Hi all, not sure I'd classify myself as a "grower" but I do dabble with my blue spruce. I have maybe a thousand I've grown from seed, ranging in size from 3" to 12" now, and still in 5" plugs. This fall I will transplant about 250 of the largest to 1 gal. pots and see how it goes (and move to 2 gal. next year, once I see how things develop. I've been researching soil-less container soils. I can buy Pro-Mix or the Sunshine Mix #4 but am concerned that the pH will be a bit high. I understand that in order for a blue spruce to be "blue" (at least for the 50% that have the ability to turn blue from the regular kaibab variety - although I have many "Majestica" that claim 90% will turn blue, and have some (claimed to be) "Misty Blue" which apparently were selected from the best of the Majestica orchard, but are no longer harvested) the pH should be about 5.5 or even less. I think both of the above pre-mixes have pH's greater than this. One mix I saw called for about 20% perlite, 20% vermiculite, 60% sphagnum peat moss, and 1/2 cup each of bone meal, blood meal, and dolomitic lime per 8 gallons of mix. I suspect that if I were to use this mix for blue spruce, I might eliminate vermiculite and reduce the lime to maybe 2 tablespoons? It looks from this thread that using primarily pine bark fines may be adviseable? I suppose I could also substitute turface for perlite although not sure I could find same. I don't know if I'd need any other additives like CRF? I'm hoping to keep costs down. It seems to me that I can mix my own soil for about 1/3rd less cost than pre-mix, unless I'm missing something? I have hundreds++ more blue spruce coming down the pipeline, so cost is important. Sorry for being so new at this. It was enjoyable planting the seeds (all outdoors, which was a challenge) but now a few years later I want to keep going with this, so am on to the potting stage. Any advise is helpful.

The largest cypress I've ever visited was the late, great Senator Cypress in Sanford, FL. It caught on fire and burned down some years ago. The story about how the fire started absolutely infuriates me and I won't go into it here. Volume should be the measuring stick for the conifers. In terms of volume, the Senator clearly exceeded the other well known bald cypresses in the South, including the Tennessee Titan. I have up close up photos of the Titan and have no doubt about this. The Titan was still a wonderful tree. The Cat Island, LA trees, which I have visited numerous times, are indeed huge at the base with a very quick taper. IMO, there are several cypress trees at Cat Island that are more impressive than the national champ, which I still suspect is two trees grown together, despite DNA evidence that apparently suggests otherwise. One of my favorite cypresses for form is the former Mississippi champion at Sky Lake WMA in west central Mississippi. The current Mississippi champion is located within 100 yards of the former champion. I have not visited the Arkansas champ yet, but from the photos I have it looks very impressive for form.

I think here it was said most of what there is to say about the subject. i also want to add that in PC there are not really specific rules, it´s a process in wich you try to work the best with what you have and in time you plan to achieve your vision, and your vision has everything to do with your ethics and the Pc principles. It can be that people in PC don´t understand the whole implications of the principles, but if you understand them fully there is no way you can use inorganic elements or pesticides and such, but there is the problem that not always you can have the ideal picture going on... you are moving towards it. There is an other problem, as PC is a free movement, maybe it´s not well tought by the facilitators, or maybe there is no follow up so one person can do what ever he or she wants... it´s about your personal responsability and commitment to your own life, to human beings, to the earth. Although i haven´t met a Permi that isn´t right on the path, there most be a lot, but i haven´t seen them. I had this same question about Pc and organics, and i found no awnser for a long time, some permis would be offended or would look down to me because they thought i didn´t got a thing about PC, and after all, it IS a way of life, and a philosofy. I´m no expert, but i have the philosofy in my bones since childhood, i´m walking... Something more specific i can say is that in my wondering i did a lot of research and what i found is the following: Organic Farming promotes the use of natural fertilisers, making use of the natural carbon cycle so that waste from plants becomes the food (fertiliser) of another. In organic farming however, as with ALL farming, minerals are being lost from the farm everytime a truck load of produce is carted to market. Permaculture goes one step further. Permaculture brings the people's wastes back into the cycle, it reduces the energy wasted in transporting the foods by producing the foods where the people are, in permaculture the people contribute in their daily life toward the production of their food and other needs. The Permaculture garden is more than an organic garden. · It is also responsible for its waste, it aims not to pollute the surrounding environment i.e. with either excess nitrogen into the water systems or weed seed into any natural systems. · It uses design to minimise the gardeners chores and energy input. Repeatative, hard work is the joy of few permaculturalists. · It aims to imitate nature. Visually this is the most noticeable difference between organic gardening and permaculture. In permaculture gardens (home systems is the more wholistic term) there is rarely bare soil, the conservation of soil and water is a high priority. There is a more complex use of space. Plants are allowed to set seed, are interplanted for pest control. You will be unlikely to see plants in rows · The permaculture system aims to harvest and maximise water, sun and other natural energies (e.g. wind, dust, leaves, bird droppings) · The permaculture system aims to provide nutritious food and habitat for people AND native animals and birds. In a true permaculture design minerals are not lost because they are cycled, same goes for organic gardening however, bags of organic resources may need to be purchased. In a permaculture design the cycle is hopefully, closed. we create the requirements of the system, setting one element near another so that natural forces such as gravity and wind etc can transport the waste of one element into the next element as a needed resource. We go one step more than organic really because we try to let nature determine the shape of the garden. The different use of energy is an important point.

