What I ment was there's more phosphates in poo than in a washer.

Before anyone decides phosphates are dangerous I'd recommend research...after all they are put into many foods. And the algae scare was just that a scare. I'm not going to be drug into a debate, I did my homework awhile back.

I will say though we all have a choice how much phosphates we flush down the toilet just as I made a choice to use phosphates..when needed.

You don't get a choice when it comes to poo. You do have a choice when it comes to the washer. Why add to a problem? Also, if you read food labels it is in a lot of food such as fish, poultry, cheese, pet food and so on. That is why many people choose the source of their food (untreated fresh seafood) to avoid these additives.

In a single load by 1 person, it's a small amount. However when many people start doing it, it's no longer insignificant. Most people do laundry a few times a week.

You can't really compare it to bodily functions. Those are not a choice. Adding dangerous chemicals is a choice, with consequences. I don't appreciate people willing to damage the environment for slightly cleaner clothing. I truly don't understand it. We're all in this earth together.

Care to share your sources, mamapinky? I found a lot of random articles from publications I've never heard of but according to get EPA it is a real and widespread problem. If you have a more legitimate source saying they are safe, then I would love to see it.

https://www.epa.gov/nutrientpollution/problem

Actually....phosphates in poo I'd determined by what you eat that contains phosphates..some people eont eat anything containing sugar, some won't eat thongs containing phosphates. It is a choice.

As for links, first if you never noticed I never posted a link because i don't know how...also I read read read..I have never saved my sources.

If this makes me wrong than so be it.

You can just copy the URL and paste it. This website automatically turns it into a clickable link.

I can explain how to save a website link, Mamapinky. When you are at a website that is giving you valuable information, you go up to the top of your screen and right click. That will highlight the page you are on. For example, right now I am at this page:

http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/4662207/mamapinky-was-right?n=26

If I right click my mouse anywhere on that area, it will highlight it.

Then I left click and a box comes up and within that box I click on COPY.

You can then paste that into a Word document.

This would allow you to save your sources.

Thank You but I'm on a smart phone..I don't use a PC.

It's OK Mama. I, for one, can live without knowing how many phosphates are in poo.

You have a special household, children with allergies (asthma?), children with needs and unique laundry and you've worked up your own routine that meets everyone's criteria....It's fine ;0) I know how much effort you put into clean clothes and linens for your family.

I'm not going to argue the Eco system. But I will say phosphates alone are not the problem. Its more involved than that. Listen, do you think laundry detergent is better today, safer, than when it had phosphates...it took several other chemicals to replace phosphates...research the ingridents in detergent and tell me its safe for humans or the Eco system. TThere's tons of things in our lives that are bad for our eco, and we each do the best we can to play a part in saving and harming this great Eco system. I can't post links as I never saved them to begin with but when I run across them I will share.

Morz...Thank You. And as I said above...STPP is not for everyone. .it should be saved for special needs..Elizabeth has a special need.

"I'm not going to argue the Eco system. But I will say phosphates alone are not the problem. Its more involved than that. Listen, do you think laundry detergent is better today, safer, than when it had phosphates.."

That's a good choice to not argue because I don't think think there's anything to argue about. The science the EPA used to order the removal of phosphates from detergents was, to my recollection, uncontroversial. Chi's cited source is the EPA's information site. Your sources don't exist just because you say they do and I think they don't exist at all.

The scientists working in the area think the revised formulations are safer for the environment and for people. Do you think you know more or better than they do?

You've decided you can give yourself an excuse to not follow the rules everyone else follows for the common good. I'm glad most people don't feel that way.

Memory refresh: Phosphates were removed from US laundry detergents by EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) recommendation/demand because this chemical has long endurance and was believed to be bad for the environment. Laundry detergents of the past that contained phosphates did have good cleaning power.

Mamapinky, I discussed this thread with DH, an engineer. He explained that any properly-run waste water treatment system should be capturing any loose phosphates that you happen to put down your drain before it can do any harm to the environment. The EPA's position on phosphates probably has more to do with industrial applications and malfeasance than with household laundry- just his guess based on his knowledge of water treatment in the US. Here is a link to phosphates being dumped into the environment by a giant mining company that agreed to pay a nearly $2b fine http://www.tampabay.com/news/environment/phosphate-giant-mosaic-agrees-to-pay-2-billion-over-mishandling-of/2247897.

People's whose waste water by-passes water treatment should probably abstain from using the chemicals.

Unlike some, I do not pretend to follow the letter of the law at all times. I do not have an air gap for my dishwasher in California, for example. I buy the silver dragees cake decorations from Dean&Deluca and bring them home to California where they are illegal. There are a myriad of niggling regulations people flout every day without the world coming undone.

