Is your current fridge a french door model with an in door ice dispenser? These fridges are popular but essentially they have a second freezer in the refrigerator door to make the ice. Especially in older models the manufacturers didn't put enough insulation between the icemaker and the fridge which caused a lot of problems with both the ice maker and fridge temperatures.

Stan Z, my Kitchenaid french door does not have a door ice dispenser. The ice maker is in the bottom freezer drawer. The Kitchenaid rep that last serviced it told me the fridge was not meant to be more than half loaded...which makes no sense to me. Something wit the design and lots of air flow in the back needed. That's fine, until I have a party and the top shelf items freeze!

Stan Z, every old fridge my mom, in-laws, or I had (white basic fridge) was fine being overstuffed on occasion. My MIL's Sub Zero is 15 years old and a champ with this. My KA is a failure in this regard, and I want a fridge that can handle the occasional party overload.

I feel like I can weigh in on cooktops. I've had gas and Wolf induction (unit was 5-6 years old, so I think there have been improvements over what I had). I like both. I use a lot of cast iron, so the induction was fine for me. Just use the magnet trick and see if they stick to your pans.

As far as use goes, I'm planning to go back to a full 48" gas rangetop this time, simply because I want more space, and honestly, I just like the flame. I'm planning to go with BlueStar or Capital.

That said, a good friend is planning on an induction range, because she does NOT like the open flame aspect of gas. It makes her nervous (she acknowledges this is a bit irrational). She is getting induction for the responsiveness as she hates her old electric coils.

I'm not sure that one is "better" than the other. I felt a little safer with my kids cooking on induction than gas, but we are using a basic gas range now, and they are learning. I say try both out if you can, and choose what works for you. I don't think you can go wrong either way.

Side note if you decide to break up your cooktop and ovens - I had the Wolf E series. I never self-cleaned it because I was afraid of the blue interior flaking. It never baked as evenly as I hoped it would, and the control panel was starting to be glitchy at only five years old. I would not buy them again, and I am planning to use Bosch this time around.

Dishwasher: Bought a Miele Excella in 2008 from the local/regional "high-end" appliance store: it cleaned like a champ, glass didn't get the "frosted" look, I liked the many different cycles, it was user-friendly. Six months ago, an error message appeared on the panel and it would not complete a cycle - this lead to three failed repair attempts by the original store, about $900 to fail to repair it, more $ spent on plasticware - and finally the store "replacing" my Miele with a "new" Thermador.

So, the Thermador (made by Bosch) is the lowest model, Emerald, and I'd rather have a dishwasher from 1990 that is loud and has that hot element at the bottom - because those actually CLEANED dishes. This Thermador is mediocre at best. Dishes at the very corners of the racks DO NOT get clean, the butter knives are always streaked and have residue. Yes, I've tried different detergents. It's not the way I load the dishes, I perfected this "art" with my Miele.

We are in the process of building a new house and have picked the highest GE Monogram. I'm hoping it will be easier to repair if problems occur.

Stay away from Thermador. The Miele was awesome, until it broke and could not be repaired. Good luck.

AboutToGetDusty, I wasn't saying not to purchase high-end, just that all appliances regardless of where they fall in the range experience issues. And that duel compressor fridge or double 60" range with three ovens, french top and salamander... or whatever, has a whole lot more components to go wonky. I managed great appliances just under $12k eleven or so years ago. Hell, if I were to start that from scratch today I'd likely be looking at a $30k+ budget. At least a 48" range top instead or 36, then the bigger hood, built in fridge (just because) - and there's $30k. But I shouldn't expect worry-free performance. 14 years reading peoples' appliance trials and tribulations on this forum shows us that.

mastiffmom: Sorry! I did love that Miele until it couldn't be repaired. Maybe if you go with the entry level model, it may not be a hassle. My mom has new Bosch (not entry level) and loves it. Thermador dishwashers are Bosch, so I can't figure out why the one I have isn't very good.

Theremador and Bosch are sister companies, but the items aren't always identical.

Mastiffmom, I think Stevep is a bit cynical--there's a lot of truth in what he says, but with a more negative than neutral twist. Don't be scared. I don't know anything about the bottom of range Miele, but if "entry level" means the more commonly seen mid-range with fewer options, it'll be fine. Same with the Bosch with the crystal settings.

A lot of the performance is really based in the detergent and surfactant you use and your water composition, rather than the mechanicals, assuming you're starting with a good dishwasher. My Monogram from about seven years ago is only so-so. The good news is that the dishes get dry without liquid rinse aid, which makes my glasses taste soapy. The bad news is that on the settings where it does so, it doesn't clean very well. It does fine on ordinary gunk, but not particulates or hard gunk. I don't mind the extra attention to scraping if it means the dishes are dry. I HATE hand drying dishes that have been though the DW. Curled up edges is one thing. Wet is another.

If you use Miele tabs, you may even be able to cut them in half, and they should get your loads very clean. Alternatively, you could try Finish Quantum or the new Cascade equivalent packets. Those are engineered to provide enzymes that eat gunk. You just have to leave gunk for them to eat. And you have to use rinse aid (though it might be provided in your packets) or the dishes won't dry. The surfactant breaks the surface tension of the water drops and makes them fall rather than clump. Both the Miele and Bosch should be fine if you're using the right stuff.

As far as repair issues go, any brand can have an oopsie, and all appliances with digital control boards have a reported average life span of seven years. That means that some last for a shorter time period. It's smart to make your choices with repair/replacement costs in mind, or plunk down the money for an extended warranty. I generally think extended warranties are just a money making scheme for the insurance companies, but they're easier for a lot of people to wrap their heads around than the idea that their brand new kitchens will keep costing them money down the line.

Abouttogetdusty, the old fridges worked differently. They had ongoing cold and warm spots, and that affected how people used them. It's easy not to notice that your fridge has trained you, but you know where not to put the lettuce lest it freeze and where to put the milk so it doesn't sour. Better fridges, nowadays, circulate air to keep the temperature stable, which keeps the food fresher, longer.

