micro nutrients, foliar application is very helpful for citrus trees. Foliar sprays are not intended to replace root zone fertilizer applications, but never the less they are quite beneficial to the tree. The nutrients applied by foliar spray can absorb into the leaf as long as what is applied remains on the leaf in the liquid state. For nitrogen applications the most easily absorbed form as a foliar spray is urea (low biuret formulations)..

Absolutely no benefit of using fish emulsion to control spider mites other than the humidity factor of spraying any liquid on the foliage. But as that is the case, why not just continue to use plain old water?? You may need to hose down or spray the plants daily at least (if not more often) to effect complete control but then just the occasional humidification of the plants should be sufficient to keep the mites at bay.

Are these indoor or outdoor plants?

Label says to use pine oil based cleaner for cleanup which leads me to conclude that it is an oil/water emulsion which should suffocate mites, although it is not formulated for that purpose.

You know, I can't scientifically tell you why my trees never have a mite, scale, mealy, or thrip issues when they come in or all summer, but all I can tell you is that I regularly use Neptune's Harvest on mines for the reason of controlling pests and it works...If I did not do that, just watering the leaves alone does not work, for I tried that one year and I was sorry I did.

Mike))

For everyone who uses or advocates the use of Neem, it is a BROAD SPECTRUM INSECTICIDE; that means it kills all your beneficials that aid in the control of mites. Simple washing of the plant goes a long way to controlling mites. Horticultural oil is helpful in controlling scale and spider mites. By applying neem, you are killing everything that is trying to help you. A few years ago in my Antigua garden I had a nest of Brachonid wasps; my wife wanted me to kill them because they "bothered" the guests. No one was ever stung; but she persisted until I agreed and killed the nest. Within 3 weeks we had the largest infestation of scale on my Meyer lemons!!! Now we have the wasps back; but luckily for me, the nest in on the neighboring property.

gardengal48 they are potted, zone 6 Cleveland, OH and on the deck with southern exposure for the summer. Misting with water several times a day-indoors or out- had zero effect. Hosing them off certainly slows them down, and neeming kills what is active on the plant at the time, but i read that it can cause fruit or flower drop. I feel like I am just chasing the mites from one plant to the next, and at the moment they are the most controlled (several bottles of neem product later). I guess the solution is to move my most treasured plants to a better hose off location and give em a good spray each morning, cause moisture alone is not enough. Thanks.

mikerno_1micha "my trees never have a mite......" So stinking jealous over here! I swear there is a direct correlation between the money spent on plants, and the mites desire to kill it...honestly, there are acres of woods for them to eat, but no, they don't want that...how about the plants I purchased on sale for $6.99 a flat, I've plenty of those....but NAY! those little buggers go after all the good plants! So Mike, how "regularly" are you spraying FE on your plants? Once a week? twice?

johnmerr I know, I know....its a broad spectrum, that is why I am looking at other options

How many trees do you have?

How big are they?

Mike, I have 4 trees that I plan to overwinter: a Key Lime and Meyer Lemon (both have had mites) and my two new trees a cara cara and persian lime. All of them are record buck farm rootings, so they are small. The two new ones are 1-2 ft, no fruit or flowers, and the key lime and meyer are 3 foot of so and both are carrying fruit.

At the moment, both the new plants are in quarantine on the north side of the house, so it may be a good opportunity for a control group/ test of sorts. Perhaps I move the Meyer and Key lime closer to the hose, where they will get a daily shower. And the two newbies can get a Fish emulsion spray (I still don't know how often would be appropriate) and then I can compare which methods are best suited to this little problem of mine...

In an above post Gardengal suggest --- "why not just continue to use plain old water??"--- to rid a plant of spider mites. This suggestion did not seem to be received well by other members as a viable solution. In my greenhouse I have a professional restaurant stainless steel double sink with the typical sprayer that restaurants use to clean off food scraps from the dishes.. I have long taken container plants of all kind over to the sink and washed off spider mites. The mites are gone, and the plants like a good bathing. I has worked well for me for YEARS. If the container plant is to large, then I spray with Ultra Pure horticultural oil.

