vaporvac - I've had 2 Cloud10s. The first one was so wimpy with tiny little flowers and never climbed. The second one started out the same but I fertilized it more and since it never stopped raining last year it seemed to like that better and actually put out several 5' canes. It does not BS at all! The flowers hang on a long time but they will get dirty looking with tons of rain. But it has very little foliage and I cannot detect any fragrance. I put it inside an obelisk and I think I should have wound the stems around the outside and it might look better. At the time I was thinking deer protection since they were roaming the gardens all night but they reached right in and helped themselves.

I saw someone's photos of Spirit of Freedom - possibly bayareagirl? And fell head over heels for that full, globular form in pretty pink. I planted it in February in a prime spot on my front step trellis to hopefully mingle at the top with Veilchenblau which is on the other side. I thought I had seen where it gets to 10-12 feet (which is what I want), but then somewhere else said 8-10 feet. I hope that's wrong. For once I want the DA rose to grow big! It's got a long way to go...just leafing out now at 1 foot tall.

I would presume part of it is merely marketing to generate sales and to pad the ever shrinking catalogue. I agree that the way they used to do it (which was simply stating "may be grown as a climber" makes more sense and is less confusing for the general rose buying public. Hopefully someone else with longer term experience may contribute, and the climate and microclimates in which you and other gardeners reside can make a huge difference, especially with the Austins. Other than the Knockout marketing tribe, I personally believe that there is no other group of roses (or nursery and its practices) that generate as intense differences of opinion as David Austin's "English roses". Several gardeners in places such as California experience them growing huge and rampantly often at the expense of producing good bloom/repeat bloom. Folks in places such as New York seem to appreciate their growth and floriferousness because the harsh winters and lesser sunlight limit their growth potential. Same for various diseases. For me, they do come down with black spot, but virtually everything does here to some degree, and they ARE more disease resistant than any typical gaunt wimpy hybrid teas here. May we inquire to your garden's general location? In letting us know, then you'll know whose opinions and experiences will most closely reflect your possible results. I have heard that Austin roses truly do take a good five years to settle in and perform well, but my one Lady Emma Hamilton on Dr. Huey seems to be dwindling here in the cold north after about seven years, The Ingenious Mr. Fairchild initially seemed to take off, but the winter of 2016-2017 was very hard on my roses and he sort of petered out, but we'll see how he does this year. My Gertrude Jekyll from 2016, and Munstead Wood and Lady of Shalott of 2017 actually are putting on size (slowly after over three years) and my Chianti on Dr. Huey seems to be taking off very well. I suppose patience would be a key word, and I don't always have enough of it! Steven

I second Colette. I had it a long time ago, planted it in between two bigger plants where it was shaded, and since it didn't do well I tossed it out. Had second thoughts after seeing Diane's plant and bought a new one own root. It is a couple of years old now, at the top of an arbor, getting prettier all the time. It has a nice growth habit...sends out smaller branches along the vertical canes. Blooms a long time. Is very pretty indeed and fragrant. Very healthy. For a peachy/ pink blend I like Elie Beauvillain.