With my Miele 30" all fridge, if I really squish it overfull, it can freeze. It holds just as much (I just had a five course sit down for three dozen) if one makes sure that the vents at the top aren't blocked and that the air channels between the edges of the shelves and the walls aren't overlapped and blocked. That extra quarter inch doesn't actually make it hold more. Being careful about arranging and rearranging to give it a fair chance means that the kale that wasn't used a couple of weeks ago is still fine. There is a valid argument to be made about potential vitamin loss, but it still looks, feels and tastes fresh. And didn't freeze even when it was squeezed in on top of the milk with the parsley and other greens, and falling on my head now and then.

All appliances have quirks. If you can find the line between quirk and annoyance, you'll know how low you can take the budget.

Theremador and Bosch are sister companies, but the items aren't always identical.

In the case of the dishwashers, though, they are.

As far as repair issues go, any brand can have an oopsie, and all appliances with digital control boards have a reported average life span of seven years.

Source? And what exactly is meant by lifespan? Is it, on average they last 7 years before needing a repair? Or, on average, people are replacing them after 7 years?

Disagree with this as well. Have cooked a lot in both, and haven't gotten better results with bread or meat in a gas oven. Don't get me wrong, gas ovens naturally make a nice dry heat which is great for some things, but with convection you can also get a good drying effect in an electric oven.

Just to clear this up for others reading. Gas ovens are considerably more moist than electric ovens which are quite dry. Not the other way around as someone said above. Dry (electric) is good for cookies and some other baking, Moist (gas) is good for meats and breads (some people do prefer dry electric for some breads).

We've had dinners at a number of people's houses who had $10k appliance packages and the food was often very wonderful and just as good as that at homes with $50k appliance packages. I think the difference is that you just need to be a bit more careful with what you cook as, for instants, lower heat producing burners can't sear, sauté some things, or stir-fry as well. For a meal that doesn't require these then there's really little difference.

Higher end appliances may reduce day to day frustration though. They should be more reliable (with emphasis on 'should') so less down-time and repair headaches. May heat water faster. Might have things like Miele's Masterchef that can be useful. A larger range w/ more burners might make project mgmt easier when preparing some meals.

I've had low and mid range appliances. In recent years, I've started cooking, baking, and entertaining a lot more. Thank you all for your advice. Obviously there is no clear-cut answer, but you have all given me food for thought as we decide if going high-end will make our lives easier!

Gas ovens are considerably more moist than electric ovens which are quite dry. Not the other way around as someone said above.

This is absolutely wrong and a common misconception. Intuitively, it makes sense. Burning gas produces moisture, while heating up an electric doesn't, right? Well yes, but that doesn't take into account the fact that the air in a gas oven is being replaced much more often due to the much higher ventilation rate to support the combustion process. So that extra moisture is canceled out. Meanwhile in an electric oven, there is much less air exchange with the outside, so moisture gets to build up more than in a gas oven.

I'm curious about any documentation you have for that. Every chef I have talked to about it as well as people at Miele and Wolf (who have both introduced humidifiers for their electric ovens so that they will cook similar to gas) that I've asked about it have said the exact same thing - electric ovens are quite dry and gas quite moist.

My own experience is similar. We've had a gas range and electric oven for 25 years. Consistently we've found meat and breads to come out better and moister in the gas range while cookies and some other baked goods to come out better in the electric (even without convection though convection certainly helps even things out). That is the reason that we, like others, have each because they serve different purposes.

Why would you want moisture for roasting? You want dry heat for the best browning. This is why they recommend convection for roasting, it's a very drying, browning heat. It helps seal in the juices so counterintuitively, drier heat can lead to a moister roast. Dryness also helps with getting a nice crispy crust for bread. So your experience with the gas oven isn't inconsistent with the science. I haven't seen any marketing materials from Miele or Wolf claiming their steam ovens cook like gas but I wouldn't be a surprised if a salesman got it wrong. It certainly wouldn't be the first time one didn't know what they were talking about.

I'm far from an expert but it kind of seems its you against the world. Everything I've read, everyone I've talked to (including numerous chefs), and my own experience says the exact opposite of what you're saying.

I'd really like to see some documentation if you have something.

Hvtech, that's backwards. Moist is used for crisp chicken skin, a nice crust on a beef roast, crunchy artisan bread, etc. These are things I make all the time. For "artisan bread", or any other crusty kind, you use a steam oven, or put a pan of water or ice in a regular oven, to get a crunchy crust. Crunchy crisp chicken skin happens at 60% steam. My brown and crisp turkey skin and moist inside requires trimming out the excess fat and steaming with a bottle of wine in the bottom of the roaster, steaming away.

Searing requires dry. Seared literally means dried. It is also a fallacy that searing seals in the moisture. The food scientists have done experiments. Searing makes it seem like that's true because the crust is so dry, but all it does is dry and harden the outside.

The gas for roasts tale is an old one. While it may be true that gas is no longer the moister option, the reason for wanting a moist oven has not changed.

Opaone, you're right. A good cook can cook on just about anything, especially given some practice. The difference between a cheap oven and an expensive oven should be more accurate and even heating, better insulation, and more control. Those are certainly true of my Gaggenau oven, which still has a quirk, but is far and away worth every penny I put into it (the pair were the foundation of my remodel and all other budgetary considerations were subsumed to them). OTOH, when I was young and lived in the boonies, abroad, and only had a double LP gas ring to cook on, I was able to make delicious foods and even bake lovely cakes and (bar) cookies in a (cheap) special pan for the purpose.

The one difference is the steam oven. Sure, you can steam dumplings fine on the stove, or spinach in the microwave, but I have NEVER had steamed squash--just plain yellow summer squash, patti pans, etc., cut into chunks and cooked in the combi-steam until just tender--that were as amazingly delicious. If you can't imagine having your socks knocked off by squash, try it if you can. It's a revelation. This combi-steam better outcome is true of other vegetables as well. I don't know why and can't even hazard a guess beyond possibly a more controlled environment or more evenness of steam. When you just put an ordinary vegetable/fruit (squash is a fruit, really) in to cook, plain, no seasoning or sauce or anything else, and it comes out mind-blowingly AMAZING, there's something special about the oven.

