Thank you for sharing bpathome. I am a pilot wife and pilot mom. I have a different perspective than many.

Maire,

Before 9/11 at least, it was a point of honor to be "'last to check-in at the boarding gate.' among my colleagues. Only losers with nothing to do got to the airport early, silly, when you could have squeezed in one more meeting. We did a lot of running. Plus there was the Masters of the Universe rental car return trick, whereby you pull up to departures, lock the keys in the car, and then call the car rental place and say "oh sorry, I accidentally locked my keys in the car... it's at United departures". BAER

It has gotten less insane, but even today the only people I know who show up x hrs in advance are my elderly in-laws. I would bet there is a correlation between high revenue passengers and cutting it close, which is why they might not bump that way anymore.

Beagles - love the Burger King bit!

ETA P.S. as for suing, not everything bad that happens to a person is actionable. I am curious to see what causes of action they pursue.

Mtn does that rental routine actually work? Do you get charged anything? What if the rental car is ticketed before someone from the rental company comes to get it? #askingforafriend

ahahaha beagles.

Wow. That comment. "Sir, I'm telling you, this will get way worse."

Honestly, the stuff he was saying, I probably would have said similar if they told me I had to get out of my paid for seat on an airplane!

Just read that doc has lawyered up. That was fast.

I understand that he was actually trying to call his lawyer while all this was happening. And I'd definitely get an lawyer ASAP too.

Honestly, the stuff he was saying, I probably would have said similar if they told me I had to get out of my paid for seat on an airplane!

https://mobile.twitter.com/JayseDavid/status/851784560367063040/video/1

I agree with robo. He seemed pretty reasonable to me.

It looks like Munoz earned $6.7 last year. Truly, it doesn't seem like enough money to run a $20 billion high-risk publicly traded company.

You hear on robo's link the doc commenting that his lawyer said he didn't have to disembark. That is one lucky lawyer. S/he will make more than Munoz.

Oh for God's sake. Government to the rescue to fix everything.

#IfYouLikeYourAirplaneSeatYouCanKeepYourAirplaneSeat

Hope we all enjoy our more costly airline tickets if this passes [which it hopefully won't, thanks to who controls the house].

How about the market and existing legal system take care of this, thanks. Seems to be doing just fine.

But why didn't they ask questions from him and people nearby before treating him roughly? They might have only been told to get him off right away but why the brutality? Because he ran back to his seat? No one seems happy to be on or work on a cramped plane and I can understand the frustration. The whole airport experience is not so good. Seeing someone innocent getting bloodied up and dragged is probably the thing that tips the scales for some people who hate the experience anyway.

He ran back to the plane after they knocked him out. It seems fair to assume he wasn't in his right mind at that point. Before that he was sitting in his seat and refusing to move. As far as I can tell all his irrational behaviour (except refusing to leave the plane when told) happened after he was knocked out.

Oh Mtn - you'd have to include me with the losers who check-in early! lol Something in my DNA has programmed me to be early for everything - including childbirth - the last was a scheduled C section however DD decided to come a day early. But I can easily see where business travelers who fly frequently have to squeeze in meetings would be rushing to the plane. I'll keep your elderly in-laws company at the gate.

Maire

I think this all comes down to arrogance and it is arrogance in certain markets that have produced new, innovative companies for consumers. Uber, for example -why have they been successful? Taxi companies have long been arrogant enough to think that customers should just put up with long waits, cabs that don't show up, and filthy cars. Nowhere is this more apparent than the airline industry. Unfortunately, for the time being, new vendors cannot just pop up because of the cost of entering the market. And the little competition there is among the existing vendors is made even less significant by the near constant mergers and acquisitions. Ugh. And like someone else said, I think United is at or near the top of arrogance. I have often seen airline people speak to customers in a patronizing, schoolmarm manner, much like a crabby kindergarten teacher might speak to a student. I've had to use a lot of self-control myself not to respond in kind when I've been treated this way. "Ma'm, take your seat, and you'll know what we know WHEN we know it!" -after we'd been left waiting with no information for over an hour on a delayed flight.

In this situation, the first arrogant mistake they made was not going to the max offer to open the seats up. Who knows, that may have solved the problem. Instead, they randomly chose four people to exit the plane. The first three got off, not happily, but they vacated their seats. The fourth person responded, "I cannot leave. I'm a doctor, and I have patients to see in the morning." Would it have killed the pilot to ask to see the man's credentials? And once they knew that he was in fact, a doctor, pull another name? I'm not saying unequivocally that the next person would have gone voluntarily -who knows? But it would have been a respectful way to treat the passenger. In general, treating people with respect and empathy goes a long way in any business.