I still have some questions. I am no expert on laundry, so please pardon if these questions seem pretty basic. Is STPP for laundry used as a booster along with detergent? Or is it used instead of detergent ?

Mamapinky, I discussed this thread with DH, an engineer. He explained that any properly-run waste water treatment system should be capturing any loose phosphates that you happen to put down your drain before it can do any harm to the environment.

I'm not understanding if one lives in a city with a treatment system why there would be an issue using STPP if it is indeed removed before harm is done?

On the other hand. if it does cause harm, why is it legally available for sale on Amazon?

I am wondering if reasoning behind this issue is similar to the reasoning behind antibiotics in animal feed. There is a trend now to remove antibiotics in feed in general, because all animals don't need antibiotics all the time and there are adverse consequences for widespread use when resistant bugs develop.

But the antibiotics are not banned for use and if there is individual need the farmer is free to use them and no one seems to criticize that use.

MamaPinky, I am very sorry that you are being attacked here left and right. You certainly do not deserve to be treated so rudely or to be bullied. I certainly did not mean to cause such controversy.

There are some who seem to bring an extra large spoon to stir the pot.

Perhaps it is time to drop this subject entirely.

Elizabeth its ok really..I knew phosphates could open a can of worms..lol..its ok really.

By the way last I checked phosphates were banned only in certain states, think its 14 states.

Lucille, no STPP is not a detergent, although it allows you to use less detergent than you would normally use.

I won't pretend to know all the legalitys involving use of phosphates in the home, but ya know you can still buy phosphated detergent. Bubble Bandit sells a fantastic laundry and dishwasher detergent.

Are phosphates illegal....I think they are only banned in certain states in detergents, not foods. But manufactures decided to make all products phosphate free as it would have cost to much to make two different formulas and than ship different ones to different states.

Anyone know if the US is still having problems with algae blooms ?? I think certain areas do, and I ask myself why...are phosphates still being used as a fertilizer where it runs off into the streams and rivers?? Somewhere I read something about the Dept. Of Agriculture and phosphates.

Elizabeth, I am glad you brought up the subject. There are people with spoons and they are everywhere, I met one when I first asked a question in the Laundry forum.

Mamapinky has a lot of knowledge about laundry, and it is my opinion that no one should be silenced merely for asking questions and getting answers.

She led off by saying this STPP might not be for everyone so she certainly is not drawing any lines in the sand, quite the opposite she seems quite reasonable.

If something is controversial, to my way of thinking it is more talk, not less, that may bring out the facts and allow each reader to make a more informed decision for themselves.

I think laundry detergents are a small contributor to the problem, but they get attention because it's one easy and realistic thing to change. The other main causes are agriculture (fertilizer, waste, etc.), wastewater and storm water, and that is harder to change. Even small changes can add up though if everyone does it.

People make choices every day that harm the environment, myself included. I just think people need to be aware of the environmental impact so that ignorance isn't a factor in the decision to use these detergents.

Let's at least get the terminology correct. It is Sodium triphosphate (STP), also sodium tripolyphosphate (STPP), or tripolyphosphate (TPP), but it is not STTP.

Adding phosphates to your laundry will help clean the clothing. No one disputes that. And you can be an expert on laundry but not knowledgeable about what your laundry additive is doing to the environment.

I agree that industry and agriculture affect the environment more than one consumer can. But everyone does laundry, so collectively, we have an effect on the environment. I don't think it is a matter of silencing someone who posts here. But when someone denies what seems to be pretty settled science, then says she has the facts to prove what she is saying, then says she can't show you those facts because she is unskilled on the computer, I think logical people will challenge her.

I miss some of the old time good stuff too. I wish I could buy old time Glass Wax. I remember my father started hoarding DDT when he learned it was going to be banned - shudder.

Graywings123 stated it perfectly. And, I saw no evidence of bullying or rudeness. Just honest questions.

I said I have the facts to prove whatI'm saying??I

Greywings...where exactly did I say I had facts to prove what I was saying?

This is such a strange thread. You said, "Before anyone decides phosphates are dangerous I'd recommend
research...after all they are put into many foods. And the algae scare
was just that a scare. I'm not going to be drug into a debate, I did
my homework awhile back."

The literal, dictionary definition of "research" is "investigation or experimentation aimed at the discovery and interpretation of facts." If you did research that supported your claim that phosphates are not dangerous, you should have found facts. Without facts, it's impossible to draw a conclusion. Since you have offered a research-based conclusion to this forum, you must have some facts to back it up. That's just how research works. It's not really an optional component.

I'm not trying to pick on you but I think it's important to establish the actual facts here so that people are aware. It's fine to give your opinions on something but you have to be careful in stating absolutes that can be either supported or debunked by science or you'll likely be challenged, as you've seen.

In that case....my opinion of phosphates have been exactly that....my opinion.

Next in line.......