For other things, including the crisp chicken skin and crunchy bread crusts I mentioned above, there's an old fashioned way of doing just about any steam oven task in a regular oven, just needing more attention and effort.

I am a trained chef and currently have all GE cafe appliances. We are getting ready to do a kitchen reno and get all new appliances. We have been researching for about a year and here is my two cents. Everyone I know who is a baker prefers an electric oven for more consistent results and everyone I know who cooks a lot will say nothing but gas will do for the rangetop. I love my dual fuel. I was going to get the 48 inch range but as much as I love the look, the double ovens are just so convenient and functional (especially with all the nice new pull out shelves), that I have to pick function over form. So I am getting a 48 inch rangetop and double oven. The new combi steam ovens look amazing. I bake all my bread from scratch and these are suppose to be amazing for that among other things. Blue star by far wins hottest burners if that is important to you. They have a different burner style than most ranges though so you should definitely go in person to understand the different burner styles. I was told by multiple plumbers that dishwashers these days use so little water, that they aren't really designed to clean that well (3 separate plumbers told me this) also that refrigerators these days make a lot more noise than in the past. Also look in to what appliances you can easily get serviced in your area. You don't want a random plumber working on your 10,000 dollar fridge. Also look in to opening and closing the doors on the fridge. Some of those doors in the professional appliances are so heavy I couldn't imagine opening them multiple times a day. Also many don't come with water dispensers in the door (a major issue for me). Thermador always has the best deals with their free item incentive they offer. They may not be a Wolf or Bluestar but most people don't need a wolf or bluestar. I use 5-6 burners nightly when I cook so for me this makes sense, but really think about how you cook every night and what things are most important. Kitchen aid gets consistently bad reviews and I would definitely not purchase any of these. Also counter depth refrigerators that are built in have a much higher end appearance. GE monogram even makes one that is rated highly and thousands less. Go to lots of stores and ask lots of questions. Always remember though many workers at appliance stores will try to sell brands they make the best margins on.

plllog - does your steam oven significantly increase your water bill (assuming plumbing makes the steam)? Also, if I like to bake and cook equally, would I be happy with just one steam oven? Is the moisture contained, or is there a potential problem with warping nearby cabinetry over time? Can you broil with a steam oven? Convection roast?

The Wolf steam oven's water tank holds four cups of water. I don't see how that could possibly affect your water bill.

They have options where the water is plumbed and options where you add water to it each time you want to use the steam option. They have some that just do steam and ones that do steam and convection (so it will be usable as a full second oven which is what I would recommend). It works great for vegetables, breads, cheesecakes (or anything where you would use a water bath). It also is supposed to make leftovers taste as good as when you first made them. I am scheduled to go do some tests on them this week but from what I have been reading, they say they will be standard in a cook's kitchen very soon. The steam is inside the oven so there should be no issues with warping. It doesn't take much water to produce steam in such a compact area so I can't imagine it would really affect your water bill much. I like to bake and cook equally. I will get one standard and one combination steam oven which should be plenty for all the entertaining I do.

Before this conversation, Jerry, I never heard of a steam oven. I assumed plumbing was hooked up. That's not the case? Do you have to refill the four cups of water often? Just trying to figure out how it works.

Thanks, ethancremepie. Makes sense. I ask only because my when my neighbor installed an underground sprinkler system, her water bill quadrupled. So now when I hear of extra plumbing, I like to ask, just to be prepared.

It's as Ethancremepie says--several options. I just used the tank size as an example because it would have to hold at least enough water for one lengthy cooking session. One that is direct plumbed is more convenient, but wouldn't use any more water per cooking session.

Hvtech, that's backwards. Moist is used for crisp chicken skin, a nice crust on a beef roast, crunchy artisan bread, etc

Why does moisture make bread more crispy? Don't get me wrong, moisture is a really nice thing to have for baking bread, but dryness is as well. Dry heat at the end of the bake crisps the crust, which is why I suspect people like their gas ovens so much for bread. Moisture can be manually added at the beginning of the bake to help with the rise in a drier oven.

I have personally played around with this stuff a lot, I love homemade bread and have the Kitchenaid steam assist oven which has tons of cycles and programmable options. When I run the "Bread Auto Steam" cycle, it adds a bunch of steam at the beginning, and then backs off so that the bread finishes in a dry oven with the convection fan on. It seems like the dry heat at the end is key to the formation of the crispy crust.

Same deal with meat. I've tried adding steam when roasting a chicken and it doesn't do a better job with browning than a regular oven. In fact, when I select "Poultry Auto Steam" it jacks the oven temperature way above my setpoint at first, and this is where most of the browning seems to happen. Then the temperature comes down and it adds steam. The end result is fine in terms of browning, but presumably the increased temperature at the beginning was to compensate for reduced browning once steam was added. I've actually stopped using this cycle as I don't understand what the point of the steam is here.

Crunchy crisp chicken skin happens at 60% steam.

I don't doubt this, but I think it's in spite of the moisture, not because of it. Your steam oven has a convection fan, right? I'm sure that helps a lot as well. I notice that browning is significantly better even in a regular oven when I use convection, and I know that's dry heat.

Searing requires dry. Seared literally means dried. It is also a fallacy that searing seals in the moisture.

Sorry, I worded that sentence badly. You're absolutely right, the idea that searing before you roast locks in the juices is an old wives tale. I'm not talking about searing, though.

How moist a roast ends up has nothing to do with the moisture of the oven, it's all about the internal temperature it's cooked to. My point is that roasting in a drier environment (gas oven or convection) leads to faster browning (this is why the manufacturers advertise convection as cutting down cooking times) and when the food is removed, the internal temperature at a given level of browning will be lower than in a less dry oven, leading to a moister roast. This is why you often see manufacturers advertise convection as "sealing in the juices" although I think it's a bit of a misleading choice of words.