I cannot speak for others, but for myself I always wish for a one-stop-shop-treatment, unrealistic though it may be. Its a pain in the butt to drag plants about and haul out the hose each day, especially once indoors. And I am sure that my poor citrus trees think its a pain in the butt to have to be grown in a pot- in zone 6a! All the while the spidermites merrily snack away.

So, I either get in line, and bath my plants daily, or I continue to lose plants to mites. Moisture alone, however, has had zero effect on my mites, washing them off by hand each day, does.

It seems a bit excessive to wash off a tree every day. I wash them only when I find a problem.

Spider mites like dry and dirty (dusty) conditions. Washing the plant with a good spray once a week is usually enough to control them.

To me the hardest part of washing the tree every day would be not getting the potting medium wet as to not cause a constant wet environment for the roots. How do you guys keep the water from going into the pot? I like to water with a watering can (faster per pot and better control for me) but have taken to using the hose with a sprayer (because of my back) and spraying down the leaves as well when I water but that's about every 2-4 days depending on the heat, even when I've tried just getting the leaves a decent amount of water still runs down into the pot.

As for the Fish Emulsion I only recently got some and only applied one application before hurting my back and not being able to get out into the garden much. If you want to see if it works for you start with the recommended dose 1x a week and see how it does. You may be able to go every two weeks but I suspect it will be a trial and error process.

The reason why I asked is because there are a few things that have also worked very well for me in the past, before I even used Fish Emulsion..

Why not get the stuff they sell at Home Depot or Lowe's, called'Horticultural Soap, by Safer's and use that once every 3 to 4 days until the mites have died?

Or you could use a safe soapy water, preferably a good natural soap mixed with Rosemary Oil..Do that once every 3 to 4 days for about three weeks..

Too, you could keep them at bay while outside with a hose and spray under the leaves upwards about once a week every week which would also control them.

Here is three safe methods along with Fish Emulsion one that would get rid of them in a jiffy but the key is to maintain your regimen and not loose a beat!

They are small enough for a hand sprayer and should have no mites at all after about three weeks of treatment.

Mike

I wish this would work for scales and ants too. I swear, the ants are hiding the scales somewhere and every time I think they are gone, some new are appearing. Not as fast as in the beginning of the growing season but still reappearing.

At the risk of being shot down, how about using a chemical treatment? I have treated mites (came in on a new lemonade tree, spread to two other citrus) with a mite & insect spray (called Mavrik here) containing tau-fluvalinate, a new generation synthetic pyrethroid. Labelled as "gentle on beneficials such as ladybirds & lacewings" (how, I don't know), and "non-toxic to honey bees once the spray has dried" (spray at dusk to avoid the bees).

Did it three times, mites gone, haven't come back (so far, that was last year). While I'm generally not a fan of chemicals, it worked with three treatments. It sounds like all of the safer/more organic type treatments require many more goes. So, overall, would the beneficial insect carnage be more with 30 oil or neem or insecticidal soap sprayings, or with only 3 pyrethroid sprays? Just something to consider...

Of course I did remove all the developing fruit, which was sad, as I didn't want to eat sprayed fruit, at least not from my own garden (supermarket apples are just laden with chemicals, and I eat those...), but the trees probably needed that while they were recovering anyway. I wouldn't use this as a preventive, which is what you're after, but it sounds like you should get the problem under control first and then look at prevention. Just my two cents worth... :)

I think for mites it is just overkill

Actually I have find it quite easy to eradicate mites.. One (1) thorough spray with a horticultural oil and its done. If you want an insect DIFICULT to get rid of, try eliminating white fly.

Ha, not a greenhouse owner yet. But I can imagine that this is a pest not easy to get rid off.

gardengal said, What is the point of the foliar application of the fish? Plants do not
take in nutrients in any significant amounts via the foliage (so a very
ineffective method of fertilization) and as often as one might need to
apply the fish as a fertilizer, it is unlikely to have much impact on
the spider mites.

and

Absolutely no benefit of using fish emulsion to control spider mites
other than the humidity factor of spraying any liquid on the foliage.

gg, I promise I'm not following you around to disagree with you ;-) This isn't supposed to be a disagreement, but more of an explanation - a theoretical explanation. The theory for spraying seaweed, molasses, compost tea, and even milk, on the exterior of plants is to feed the microbes living there. I believe it was something Dr Ingham wrote many years ago that indicated there were 20 "layers" of microbes living on the leaves and stems of plants. I believe she wrote that back in her early compost tea days. By feeding the external microbes they become more healthy. Apparently these external microbes help the plant to resist and fight against both disease and insect pests. When the microbes are healthy they do a better job of it.