Here's a video that was taken just before the incident...The person didn't seem threatening. I was thinking that he probably was acting calm and rational...

Have any of you seen the spoof with Adam Sandler? I don't have a link, because DH just showed it to me this morning. He's just asking a flight attendant for some headsets and the whole thing escalates with a beefy air official coming into the scene. Pretty funny.

IMO, the guy on United was wrong when he tried to re-board. I guess if I were confronted by a guy with a badge, I would comply & try to sort it out, but that's just me. I think that's pretty much what the pilot's wife wrote. I don't think it was right to take 4 people off the plane to begin with when they could have tried to up the ante.

He only tried to re-board after he had been knocked unconscious so it's likely his brain was not functioning properly.

It's unbelievable. On the press conference the lawyer said the man has a broken nose, a concussion and two front teeth knocked out . Sheesh!

The only reason I can see to treat a person like this passenger was is if he had & was threatening with a weapon. It would have been a lot cheaper for United to have a helicopter bring the employees to their destination.

It is appalling to me the victim blaming that goes on after an incident like this. It doesn't matter if the passenger was totally insane or a convicted criminal. He was sitting in his seat after being allowed to board, minding his own business. And breaking the "rules" or not when he refused to leave the plane, there was absolutely no reason to use force on him.

It is appalling to me the victim blaming that goes on after an incident like this.

It's not just victim blaming either, it's also this idea that you should not resist authority and just comply and do what they tell you to do.

Um, no. You have a legally valid right to resist an unlawful order. I'm seeing mixed opinions on whether it was lawful for United to order this guy off the plane like this or not. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't.

But if the guy is telling the truth and he called his lawyer and the lawyer told him to stay put, then he probably thought he had a legally valid reason to be where he was. So he should have just let them do what they wanted, despite that?

Yes, compliance is the path of least resistance. But if it's just assumed you must comply even with unlawful orders, authorities usurp more and more of our rights.

It is people with means and easy access to legal services (like doctors), who are generally the least apt to defy authority but who perhaps have the greatest moral obligation to do so because they can fight, unlike people who are lacking in social capital.

This is probably an over-reaction on my part, but the first thing I thought of when I saw the video and then read about the incident was that the last time I checked, the US was not a police state. Because this is how it starts.

I remain disgusted, as I'm sure most of you do. We may not "officially" be a police state, but the all-too-frequent abuse of power and irresponsible use of physical force by some "enforcement" goons is indicative of something very, very wrong in this country.

I'm also disgusted at the implication that the doctor's past has anything whatsoever to do with this incident. He was sitting in his seat, refused to vacate his seat, and was then physically assaulted in an effort to get him to comply with an unreasonable "order" that none of us would expect to receive once we've bought our ticket and have boarded an airplane.

Airline travel is painful enough as it is, even on a good day. I've come to expect surliness and outright rudeness from the TSA, and can't even tell you how many times I've had to literally bite my tongue to keep from responding in like manner to uncalled-for disrespect. And that's even before one gets on the plane. Astonishing to even think that something like this has happened.

At least we're getting some good comedy out of this.

(Of course the US has always been a police state for some types of people.)

I think certainly the resentment that economy passengers feel at the routine disrespect, rudeness, inconvenience etc. probably fuels a lot of the fire. It's a vastly different experience flying business class with TSA precheck. There it's barely tolerable. At the economy level it's pretty much unbearably unpleasant. And I think the oligopoly is the reason it continues. There isn't meaningful competition and yes, the industry has not yet been disrupted - and security theatre means we can't even complain in meaningful ways.

Yes, the fact that it is now an oligopoly, and in some cities a monopoly, indicates that maybe market forces alone may be insufficient to incent appropriate minimums standards of customer ... I cannot even call it "service" ...let's say "treatment".

I agree Robo, and the NYT had a piece in a similar vein, pointing out that "We ... live life as consumers. And our treatment is both increasingly disrespectful and reflective of our society’s growing income divide. In 2017, it often seems that the customer is the least important part of the transaction — unless he or she is paying top, top dollar."

We fly a lot, mostly first or business. The thing I hate most when for some reason we end up in coach, more than the actual seats, more the entertainment, more than the food (which once in a while is actually good in first and is at least edible) or the lounges, is the way the flight attendants treat people in coach. They are dismissive at best.