Moral of the story is that choosing the right internal temperature and oven temperature will be much more effective in improving the quality of a roast than adding steam. A drier oven will help you get more browning without overcooking (and thus drying out) the meat.

The gas for roasts tale is an old one. While it may be true that gas is no longer the moister option, the reason for wanting a moist oven has not changed.

Gas and electric ovens have both worked on the same basic theory of operation for the past 50 years, everything I'm saying here was just as true back then as it is today. The main exception is the addition of convection, which has helped put electric ovens on a more even playing field with gas ovens regarding dry heat.

I don't know the science, but my chicken skin is much crisper in the steam and so is bread crust. When I make the same kind of chicken in a non-steam convection oven (other people's houses), I put liquid in the pan to steam it. I don't have an auto steam cycle of any kind nor any automatic settings. I set the ovens, they don't set me. I have found that the moisture helps with the crunchy crust, but makes no difference in the oven spring for me.

I don't know about manufacturer's recommendations. I just cook. I also don't know about speed of browning. I believe you on the convection making it faster, but in my experience, it's only an issue where there's a bad bounce in my big oven in one particular configuration and one corner gets a double dose of hot air. I don't cut cooking times for convection. My roasts are always juicy. What you say about that may be true, but I have no facts either way.

My current electric oven retains much more moisture than my old gas oven, though previous electric ovens have been far drier than the gas. I thought you had also pointed out on another occasion that the moist/dry thing had flipped.

I just know what works for the cooking. I don't have enough physics to say why. Perhaps it's to do with the external (to the item being cooked) vs. internal steam.

I have used the convection for drying--Kenji Lopez-Alt's 36 hr. chuck sous vide which is finished in a not too hot oven to dry out and develop bark. It didn't get crisp, however. It just got dry and hard. The second time, I sloshed some low sugar homemade barbecue sauce on the meat before putting it in the oven. It came out crunchy but cutable and not hard. Less dry. So, I'm thinking you're right about the drying ability of convection, but that moist environments still lead to good crunch.

That may be the crux of it, actually. The dry environment leads to hard dry crackly crisp. The moist environment leads to lovely crunchy but not hard crisp with a little give. But that doesn't explain why baked goods like a dry oven to be soft, and it's more than I want to tackle right now.

We have gone a little sideways here, at least where bread is concerned. Steam is a key player in bread baking, and most professional bread ovens have steam available at the push of a button, but for promoting a thick crispy crust, steam is added only in the first two or so minutes of the baking process.

In bread baking caramelization of the sugars as the surface approachs 325f That initial burst of steam causes a thicker crust to form on the surface. Continuous steam would never allow the bread's crust to dry or other processes to move forward.

Steam ovens are expensive and professional bread ovens are impractical. There are several methods of getting that initial steam which don't involve investing in a steam oven. If you want a steam oven just for bread, I would first make sure you look into what other steam cooking you might want to do frequently.

In bread baking caramelization of the sugars as the surface approachs 325f That initial burst of steam causes a thicker crust to form on the surface. Continuous steam would never allow the bread's crust to dry or other processes to move forward.

Thanks for the explanation, this answers my question "Why does moisture make bread more crispy?" So I guess the moral of the story is, both moisture and dryness at the proper parts of the bake are important to getting a good crust.

This only applies to bread though, not meat. I'm still not convinced, both by what I understand of the science, and my personal cooking experiences, that a moist oven helps with crispy skin and/or moist interiors on roasts.

And I stand by my statement that gas ovens are more dry than electric. It seems pretty clear to me from basic intuition that the most important variable affecting the moisture of an oven is how much air escapes. Much more important than how the heat is produced. When you add steam to any oven, it's pretty obvious that you need to avoid opening the door so the steam can stay inside and do its job. I used to have a gas oven, and when I baked bread, I tried to add moisture manually, and it always seemed like a losing battle. The water would just evaporate and then fly out the vents. I mean, just take a close look at a gas oven and an electric one side by side. The vents on the gas one are so much bigger, allowing much more air to escape.

In Paris where the best bread in the world is made, they use steam ovens. That's how they get the famous crust. All the best bread makers in the U.S. try to replicate this. There are many ways to replicate this (chains and lava rocks, super soaker guns etc.) but these are only a copycat and never work as well as an actual steam oven.

Talked to a chef friend today very specifically about this. He said that commercial oven manufacturers developed hydro-vection (sp?) systems for electric ovens to approximate the cooking environment of gas ovens*. All proteins (meats) were a problem in electric ovens prior to this. The skins would dry out before the interior was cooked properly and the interiors were dryer than they should be. To remedy this they were having to use lower temps than desired which fixed the sunburn problem but still reduced caramelization and left the interior even dryer.

This humidificaiton worked quite well and even better than gas so it was added to commercial gas ovens. This eventually led to an increase from just humidification to actual steam which many commercial ovens have the capability of today.

* Interesting side note: There are many communities, islands in particular, that do not have readily available piped gas supplies and many commercial ovens will not work with propane so electric is preferred from that standpoint.

A full canister of water in my Miele combi=steam will last about 2 1/2 hours or so when cooking at 90% moisture. It will notify you if you need to refill it.

"opaone

Just to clear this up for others reading. Gas ovens are considerably more moist than electric ovens which are quite dry. Not the other way around as someone said above. Dry (electric) is good for cookies and some other baking, Moist (gas) is good for meats and breads (some people do prefer dry electric for some breads."

To clear it up you have to produce credible data or at least a rationale for why you believe that. What is the humidity in a gas oven and what is it in an electric oven? How does adding food affect these numbers?

What you are saying has been commonly taught even to this day and yes there are appliance websites that say this. I believe this was taught because people were looking strictly at the heat source. They did not consider these other factors.