I don't know how to post links on a phone.

I have done a lot of reading about laundry and phosphates and I made the mistake of sharing the little I learned, I didn't save what I read, why would I, I read it for my own benefit..not thinking I'd be in a forum and talking about it.

I am sorry I even mentioned it..but I'm not sorry for the reasons you think Elmer..I'm sorry because I opened myself up to not justhaving people ask for proof of my words, but because when I read your last post Elmer calling me a lier, I felt genuine pain. I felt ashamed I felt alone..I felt embarassed. I felt everything you intended with your words. I also felt hopeless...because there's no way for me to prove my words so there's no way for me to be given respect here at the KT...to many will now look past anything I say as being worthless and untrue. I have always been an honest person, I'm not sure I've ever been called a lier before and based on the fact that I didn't save links to something I read.

There are many very kind and interesting people at the KT, and than there are some with not just a big spoon, but who think they wear a Judges gown.... I'm not expecially a soft person, I don't cry often, but some of you really do know how to make a person feel bad...I did learn a lesson though.

"Anyone know if the US is still having problems with algae blooms ?? I
think certain areas do, and I ask myself why...are phosphates still
being used as a fertilizer where it runs off into the streams and
rivers??" Huh?

"Anyone know if the US is still having problems with algae blooms ?? I think certain areas do, and I ask myself why...are phosphates still being used as a fertilizer where it runs off into the streams and rivers??" Huh?

Yes, Michigan has algae blooms in various places and one of the causes is phosphorous.

From Mi DEQ Web site: Two factors known to contribute to HABs in surface waters are high phosphorus input and the presence of invasive zebra and quagga mussels. The DEQ’s water quality programs work to reduce phosphorus loads throughout the state.

I don't think you should feel bad, but just realize the visibility of
this site. The people who challenged you were challenging a very
specific thing that you were saying. When you tell people to do
research, you need to expect that people will want to know what research
you've done. When you imply you know things that other people don't
know about a subject, it's normal that people will want to know your
sources.

If this was harmless information being shared, I don't
think you would have received the response that you have. However, it
is a legitimate problem, and every little bit adds up. If you still
choose to use phosphates, then that's your choice. But call it what it
is - a choice to do something harmful to the environment for your
family's benefit. We all do it in different ways. Pretending it's not harmful helps no one.

Rita:

I'm not reading past mamapinky's post of feeling hurt. All I know is mama knows her stuff when it comes to laundry. She helped someone who had a laundry otoblem. Why it had to turn into such a huge ordeal is beyond me.

Mamapinky, don't feel bad. There is NO ONE on this forum that lives a completely environ llmentally friendly life.

Sorry couldn't correct the a bov e error. My phone likes to make l's instead of backspacing

"Anyone know if the US is still having problems with algae blooms ?? I think certain areas do, and I ask myself why...are phosphates still being used as a fertilizer where it runs off into the streams and rivers??"

Oh yes, it is a huge problem throughout Ohio! And Lake Erie, one of the great lakes, is badly affected! Didn't you hear about the incident where Toledo had so much toxin from Lake Erie's algae infested water that they had to shut down their water system?

The problem is being blamed on agricultural run-off -- as much or more, I believe, from the practice of spreading manure on fields (the major way that manure from chicken and hog farms is disposed of) than from the use of chemical fertilizers.

It used to be a problem in the creeks and rivers also some decades ago, but the elimination of phosphates from detergent has helped that IIRC. Most of the state is rural without access to city sewage treatment systems.

What are people with spoons? Is that a regional thing?

"Stirring the pot" is an idiom meaning the person is agitating a situation to cause a reaction or trouble. To expand the idiom; the person would use a spoon.

Chi, your posts make so much sense. Disagreeing with one's position on such a forum is not hurtful, but rather informative. There was good reason to remove phosphates from detergents, even though they helped with our laundry chores.

Several of the original posts have been deleted from this thread.

I deleted none of my posts but did see a few of others missing.

Sjerin, I saw nothing wrong with anyone asking questions or questioning me..I took offense at how some of it was ask and I took great offense of being called a lier straight out.

Elizabeth prior to recommending STPP to you I should have told you phosphates are a highly debatable subject..frankly I didn't think to otherwise I'd probably have also felt the need to get into the other chemicals currently in detergents that are also highly debatable.

Rita, Thank You.

Mamapinky, do not feel alone. There are legions of lurkers out here, who know you are the voice of reason, and so many of us enjoy your posts and opinions and advice. Do NOT feel harassed. It might be nice to have another thread about ecology of phosphates, for those that wish to debate it. Plenty of folks appreciate you and your advice.

You need to be properly thanked for all your posts and advice, and as a laundry lurker, I'm here to do it.

Thank you mamapinky.