As an anecdotal example of similar theory, we had a botanical research hobbyist in San Antonio for a long time who invited me into his greenhouse one day. He showed me three plants in 4-inch pots. I don't know what the plants were, but they had enough foliage that it extended beyond the pot rims. He had them pushed together so that the canopies intermingled. One of the plants was covered in aphids while the other two had no aphids. The research he was doing was on potting mixes. It was a double blind test, so he did not know what was in each of the pots. All he knew was that one had plain Walmart generic potting soil, one had Walmart generic plus compost, and the last had Walmart plus compost and crushed basalt. He was testing for root mass development and not testing for insect resistance, but the way our conversation was going, he wanted me to see these plants. His theory for the insect invasion on one plant was the idea that a healthy plant will resist aphids. If you are thinking like a scientist, then you're thinking that this proves nothing. One sample is an anecdote. As impressive as it was to see aphids on one plant and not on the others, I would very much like to see the test done on 30 groups of plants and not on just one group. Still it is findings like this that should spur research at universities.

Actually, nutrient foliar sprays, at least commercially, is not intended to nourish microbes, but is done to nourish the tree.

Silica, the microbes have a symbiotic relationship with the plant. By feeding the microbes, they will help the tree. As gardengal mentioned, the leaves and stems of most plants are not good at direct "foliar" feeding as it has been advertised for decades. Healthy external microbes can take some of the stress off of a plant which can make the plant look better. Increased turgidity and improved color can give the effect of feeding, but I don't think the plant is directly feed by the seaweed.

Plants feed themselves with photosynthesis to produce sugars. Normally the roots exchange some of those sugars for other nutrients found in the soil by a biological activity with soil microbes. Osmotic pressures also come into play in the root zones.

Well, dchall, we will have to agree to disagree. Foliar sprays are normally intended to add micronutrients, witch do absorb into the leaf structure itself. If any microbes would like to munch on the trace minerals before absorption so be it.

We absolutely disagree on that point. Perhaps if you could further define the word, absorb, in terms of a biological process, it would help me to understand what you're thinking.

The Myth of Foliar Feeding

If you use a liquid fertilizer that contains all the necessary micronutrients - such as any of the Dyna Gro products - then the need for any foliar applications of fertilizers are non-existent. And since the OP stated that the intent was not for the purpose of fertilization - he is using the DG Foliage Pro for that - it is just the issue of whether or not a foliar application of fish emulsion will control spider mites. And the answer to that is no.

Ahhh, so, gg, you're a follower of Dr Chalker-Scott. I consider her to be a well educated crackpot with an anti organic agenda. She fits right in with Dr Jerry Parsons from Texas A&M. I believe in both cases they are intelligent enough to understand microbiology, they simply don't want to try. That might be why we occasionally disagree.

I agree with you that fish emulsion will not directly control spider mites. And I (begrudgingly) agree with Dr Chalker-Scott that micro ounces of foliar nutrients do not provide sufficient sustenance to support a plant. However, to summarize what I said above, I believe the fish emulsion will help the plant to keep spider mites from coming to visit in the first place.

LOL!! Gosh, I didn't realize being a PhD in horticulture with minors in both biology and botany qualify one as being a 'crackpot' :-)) Not to demean your experience at all, dchall, but maybe you could enlighten us as to what educational background YOU have that makes your assessment of two highly educated plant scientists as particularly accurate or relevant?? It would appear to me that having an education but not sharing your very narrow viewpoint automatically qualifies anyone as being a crackpot or the information they impart wrong. I am happy to encounter disagreement but it is really more of an interpretation of experience than it is a situation of being right or wrong.