-the humidity from what you are cooking, which according to Nathan Myhrvold(Modernist Cuisine) is largest contributor to humidity

-the construction of the oven chamber which may tend to hold the humidity or let it go.
-the cooking process as a whole.

I started questioning this when I was reading what people write as their observations about cooking and reading about the science behind a few cooking processes. It didn't add up.

Some of things people say frequently on cooking forums and this appliance forum-"Gas heat is better for roasting because things brown better (or are crispier)". They might even attribute this to "the moist heat of a gas oven".

The observation is true but not the rationale. You have to look at why things brown. The Maillard reaction and caramelization are two of the chemical reactions that contribute to browning. There must be an absence of moisture on the surface of what you are cooking for this to take place. Crispiness is the same way. You have to have dehydration superficially to get crispiness. Humidity/steam inhibits these reactions. You can eventually get superficial dehydration in spite of steam by air movement and heat. Think of cooking a big turkey where you have a big tray of drippings that are boiling and steaming but eventually it will brown but it takes longer.

"Gas heat makes meat moist on the inside".

Meat's internal moisture is determined by the end temperature. You can submerge meat in water and boil it dry on the inside. The website "Amazing Ribs" has some excellent information on the physiology of cooking meat. I think the meat is juicier because it browns quicker and is perceived as done, quicker and so not over cooked.

Breadbakers on some of the baking forums say they have a hard time keeping humidity in a gas oven. Some have gone as far as blocking the vent. If you have used both types of ovens, I think you can feel the difference in the kitchen between the two, as I have had the two different types in the same kitchen, more than one. Some people going from electric ovens to gas complain that their cakes set prematurely. This is is because of the big vent hole on the back of the oven designed to let the byproducts of combustion, one of which is H2O escape. You have more air movement which increases evaporative loss of H2O and removal of that H2O. I will say when you first turn on a gas oven you may have some visible condensation but it disappears as the oven heats up and air currents are established. Yes there are plenty of people who bake cakes in gas ovens because there are more variables than the humidity and if you have gas you will over time keep recipes that work in gas. People who switch from electric to gas would be more likely to notice this.

"Electric is better for baking"

This is a common sales pitch and some would make the case for more temperature stability in an electric oven but looking at the process of baking you can see how the humidity of the baking chamber is important for different types of baking or even different parts of the baking time for one product. It is key to understand starch gelatinization.

This is a good article and picture that illustrates what steams track gelatinization will do. This is maximum steam and then dry heat on the right.

The humidity in the oven provides water for the starch to absorb and in the presence of heat it thickens. This will affect the crust on your bread and even cakes. If you can prolong this time by a more moist environment, you will have a little bit longer time to rise. Electric ovens have much less venting so are able to hold on to moisture from what you are cooking. It's very common with bread to add water to steam for the first half of baking and then you want dry heat for the second half to increase browning. Gas ovens will vent the moisture out but with electric you can open the door to vent the steam and turn the convection fan on for drying--> browning.

"opaone

Talked to a chef friend today very specifically about this. He said that commercial oven manufacturers developed hydro-vection (sp?) systems for electric ovens to approximate the cooking environment of gas ovens*."

I can't see anywhere that hydrovection was invented to approximate gas ovens. Here is some info about them. They were trying to imitate a combi oven and so be able to have very moist and very dry environments.

https://www.sefa.com/blodgett-responds-to-cooking-s-o-s-with-hydrovection-oven/

"All proteins (meats) were a problem in electric ovens prior to this. The skins would dry out before the interior was cooked properly and the interiors were dryer than they should be. To remedy this they were having to use lower temps than desired which fixed the sunburn problem but still reduced caramelization and left the interior even dryer."

I don't know about "all proteins were a problem in electric ovens" because I have cooked plenty of proteins in electric oven over the years and they came out. Could you define the term "sunburn" in this context?

What you describe with this chicken, illustrates what I was saying above. The meat, the actual fibers, are overcooked, expelling all moisture so the fibers are dry first on the outside and then on the inside as heat is transferred before they can superficially dry and brown. This sounds like they were cooking at too low of a temperature from the beginning and then went the wrong way with even lower temps. You have to balance and get more rapid superficial evaporation before the meat releases all of the moisture. Think of stir frying or searing steaks. High heat quickly dries and allows browning. If the heat is too low, you get stewing and the longer you leave it on the heat, eventually all of the moisture is expelled from the meat fibers before the outside can brown.

"This humidification worked quite well and even better than gas so it was added to commercial gas ovens. This eventually led to an increase from just humidification to actual steam which many commercial ovens have the capability of today."

What do you mean by "humidification worked quite well"? What changed in the way it cooked?

I think the evolvement of the process went the other way. Steam cooking is an ancient concept and steam ovens came into being in the 1700s. The ovens used for baking bread were probably the first commercial steam ovens. My BIL had a bakery and has used steam injectors in gas ovens for many years. The problem is if you have strictly steam ovens, they will cook faster but they don't brown. This is why they developed combi ovens so that you could have drying heat to brown. The Hydrovection is a more recent product by Blodgett. Hydrovection ovens are a lot more than just adding humidity/steam. It gives much better control of the baking environment.

-by allowing increments in 10% from 0-100 units of added humidity. I would guess this to be a fixed volume of water to be injected rather than the actual percentage of humidity or you would have some sort of program and way to measure humidity and the vents would open and close and water would be injected automatically to reach that number.

-you can choose whether the vent is to be open or closed

-settings allowing convection fan to vary fan speed and reversibility

There are some great videos over on YouTube that show how the Hydrovection is used. French Fries and meat were cooked using just 10% of water. Bread started with the maximum possible amount of added steam for a couple of minutes and then dry fan with the vent open to help remove the humidity so dry heat-->browning and crispiness. Cookies and pastries were baked with no added humidity but the fan was used.

If this type of oven came available in home kitchens, the importance of gas vs electric ovens as they are now would diminish. You could control the wetness by adding water at will and choosing whether or not to vent. You would also have much better control over dryness, with fan speed and direction of air flow.