By contrast, in first, they make small talk, they engage you and your family, they help you with your things, and they seem to care about your needs. Is that really too much for any customer to expect?

Mtn That is a pretty broad statement. I am friends with many airline employees and they are hard working people. I fly frequently and find if you treat someone with respect you are treated the same.

Married to an airline employee I know the inner workings of the industry. There are no holidays or weekends for the crews. Every day is a flight day. My husband missed many holidays, birthdays and school functions to ensure other families got to their destination safely. Yes I know he could have chosen another line of work but being a pilot is almost chosen for you. There is a love of flying that most pilots share and they could never work in an office. My son is now a pilot also and as much as my husband didn't want him to be in the same profession my son was bitten hard by the flying bug on his first introductory flight. He is in his early 20's and I am hopping he has a safe and productive career. He absolutely loves the flying and can't imagine himself anywhere but in the cockpit of an airplane.

I've never flown first or business. I'm not that frequent a flyer but I haven't noticed especially bad treatment from flight attendants. They have a lot of folks to attend to, so I wouldn't even expect small talk. I've encountered very friendly and pleasant ones, even in coach. It's not their fault that the food sucks or is absent altogether.

I would think being engaging and seemingly caring in first or business would be part of their job. The number of customers they have to deal with is far less, and, let's face it, generally the more you pay, the more they will "like" you and treat you well.

I think a lot of this behavior from the airlines started after 9/11 when security became very tight and they were empowered with a lot more authority.

ETA: Seems like slowly be surely a lot of scenarios outside of the relm of terrorism can have you removed from a plane and I don't think that used to be the case, at least not as much as it is now.

I usually fly coach, and have always felt that the flight attendants have been very professional and friendly. I can't remember a bad experience. Honestly, I don't know how they do it, I know I couldn't.

I never ever make waves and have had a variety of experiences with flight attendants, never rude but certainly the gamut from barely polite to very friendly. It's the whole experience from lining up and being herded through security (and yelled at if you misstep there) to uncomfortable and crowded departure lounges with insufficient seating (looking st you, O'Hare), ripoff food pricing, lining up again to board by zone, herded again past gate staff, insufficient overhead space now that there are charges for luggage, no leg room, no space, the hell of having the middle seat in aisles narrower than city transit, being delayed 8-10 hours and getting in to a strange city well past midnight, being stuck on the Tarmac without air conditioning, getting in another hundreds-long line through border control, being yelled at in line there, etc etc. It's just generally unpleasant and aggravating. I do it because it's also a miracle and I love to travel, but the flight is almost always the worst part of the journey.

I was flying coach from Tel Aviv to JFK on El Al. Talk about a cattle car. When we landed a couple way in the back of the plane decided they just had to get out before anyone else and came barreling up the aisle all self-important and entitled. One substantial female flight attendant blocked their path, read them the riot act and sent them back to their seats. The rest of us were very grateful.

In general I don't blame airline employees for the bad stuff. It's not them. They have a crummy job to do and mostly do it nicely in my experience.

The overall system sure sucks though.

On the bright side, no more smoking!!

I take things with a grain of salt. As long as I get to where I am going in a timely fashion, all is good.

Side story: As we were walking to our seats, DH happened to notice a milk container.

When it was time for coffee, we were offered powdered creamer! DH asked for milk and when the attendant said they only had the creamer, he put his tray up with out saying a word turned and looked out of the window.

She came back with milk and said that she wanted to keep the passengers happy.

We were flabbergasted that only first class was entitled to milk for their coffee.

generally the more you pay, the more they will "like" you and treat you well.

Paying for a different service should logically get your different benefits, of course. But I think everyone who is a customer deserves to be "treated well". That is what bugs me.

In general I don't blame airline employees for the bad stuff. It's not them.

I heartily agree. In fact, in most cases where I have a gripe with a company it is about the company's policies and not about the individual. I always make a point to make that distinction clear in any interaction. In most cases people are trying to do their jobs and do them well, but they too are mistreated and/or not given enough staff or resources to serve customers or just asked to carry out bad policy.

I don't want to leave the impression from my earlier post that I arrived at the last minute to the flight I almost didn't get on. I cleared security, walked to the gate, and checked in well before boarding was to begin. There was no rushing at anytime. I just happened to be the last one there. I had, almost mistakenly, assumed that since I had paid for a seat on this plane at this time that there would be one for me. I think that was, and should be, a reasonable assumption.