As to having an "anti-organic agenda", I see no sign of that in any of her publications. She is not pro-organic by any means but neither is she pro synthetic ferts and pesticide usage either. I actually find her opinions and recommendations rather middle of the road. btw, her opinions and the scientific substantiation of her publications are not hers alone.......they are shared by many in similar positions.

Whoa, Gardengal.... I am the resident curmudgeon on this site....internationally certified. We allow here almost all opinions; whether they are valid, supported, or just dreamed up. As for me, I have quite a bit of experience, but only in one small thing; but I don't come to this forum to teach; I come here to learn. Some say experience is the best teacher; but it is often expensive and too often painful. The experience of OTHERS is the best teacher; it is painless and free.

Look I LOVE you all and I have no problem with any of you..

I may not have a 'scientific ' explanation about my success with fish emulsion, but in my case and that of many of my friends it DOES control mites and even smothers them with the oily residue left behind, that is if you are using what I use, COLD PRESSED FE from Neptune's Harvest...I always have a problem with them on tomato plants unless I use it and even my peppers. I always HAD a problem with mites before using the stuff, and I never do anymore..I have never had a problem with white flies......Fish Emulsion for me = no mites, scale or mealies...That's in fact here in my case and that of many others...If you don't think it does, no problem...)

But if i feel it can help many others, I am going to say it even if others disagree...))

Mike,

We all learn from experience; and the best is the experience of others. I have learned much from you and your experiences; they are valued here. The experiences of others at times encourage me to try things for myself... sometimes I get the same results; and sometimes I don't, but at least I learn something. It is a little like playing poker... if you lose, at least you have learned some lessons; if you win, you probably did not learn anything, but at least you have some money; the worst is to break even... you have only wasted your time.

dchall - You said:

By feeding the external microbes they become more healthy. Apparently
these external microbes help the plant to resist and fight against both
disease and insect pests. When the microbes are healthy they do a
better job of it.

Can you back up this statement with references to peer reviewed scientific papers?

Mike I spray regularely with neptuns and no mites, aphids or mealy bugs. Scales is different. Not as many as in the beginning but still not completly gone. And ants still there too. Maybe if I find a safe way to remove the ants?

No ants, no aphids. Scale is a different critter, most commonly spread by birds... sometimes by butterflies, human clothing, or even wind. My most powerful ally in controlling scale are wasps, most particularly the Brachonid wasp; but systemic insecticide helps a lot.

John your words are very kind and coming from you that means a lot considering I have learned much from you too, while even learning about how scale is brought about and how best to control that..I had no idea..Thanks!

Susanne, don't give it, they will eventually die off like mine did. It can take some time but systemic is the fastest way for many. I have been there and done that but now that I use FE on a regular basis, I no longer have to worry about any other method. Once they are gone they can be easily controlled..

Back to the OP's question, directed at those who use FE for spider mite control : how often are you spraying and what dose are you using?

once every week one gallon and one tbl FE

I use about a cup per gallon.....Probably a lot more than most do..........Once every week until they come in starting in August. Every once in a while when they are outside.

oh, you really use a lot more then I do. Maybe I should up my dosage to get rid of the scales before winter.

So, this is what you use in your greenhouse? I just can not imagine using it during the wintertime in the house because of the smell

I don't have to use it ever in the house....I use a softer version or Neem mixed with alchohol and a bit of natural soap and at times I ad Rosemary Oil since I hate the smell of Neem. Or I get lazy and just use Horticultural Soap to get me through but so far I have had no need.

Maybe the reason why I have no scale and other pest of that nature that everyone else seems to get is because I make a much stronger mix. Still my mix has never burned the leaves on my plants when spraying early in the morning or later in the afternoon or even in the afternoon when it was the only time I had time to.

There is also a very good product that will wipe out mites and other pest rather quickly that you can put on the end of a hose and do a very good soaking on all your plants that many I know that do and have great success..They us All Seasons Dormant Oil...

I'm lanning to use that before the trees coming in for the winter. Just to make sure this time that I don't bring any unwanted guests. Mike when do you bring your trees in? Last year I had them out till beginning of november. First cold nights in october I just moved them to the house wall and covered with fleece. This year I have to bring the little once earlier, thinking end of september. Just not long enough house wall ;)