As much as I hate that the OP was derailed by the gas/electric battle of misinformation, thanks wekick for clearing up several inaccuracies that were driving me a little nuts.

Sorry it was so long.

Thanks for the information wekick.

Wekick: "To clear it up you have to produce credible data or at least a rationale for why you believe that."

I'm a journalist and photographer, not a chef, engineer, or scientist. For data you'd need to talk to the manufacturers or outside organizations. I'm simply relaying what is consistently stated by pro chefs and others including CIA and and that has also been my experience over the past 20 or so years - gas ovens provide a higher moisture environment than electric ovens. You even said yourself "What you are saying has been commonly taught even to this day..."

Let's take a quick stab at rationale though. Your and hvtech42's argument is that the exhaust on a gas oven exhausts more H2O than is produced by gas combustion - in other words, it exhausts all of the H2O produced by gas combustion and some bit of that produced by the food in the oven resulting in an environment dryer than that in an electric oven. This makes somewhat good sense, though does go against pretty commonly held beliefs, as you said so yourself. How much H2O is produced per minute by combustion and how much of that is exhausted per minute?

On our AG Wolf range there is no perceptible airflow from the oven vent behind the range top. There is a bit of heat, and it is moist, but it does not appear to be forced air of any sort, only natural rising of hot air. Definitely some bit of air exhaust/exchange is happening. Is more H2O being exhausted than is being produced?

You are the one arguing against pretty widely held conventional beliefs. I'm genuinely interested if you or hvtech42 have something behind what you are saying.

I pretty well laid it out why it doesn't make sense to me. Just because it has been a long time belief does not make it true. Think how many old wives tales have been debunked in cooking.

"Your and hvtech42's argument is that the exhaust on a gas oven exhausts more H2O than is produced by gas combustion - in other words, it exhausts all of the H2O produced by gas combustion and some bit of that produced by the food in the oven resulting in an environment dryer than that in an electric oven. "

No, the gas oven only has to exhaust enough of the water produced by combustion and the food and the electric only has to hold onto enough of the moisture produced by the food to produce enough of a gradient to produce a difference in results. It might be 35% vs 65%.

The numbers about how much moisture is produced or exhausted doesn't matter here because by looking at what cooks seem to observe here and in many cooking forums and then looking at the Maillard reaction, caramelization and how crispness forms which we know about, I am drawing a conclusion that what we have believed doesn't make sense. When trying to understand why so many have believed that a gas oven has moist heat, the only thing you can find is about the heat source being moist, but nothing else.

I don't think these beliefs are as widely held as they once were although that makes no difference to me as to who else believes it. I work in health care and there is a lot of stuff people believe that just isn't true. With all of the books/websites on food science, anyone can read now about how these cooking processes work and draw your own conclusions.

Wekick, I appreciate your explanation. Hvtech was probably trying to say the same kind of thing, but I didn't follow.

Keep in mind, however, that as end users we don't care about the science other than as it aids us to do what we do better. Knowing, for instance, that caramelization happens above 350° F. making oven searing a good alternative, is useful to me the way that knowing that water boils at 212° at sea level (me), but less at altitude (camping).

From observation, I can say that yes, I agree that the moisture in a regular oven mostly comes from the food. And if you need more, you put it in. Also, my current electric ovens retain far more moisture/steam than my previous ovens, gas or electric. My Advantium is convection only in oven mode. I don't find that it dries out the food, particularly, but I can feel that the air in it is toasty dry. The reason, in my opinion, the Kenji 36 hr. chuck dried so much in the oven is that one was supposed to dry it after the sous vide and put it on a wire rack in a low pan. The suggested temperature was 25° lower for convection, but the method was the same without. In that configuration there was so much more hot air than moisture in the meat that it got a chance to get hard. The second time, with the bigger roasts, the single slosh of sauce--not dry--was enough but not too much to let the bark form without becoming hard. In general, wherever the moisture comes from, I find the crust on a roast is better from a moist oven. There's more to good than just drying.

OTOH, I think there's more going on with the chicken. Thinking on it, I think maybe the steam oven moisture helps render the fat from under the skin, which makes for hard, crunchy skin. Chicken cooked the same way without steam is nice, but the skin is much softer to the point of being flabby.

Re baking, one usually doesn't want much browning on cakes and cookies, but they're baked in a dry oven.

Etc. Etc.

I just cook. I make good food. In spite of what the theory is.

"Re baking, one usually doesn't want much browning on cakes and cookies, but they're baked in a dry oven."

My neighbor doesn't like browning of any kind so hates her convection oven. I like browning on cakes and cookies. Sugar caramelizing, yes please. A dry oven facilitates that. I have heard of bakers buttering and sugaring a pan to get more caramelization on their cakes. I was always afraid it would not come out so haven't tried that.

http://www.bakerpedia.com/processes/caramelization/

OTOH, I think there's more going on with the chicken. Thinking on it, I think maybe the steam oven moisture helps render the fat from under the skin, which makes for hard, crunchy skin. Chicken cooked the same way without steam is nice, but the skin is much softer to the point of being flabby.

Interesting theory. I don't know enough to say whether it's right or wrong. When I have tried roasting chicken with steam I didn't really notice a difference, but that could be for a million reasons. I have a different type of oven (not a full combi steam), or maybe I was using the wrong settings.

One interesting thing I noticed is that in their steam oven cookbook it seems like Wolf recommends roasting chicken in the regular convection mode, no steam:

http://www.subzero-wolf.com/-/media/files/united-states/product-downloads/sub-zero-wolf/ebooks/wolf-convection-steam-oven-print.pdf

Of course, there are a million ways to do it, and just because one manufacturer recommends this way doesn't mean it's the best way. I'm not trying to dispute your experience with steam roasting at all. I just thought it was interesting.

