I would leave them as they are; in a few years they will get somewhere near the size you want. It takes a while for young trees planted in the ground to develop enough roots to begin stronger growth. Where do you live? That could account for part of your problem. The "semi-dwarfing" rootstock that Four Winds used to use was Cuban Shaddock, which in ground will eventually result in a good sized tree, but in containers has a notable dwarfinng efffect. I think Four Winds has now changed their rootstock; but they are reluctant to say what it is.

I can replace them now and know for sure the trees I plant will bear enough fruit in a few years that I will be tasting it. And I can still keep these in containers, possibly to give as gifts to those without as little space as I have. I am in inland San Bernardino Ca. Lots of stone and pome fruit that I have started from bench grafts or bare root along with a kumquat, fuerte avocado, and Washington navel that were on the property when I purchased it. I knew four winds hasn't divulged the new root stock but it seems most people assume it is flying dragon. There is no vigor to it in my soil.

Fourwinds is a fantastic nursery, but I suspect the ultra-dwarf rootstock they are using for their citrus may be having compatibility issues (plants not surviving in some cases).

Any time you use dwarfing rootstock there is some trade-off in health and vigor of the plant, and Fourwinds may be pushing the boundary a little too far. Although if someone absolutely wants a dwarf citrus, they are are good place to buy. (Or you could just keep pruning the tree to keep it small, but that's too much maintenance for some people).

I am not a big fan of 4 Winds rootstocks, however I think your issues go beyond the rootstock. I have lots of 4 Winds trees in the ground and they all have shown significant growth. In many cases that growth has been very fast.

First, 4 Winds rarely, if ever, uses Flying Dragon. Their rootstocks in the ground are considered semi-dwarf. They used to be mainly Cuban Shaddock, however I have heard rumors that they are moving away from that rootstock.

Second, I think you should take a very close look at your watering and fertilizing habits for your in-ground citrus. As I said above, my in-ground 4 Winds trees in general grow quite fast. Make sure you are not under or over watering. Are you fertilizing enough? In ground citrus can tolerate quite a bit more fertilizer than in pots. Is your soil too heavy (e.g. lots of clay)? Do you need to use an acid promoting fertilizer for alkaline soils?

The only time I have had issues with 4 Winds trees is planting very young trees (e.g. 1-2 year grafts). I find the trees do best when they are 3-4 year grafts. You definitely should be seeing significant growth in 2 years, even with 4 Winds trees. See one year of growth on my Kishu mandarin:

One year of growth on Kishu

-Brett

Buy semi-dwarf trees from Durling nursery. They are who stocks Home Depot and Armstrongs in SoCal with their citrus trees. Most of my trees are Durling semi-dwarfs and are about five years in the ground from 5 gallon pots. They average 6-8 ft in height / width so far. Durling uses Trifoliate for their semi-dwarf rootstock fwiw. I can't recommend them enough, they have been in business for nearly 100 years and know their stuff.

Four winds uses a trifoliate hybrid for its dwarf rootstock. They would not tell me what it is. Contact 4 winds by phone and ask what to do. They will know more than any of us will. don't dig the trees up. If your trees were on flying dragon you would be one very lucky citrus'er.

6b Steve

I could easily be wrong about the flying dragon. It's a fairly common dwarfing citrus rootstock as I understand. I could also be making mistakes with watering or ferts. With 26 fruit trees on my property, 22 of them planted by me and all growing fine, you can see how I would suspect the root stock.

And I don't blame four winds for putting out bad trees. They are healthy, and put out blooms and new leaves. They just don't grow like I wanted. As I mentioned in my original post, they might be perfect for a container grower, the grower that four winds markets to.

Brett, both my trees are the size of one of your kishu branches.

There is no citrus rootstock that is better in pots than in ground. Not even close even if the tree is on its own roots. Get new trees on more vigorous rootstock and grow them in containers. If your yard lends itself to a pallet mover you can grow them in a 4FT by 4Ft Versailles planter You will be happy.

6b Steve

Fireballs, I too have issues with that persnickety Cuban S. rootstock in the ground. For me, the CS rootstock is not cold hardy enough compared to Mac, Carrizo, Volk, and C35 plantings... and so the CS is banned from all my future plantings.

I have a Moro on CS in a reasonably protected area and it took two years to get traction. It is now is 8 ft. tall. I too was in the same zone as you - thinking to remove it and replace with another Moro on C35 or Carrizo... but I've decided to keep it.