Below is the info. that Floweraremusic (zone 5) in Washington gave on her 2020 winter-survival. She has alkaline clay with rocks at bottom like mine & less snow in winter: "My hardiest roses are the Canadians. John Davis, John Cabot, Wm. Baffin, Morden Sunrise, Morden Blush and Morden Centennial, Victorian Memory aka Isabelle Skinner, also a Canadian rose. All these only have tiny bit of tip damage and bloom a lot with no special care. Also, my Hybrid Perpetuals only have tip damage after winter. Magna Charta, Mrs. John Laing, Black Prince and Marchesa Buccella. The only negative is they don’t have long enough cutting stems. All my Austins are very hardy. The one I just can not grow is Jude. Leonardo da Vinci is super hardy and always healthy. Quietness comes through winter very well. Even Rouge Royale survives beautifully. Cinderella Fairy Tale is very hardy. Gruss an Aachen also. Ballerina and Marjorie Fair are both hardy. Poseidon, Princess Charlene de Monaco and Crazy Love didn’t do as well as I’d hoped. The surprise losses this year are Quicksilver, and Dames de Chenonceau who is left with only 1 cane. Versigny is also reduced down to almost nothing. This was a mild winter with very little snow. " Floweraremusic (zone 5). From StrawChicago (zone 5a with hard black-gumbo alkaline clay & less snow but with freezing rain in winter). Versigny didn't survive winter either. So I lost Versigny TWICE. Besides Versigny, other wimpy own-root roses that don't survive winter well: Paul Neyron, Anna's Promise, Pink Peace (own-root died 1st winter, but grafted-Pink Peace survives many winter), Elantyne, Jude the Obscure, Young Lycidas (bought as grafted-on-Dr.Huey, now with only one cane), Mary Daly, and many floribundas don't survive my zone 5a: Pink Chiffon, Sheila's perfume, King Arthur, Deep Purple, Shocking blue, Honey Bouquet (survived 1 winter). Polka Climber (survived 1 winter), Cloutilde Soupert (died twice on me). Sutter's Gold didn't survive winter, same with many fragrant mini-roses from Burlington nursery. Below are my hardy OWN-ROOT roses in my zone 5a alkaline clay, only Double Delight, Young Lycidas and Lavender Crush are grafted-on-Dr.Huey. Bold-faced are the very vigorous ones: Own-roots with 3 feet of green canes: Carding Mill (since 2012), Princess Charlene of Monaco, Duchess de Rohan, Crown Princess Magareta (since 2012), Zepherine Drouhin, Lady of Shalott, James Galway, Lavender Crush, Queen of Sweden (gave away but very hardy), Poseidon (right below the rain-spout, dug down to 2.5 feet), Scepter'd Isle (very big & hardy own-root but gave that away with its lousy scent). Own-roots with 2 feet of green canes: La Reine (many winters), Blue Mist (since 2012), Prairie Harvest (since 2014), Mary Magdalene (since 2011), Evelyn (since 2012), Radio Times (since 2011), Pat Austin (since 2011), Christopher Marlowe (since 2011), Golden Celebration (since 2011), Lilian Austin (gave away but very hardy), the Squire, the Dark Lady, Wise Portia survived 4 winters but died in poor drainage clay, Dee-lish (since 2015), Twilight Zone (since 2016), William Shakespeare. 2000 (since 2011), Comte de Chambord (since 2012), Princess Anne, Sweet Mademoiselles, Aloha climber, Orchid Romance, Bohemian Rhapsody, Marie Pavie, Lagerfeld (since 2017), Frederic Mistral survived 2 winters but died when I didn't winter-protect with leaves, Sonia Rykiel (survived 3 winters) but died in freezing rain winter, same with 1/4 of the street-trees in my neighborhood, Excellenz von Shubert (since 2013), Own-roots with less than 1 foot of green canes: Gina's rose, Tchaikosky (since 2015), Cornelia (since 2018), Bolero (few winters), Peter Mayle, Sharifa Asma, Neil Diamond, Amber Queen, A Shopshire Lad, Strike it Rich, Old Port (since 2012), Veteran's Honor (many winters), Double Delight (grafted on Dr.Huey), Savannah, Tess of d'Uberville, Gene Boerner (since 2014), thornless Yves Seedling (since 2013), Stephen big Purple (since 2012), Louise Este, Mirandy, Crimson Glory, Liv Tyler survived 1 winter but needs winter-protection, Rouge Royal (bought last year with no winter-protection). Annie L. McDowell (survived 2 winters but needs a wet-spot since it's almost thornless), Nahema (survived 1 winter then died during freezing-rain winter), same with Eyes-for-you (drought-tolerant and doesn't like freezing wet winter), Souvenir du President Lincoln, Madame Issac Pererie and Madame Earnest Calvat, Firefighter (survived 2 winters) but died since it's next to tree. Bayes Blueberry (survived many winters but I gave away), Charles Darwin (gave away since it fades badly), Arthur Bell (since 2012 & killed it since I don't like the flowers). StrawChicago.