Wekick, it depends on what you're baking. A bundt cake should be caramelized because it's meant to be served naked. I can see the buttering and sugaring there, since the pan side is the top. For a layer cake or sheet cake, it's more important to have an even bake, especially in the middle. The top will be sliced off anyway, to make it level, so there'd be no point in going for the toasty and suffering with the doming, cracking, hard sides and unset middle, etc. Additionally, the toasty flavor doesn't always pair well with the filling. Butter cakes (in some regions called pound cakes, though in other regions pound refers only to quatre quarts) are usually baked around 325° for these reasons.

Some cookies are meant to be partially or wholey browned, and crisp or even hard. More are meant to be blond, both for presentation and tenderness. One usually looks for the very beginning of browning at the edges as an indication that they're set on the bottom and done.

Hvtech, my current go to, five minutes prep, roast chicken is butterflied on a bed of onion slices and baby carrots (and any veg that wants to jump in). The veg bed is old fashioned, but I figure if I'm going to use a rack, why not get some cooked veg out of it? They go well with the chicken, or can be blended into the juices for a sweeter, thicker gravy. I put "suntan lotion" on the bird. That's usually some sauce from the fridge, but the essentials are that it have some oil and some sugar. That also helps the ultra-crisp. Also some herbs and seasoning for flavor. That all is then steam roasted at 360° F with 60% steam. That comes from the clue wheel which was included with the oven--I agree that the maker isn't always right, but it comes out well so I stick with it. We like it cooked through, so for a 3.75-4.25 lb. chicken, it's an hour and a half. 5-10 minutes more or less if it's bigger or smaller.

The skin comes out consistently hard crispy and delicious, with lacy, lingering fat only at the very edges. Before the combi-steam, I was a devotee of the vertical roaster, whether beer can style with the well of liquid up in the chicken, or on a wire stand in a pan with some wine or other liquid in it. I have a rotisserie in my current large oven, and it makes good chicken, but it also makes a big mess of the oven, and it's no better than the vertical roaster chicken. I think I put wine in the bottom of the drip pan, but I can't swear to it. Both rotisserie and vertical make thin, crispish skin which goes soft again very fast. The vertical retains the liquified fat inside the skin until one cuts it, whereas on the rotisserie the fat runs out the holes that the prongs of the clips make and, according to theory, baste the outside of the bird. As I said, the results are pretty much the same in the end. Crispish, going soft. That's with or without suntan lotion. Salt can also help crispen skin, but I don't do that since we don't care for it to taste salty. I've done the same prep of a butterflied chicken in regular convection ovens with liquid added to the pan with the veg, and get a fairly similar result to the combi-steam, though with more fat clinging to the skin. This is where my surmise that the steam helps the fat render comes from.

Before I switched to sous vide turkey breasts ("Best turkey ever!" according to those I'm feeding and so much better doing all the work two days prior), I would roast a 20-ish lb. turkey. Most recently, it was on a turkey rack in a big roaster. The turkey was always too big for the lid, so I loosely tented with extra-heavy foil. Some roots around the bottom for flavor, and a whole bottle of white wine over the top to sit in the bottom and steam. Either a bread style stuffing, or just some tarragon twigs, and maybe a lemon inside. I've never understood why people's birds don't brown, because I never did anything to encourage it. It just happens. At 325°, I think, though I might have raised the temperature at the end, which would make sense, but I don't remember. Really good turkey. I liked it better in the eating than the sous vide, but since the guests like the latter and it's so much easier, bye bye turkey, and the flabby white nasty skin is removed during slicing.

mastiffmom, Bosch and Thermador are the same company along with Gaggenau being their highest end. Bosch makes great dishwashers, but Thermador makes better because they have water softeners in theirs (as long as you're not looking at the entry level model). Whether you have a water softener in your home or not, it helps with spots and drying because they do have condensation drying. You'll also notice that no brands advertise how long their cycles are and that's because they all have a turbidity sensors which test the water for food molecules to know when the dishes are almost clean to stop the cycle. You've probably noticed something similar with your laundry machines when it says 20 minutes left and you come back 10 minutes later and it says 15 minutes remaining. My favorite dishwasher is the Thermador Star Sapphire which has a light inside, a water softener, a third rack designated for cooking utensils, double coated nylon racks that won't chip and rust, ball-bearings on their racks, and a cycle that guarantees a 20 minute clean time.

As far as induction goes,

Induction is the best possible cooking surface currently available. Bosch makes all induction elements for everyone so it really doesn't matter what brand you go with. Gas was known as the best cooking surface and electric on the bottom- which is why most brands make dual-fuel, but induction now is officially better. It is more energy efficient and has an instant heat because they're using a magnetic field to heat. As far as needing special pans, that's not necessarily true. If you take a magnet to your current pants and they stick, you can use it- they just have to be magnetic. My personal favorite induction top is the Thermador Freedom (or the Gaggenau version if you want it to be completely flush in the countertop) which has no designated elements and pans can be placed anywhere on the cooktop.

As far as refrigerators go,

Sub Zero is the absolute best. Their refrigerators focus on food preservation and they use technology that NASA uses. I always recommend those to people with second homes so they don't waste money on food by throwing it out before leaving for months on end.

^^^^^ rs this true?

Sherri, Which part? The above post is strongly worded and opinionated, but factually it's fine, except that I don't know about the NASA part or why it is relevant or the particular features of the DW. I don't doubt it, just don't know it. Some caveats: Miele DWs also have built-in water softeners and many features their adherents adore. The Freedom induction cooktop has some limitations, though it is very flexible. If I remember right, you can still only have four pots, and there are generally prescribed control areas. You don't have to match up to a ring, however. If your pot moves while you stir, the field should follow. "Best" is an opinion. Many of us agree, but there are pluses and minuses, and some people just like flames. Recently, I've spent some time cooking on an old top of the line coil stove. It really does cook fine. I think think bigger issue with coil is cheap coil.