Mrs.S Thank You for the kind words. Between you, Rita, Elizabeth, Moonie, Morz, & Lucille, I feel much better LOL. It wasn't the questions I was ask so much as me being called a lier outright which I'm not.

Thank You to those that want to remain anonymous LOL.. don't worry I won't mention names, but it was pleasently surprising to find so many private messages with such kind words.

Now good folks its time we move on to the next debate. I only opened this up again to say Thank you.

mamapinky says

"Should everyone use STPP..no..will it hurt you or your textiles...no..."

"Before anyone decides phosphates are dangerous I'd recommend
research...after all they are put into many foods. And the algae scare
was just that a scare." _________________________________________________________________

STPP, is a suspected neurotoxin according to the
National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health’s (NIOSH)
Registry of Toxic Effects of Chemical Substances. Food-grade STPP may
cause acute
skin irritation, and prolonged contact with skin should be avoided. STPP is listed on the U.S. Environmental
Protection Agency’s Federal Insecticide, Fungicide and Rodenticide Act
as a registered pesticide and it is also registered as an air
contaminant under California’s Occupational and Safety Health Act. The
material safety data sheet lists STPP as toxic to the lungs with
prolonged exposure having the potential to produce organ damage. This
neurotoxin also has the ability to cause internal inflammation from
those suffering from autoimmune diseases. Inflammation leads to painful
flare-ups.

Sounds exactly like other chemicals in CURRENT day laundry detergents...do any of you really think many ingredients in current laundry detergents are any less toxic...safer for the envior? Safer for you? NOT!! Have any of you recommended to a loved one or a friend a brand of laundry detergent Tide? Gain? ALL ? or any of the other brands on your grocery stores shelf?? Shame on me for recommending a product that may or may not be toxic...but how many of you've done the same...why don't you go down the list of chemicals in your detergent, make up, lotions, ect ect...than tell me your any better than me. How many products do you have in your home with toxic chemicals. ...For that matter how many of you bathed your babies in a no more tears shampoo/bath soap prior to the change a few years ago...ever wonder what made it no more tears...

This isn't about the Eco system now..Terry has changed it to me now recommending a toxic chemical..I suggest before any of you throw stones you first research the chemicals in your products...and no I'm not providing a link...your not a judge and I'm not on your witness stand.

Thanks for the explanation, Elizabeth.

I have a chronic illness and am
referred to as a spoon person due to the Spoon Theory I utilize to
plan my daily activities based on stamina or lack of.

So if someone has a question about a
statement or has a different opinion, that makes them a pot stirrer?
Then, I am a pot stirrer as I question often in an attempt to make
wise decisions for myself.

No one disputes the effectiveness of stpp for laundry. It is not about being right or wrong, but about
having all the facts, of being well informed.

Recently at a seminar I attended, I was
astonished at the number of people with heart problems who thought
they were consuming a heart healthy diet consisting of fish and lean
chicken only to learn the stpp added to their food to keep it fresh
causes sodium content to skyrocket beyond acceptable safe levels. The
answer to that is to use fresh fish/seafood and untreated food.

Mama you say you don't mind questions,
but you don't answer them straight out. You're saying something is
safe because it is in poo is akin to me saying sugar is sweet, it
tastes good, it is in many foods, it's in your blood, urine, and poo.
Therefor, it is good for you.

I am noticing that only comments that
agree with you are thanked here. Everyone has a valid opinion and
much can be learned from a two-sided conversation otherwise, it isn't
a conversation worth having.

These days you practically need a degree when reading the ingredients listed in food.

So if someone has a question about a statement or has a different opinion, that makes them a pot stirrer?

"Stirring the pot" is an idiom meaning the person is agitating a situation to cause a reaction or trouble.

No, Irma. Simply having a different opinion does not make one a pot stirrer.

I don't have a problem answering questions if I know the answer..however if I'm being ask a question just so someone can jump saying your wrong..that's different and no I have no problem being wrong, surely no one is always right we live we learn all the time. Its when a question deliberately ask in order to set someone up.

As for seafood and chicken containing phosphates...I'd pass along that I think phosphates are also in.

Processed cheeses

Processed meats

Many canned soups

Many commercially made baked goods

Toothpaste

Mouthwash

Cereal

Perhaps not every brand..and maybe its even changed recently I don't know.

I just thought I'd pass that along do to serious health concerns in people with heart issues.

Thanks Lucille, it just isn't obvious to me, I guess.

Yes, it is in a lot of food. People who are trying to eat healthy due to issues will read labels in an effort to avoid certain things. It is not so obvious that it is in seafood and chicken which is supposedly healthy.

I think it best, to admit when one doesn't know the answer and leave it at that.

Irma..lol...frankly somewhere on this thread I got lost and don't know what the questions to me were, I could go back and read, but not gonna. Lol