I have three Orangequats, two Tavares Limequats, and a Meyer on CS as well. Two of three OQ's are in decline and one of those is comatose. One of the Tavares LQ's graft failed and now I have the CS rootstock producing CS fruit - while the other is comatose. The Meyer and one of the OQ's upper rootstock section was severely damaged in the 2013/2014 freeze and both have large areas of the trunk that are dead and being grown over. The Meyer on CS will be composted and replaced soon, the OQ leaned over the past week as the root system below the freeze damaged portion failed structurally.

Having said all that, bringing CS fruit to tastings is entertaining!

- George

Why would 4 Winds be reluctant to saying what rootstock they use?

tibean,

It is entirely possible that Four Winds may have a proprietary rootstock that works well for them and they don't want to make it public. Let me give you an example... when I first "discovered" the Macrophylla in Guatemala, I didn't know what it was, but I knew it was very resistant to droughts, floods, diseases and produced a big crop of fruit every year with virtually no care at all. I thought I had discovered a potentially new and vigorous rootstock, that might in the end make me more money than my Meyer lemons. Alas, I soon enough discovered from the experts that it was not new, but merely something that I didn't know about. It is now my rootstock of choice for my 35,000+ Meyer lemons, so it was a valuable "discovery".

35.000 Meyer lemons! Wow

But i think i read in another post where you recommended using systemic pesticides on lemons. So i hope i wont be buying any of those! lol

We use systemic insecticide (imidacloprid) and systemic fungicide. There is no detectible residue in any of our fruits; but more than that, the systemics don't kill the beneficials that are so important and who work for free. Virtually all the commercial growers in California, Florida, and Texas use the same products.

Huh? Doesn't imidacloprid kill the honey bees? If not, i'm sure it has some effect on them.....

Here is a link

EPA Assessment of Imidacloprid

Imidacloprid killing the honey bees is a total fabrication; but that is a subject for another discussion

Thanks all for the info and comments, I'll be replacing these two mandarins with trees purchased at costo once their citrus comes in.

I emailed Four Winds a couple of weeks ago asking about root stock on the kishu, owari satsuma, gold nugget and meiwa kumquat. I promptly received a nice email in return stating that "Those are on a c-35 rootstock."

Hi everybody,

Rootstock selection will change from variety to variety and dwarf and semi dwarf rootstock should always perform better in the ground then in a container. A nursery may not want to disclose what rootstock they use because they
feel that information may give their competitors an edge, though
generally they will tell you. In Cali everything needs to be registered if it is to be propagated commercially, so getting a name should be easy. As I just mentioned roostock selection varies but there are several rootsotck that I always stay clear of, one of them in particular is the flying dragon.

To be completely honest I see almost no advantages to using flying dragon or almost any of the true dwarf rootstocks. I prefer a semi dwarf rootstock like the C-35 or Rich 16-6. They function well in containers and in the ground and have few graft incompatibilities.

Before you buy your citrus trees you should do your research. We are talking about something that you should have for years to come and give you great pleasure during that time. Buying a cheap tree on a whim will likely give you headaches instead.

Also on a side note, even though Imidacloprid is considered to be 'safe' by the USDA (Ha!), there are many studies finding that Imidacloprid does affect bees and is one of the contributing factors of CCD. In 2013 the EFSA released a report proving this and stated: "neonicotinoids pose an unacceptably high risk to bees".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imidacloprid_effects_on_bees

My in ground trees from 4 Winds grow very slow. I've had better luck with the semi-dwarf citrus that costco carriers (not sure the wholesaler).

**Update to my original post**.

I have transplanted my kishu that was showing almost no growth into a large container (Roughly half a wine cask) and it has doubled in size this summer. I can't explain the reasons it is now flourishing but am happy with the results. I had purchased a gold nugget and meyer lemon from Costco and planted them in ground where the kishu came from and have seen no growth all summer so I suspect the soil there is poor for citrus. I didn't fertilize them yet. Having killed some roses by fertilizing them too soon, I let the citrus roots settle and grow all summer and will start fertilizing next spring around bud break for my other fruit trees. I just wanted to update this thread to absolve fourwinds of any wrong doing. It was my technique evidently. Odd because there is a mature Washington navel orange just 20 feet away, and a line of stone fruit the other direction that are also doing well.