While induction will make a pot that holds a magnet get hot, there are shapes and compositions of pots that work better on induction than others. My old favorite pot, both on coil and gas, was a Le Creuset "soup pot", with sloped sides. The sides caught a lot of that waste heat, and it cooked very well. On induction, too little of the mass captures the field, so it takes longer to heat up, and is slower to react to changes in the power level. My new favorite is another Le Creuset which I've had as long, but was my least favorite before. It has vertical sides and a much wider flat bottom, which works better on induction. I have an old stainless finjan which cries if you put it on the induction. Some cooktops might not even recognize it because it's small and inferior steel. Mine does heat it, if one can overlook the screams. Rather than torture it, I only use it on gas (I have both). Most people do end up buying induction ready pots at some point to take best advantage of the cooktop, but I agree that you can still use your old pots that hold a magnet.

I haven't seen any data comparing SZ to Miele or Liebherr. They're all known for their designs for keeping food fresh--three weeks rather than three days. That has implications for the nutrition of the food since vitamin content of produce, so I've read, starts dissipating when it's picked. Still, I wouldn't leave anything fresh in there for months! Jam and mustard, maybe. But I don't think you need SubZero for that.

All of these are quibbles for the purposes of discussion, not a slam on Adrianna's post.

^^^^^ rs this true?

There is some truth to it, but I wouldn't rely on it too much for your appliance research.

Both Bosch and Thermador have dishwasher models with and without softeners. If you want a softener it's a matter of looking at the specs for the dishwasher you're interested in, not buying a specific brand. Thermador dishwashers are the same as Bosch with a higher price tag for the same features, I don't see why you would buy a one unless you were getting it as part of a package.

Induction being the best is subjective. Personally, induction is my favorite as well, and I suspect the advantages of induction outweigh those of gas for most people. But to not mention any of the advantages gas has over induction (yes, they do exist) really limits the usefulness of the post. You can't just say that induction is "officially better" than gas. As for Thermador Freedom - yes it's cool, but is it really worth the money, especially considering that you can only use 4 pans at a time, while much cheaper cooktops of the same size let you use 5?

SubZero being the best is, again, subjective. The NASA thing is true, they wouldn't be claiming it in their marketing if it weren't. Whether it makes a practical difference in food preservation, though, is less clear. The idea is that ethylene emitted by some things in the fridge will cause other stuff to go bad, so if it can be filtered out, that will slow the process. The science behind this is solid, but it depends on the SZ air circulation system and filter being effective at capturing the ethylene, which hard to tell without testing. I would love to hear results from an SZ owner who's interested enough to test the filter. Additionally, the dual evaporators in a SubZero should lead to higher humidity in the fridge and thus, food lasting longer. But SubZero is hardly the only one who has this feature.

Plllog, I was just commenting on this

"Re baking, one usually doesn't want much browning on cakes and cookies"

Of course there are exceptions but this is subjective.

"Plllog-The top will be sliced off anyway, to make it level, so there'd be no point in going for the toasty and suffering with the doming, cracking, hard sides and unset middle, etc. "

I do trim off some cakes that I will ice but that is the "cooks treat". ;-)) I haven't had any of those issues you describe but I have heard some say they have, if they use convection for baking a cake. I use it at the end just for browning. The cake has risen and set by then.

I think there are a lot if people interested in cooking science now. There are so many books that sell pretty well. I like to think about why things work the way they do and it is interesting to think about why your chicken gets crispy and I would assume brown, in a 60% humidity setting. I think the fat is important both the fat put on the skin before cooking and that which is rendered. Food chemists say that you must have dehydration of the skin for browning and crispiness to take place. In the oven there are three ways that moisture can be removed from the skin.

The first two are evaporative and very superficial. They are also slightly cooling to the surface.

-Passing air currents -we know a fan evaporates sweat.

-humidity-lower humidity increases the rate of evaporation and higher humidity reduces the rate of evaporation like we would notice on a hot humid day. I am not sure what the 60% setting means on the oven. It would be hard to imagine that they have the technology to assure 60% of saturation so I think it must be a setting with a fixed amount of steam added. It might still allow a fair amount of evaporation.

The heat from the oven also brings the water in the skin to boiling point so it escapes as steam.

The fat comes in because it makes a barrier on the skin. This would reduce evaporative loss of water but it allows the water as it is heated to escape in a burst of steam when it reaches boiling but provides a barrier against reabsorption of the water vapor.

"sherri1058

15 hours ago

^^^^^ rs this true"

Anytime someone says "absolute best" or "best possible" ....well that's why we have this forum and there are lots of different cooks with different needs and opinions. There are many valid choices.

Yes, the skin get brown. I agree that the fat is important, as is the sugar. Old cook's tales. One of the things that one wants in a crisp skin or crust is give. I'll reread your post when I'm more awake. I don't know how they achieve 60% humidity. I just know that the setting works.

There are a few classic breads that are known for thick, hard and flaky crusts, like a certain kind of French boule. They usually also have very lacy crumbs. These are great for people who really only want crust, the crunchier the better. They're usually not very brown. More a mid-beige. There are also some classic, hard and dry crusts, like on the old fashioned Mexican bolillo, which always was a deep toasty brown, when I was young, and stiff, but soft and white in the middle. Nowadays, the bolillos I see are almost indistinguishable from French rolls, much paler and with a leathery but not hard crust. The French roll crust is the one it seems most people like, golden and chewy, with just a bit of crunch.

My whole grain daily bread is moderate humidity and baked in a terracotta banneton with no steam in the oven. It has a very firm crust, but not flaky crunchy.

I get the making browned and caramelized cake tops because you get to eat that part when you're levelling. :) That's an individual twist rather than the basics of how to bake a cake. :) Most cake fails are from too much heat and/or uneven ovens. (I've had few fails, mostly from when I had a dying oven with a totally uncontrollable temperature.) When people say they have problems with baking cake with convection, my first thoughts are that either the convection evens out the temperature in the oven too much, making it seem hotter meerly by being at temperature, or that they're positioning their cakes right where the reflections are and they're getting double whammied by the hot air. Moving the rack and cake could help, but finding out where the quirks are can take some time. All of which is moot if just leaving off the convection makes a nice cake though I think convection helps the middle cook.