Almost makes me glad that DH refuses to fly. I'll probably never see Paris but we have a lot of fun getting to our destinations. 10 hours driving in a day? No problem.

My experience with flight attendants has been mostly positive as well. (I can really only think of one that was outright unpleasant to passengers.) They are hard working and the vast majority remain cheerful and professional, in spite of often having idiots onboard. I'm amazed at the stupid things that passengers do. On one of my last flights overseas, during takeoff there were a couple of people who kept popping up from their seats and making their way to speak to others seated in different rows (obviously travel companions), in spite of requests to remain in their seats. A male flight attendant finally yelled at them to REMAIN SEATED AS INSTRUCTED, and I wanted to applaud him for his assertiveness. There just always seems to be someone onboard who is completely ignorant of flying protocol, or else thinks the rules don't apply to them.

From today's NYT:

CHICAGO — In an hourlong news conference that touched on race, policing and airline manners, a lawyer for the passenger dragged off a United flight on Sunday listed his client’s injuries: a broken nose, a concussion, two knocked-out teeth and sinus problems that may require reconstructive surgery.

“For a long time, airlines, United in particular, have bullied us,” the lawyer, Thomas A. Demetrio, said Thursday in downtown Chicago.

“Are we going to just continue to be treated like cattle — bullied, rude treatment?” asked Mr. Demetrio, who placed the blame for his client’s injuries on a “culture of disrespect” at United Airlines and overly aggressive tactics from Chicago aviation police officers. He said a lawsuit was likely.

The video of Dr. David Dao, 69, of Kentucky, being bloodied as he was pulled off the flight in order to make room for four United employees has ignited conversation and outrage around the world. The three Chicago aviation police officers who removed Dr. Dao from the plane have been placed on administrative leave.

After initially defending the airline’s policies, United’s chief executive apologized. United has offered a refund to every passenger on the flight and has promised to no longer have the police remove passengers from planes that are too full.Photo

An apology from United? I would expect nothing less, and I would've thought their chief exec would've had the good sense to remain silent instead of defensive at the outset. Reprehensible actions bear consequences, and I have a feeling the monetary and reputational damages will not be insignificant.

I really do hope that this guy's very bad day will lead to improved air travel for everyone.

United has offered a refund to every passenger on the flight

Between this and the settlement they'll end up paying and the bad PR this is one expensive lesson. Good.

My son does crises management for a living. He's VERY glad that United is not his client.

United's CEO really got off on the wrong foot.

Well, comedy certainly replaced outrage.

Luckily there had been passengers on that flight with cameras to memorialize the incident.

The wedding couple who were removed from the United flight for changing seats on an empty plane sure wish passengers had been around to record their peaceful disembarkment...

The wedding couple's story sounds fishy on every level. I'm so glad it didn't gain much traction. I think they tried to pull a fast one on United, thinking they'd easily have them over a barrel what with the recent viral fiasco.

You want to sit in better seats? Pay for them.

Someone is sleeping across your assigned seat? Ask for assistance from the Flight Attendants.

That's what I do when I see someone passed out across an aisle of seats during the very hectic and totally not peaceful boarding experience!

I agree mimipadv. I was not really buying the wedding couple's story when I first heard it. I was thinking exactly what you said in your third paragraph -- get assistance if someone is in your seat.

Those 2 were full of carp! THEY deserved to be (non-violently, of course) removed from the flight. Sit in your own damn seat! If you didn't pay for a better seat...IT'S NOT YOURS! If those idiots had delayed MY flight to the Caribbean, I'd drag them off myself! I hate people who try to get something for nothing.

What I find interesting is that people will whip out their cell phones to record a wrong doing, but will not get involved in any way to stop that wrong doing. What if every able bodied passenger on that plane had stood up and blocked the aisles in front of and behind the victim? It would certainly have stalled the departure, but a passenger would not have been beaten.

Maybe people who witness an event need to work together to help when someone in "authority" tries to do one of us harm.

I've thought about that chispa. "What would I have done?" I like to think I would have acted as you describe - stood up and refused to allow it to go any further. Years ago I stood up to a mounted police officer who was beating a young man (who was not in the right but didn't deserve a beating IMO) with a baton. I was yelled at and ended up with blood (not mine) on me but I was glad I did it. Could I do the same today? I don't know. I like to think I could.

Excellent observation, chispa. One person could have made the difference; if they spoke up & stood up, others may have joined in the physical protest of the behavior & actions of the airport security.