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brianknight1

Functional Fire Inside a Home?

Springtime Builders
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago

In response to reader questions from Cp's thread on fireplaces I'm offering more thoughts on the paradoxical relationship of indoor combustion with current homebuilding practices and best options for those facing long term power outages.

I'm not a fireplace expert but have similar conclusions with many in the home performance industry that all-electric homes are safer and healthier for indoor air quality concerns. Tight homes are increasingly being required by law, a very good thing, akin to R-values and weather resistive barriers. The tighter you build, the more difficult it is to exhaust combustion. Just as building tight gives you control over comfort and moisture, control of combustion and it's pathway out offers better performance. Control is the idea behind tight homes and safely burning stuff inside.

There are many that require back-up for power outages but I think most don't. Asking neighbors can be a good way of gauging outage lengths. If using super insulated building envelopes or implementing passive solar design, you could probably ride out the most severe weather and outages in most climates without any backup heat.

If it's not for outage backup, and you simply need a space heater or extra capacity, mini-split heat pumps are tough to beat for their safety and life cycle costs.

For extremely windy, cold and remote sites, backup is necessary and woodstoves reign supreme for most budgets. If you can find the right mason or have deep enough pockets, a properly built masonry heater would be nice. I don't recommend building traditional fireplaces but John Gulland's Woodheat.org and hearth in a house as system is required reading for designers implementing chimneys. The successful fireplaces in tight houses from woodheat is a great overview with pictures.

Most direct vent fireplaces in N American homes, are horrid on many fronts. If I'm going to introduce added health risks to my family (and future families) I want real wood, not the dirty fuels extracted by fracking, which contaminates the drinking water of even more families. Yes, that's my unromantic vision of what people should see in the pretty (petty?) burning flames of propane or natural gas.

As an occasionally used, backup heat source, direct vent fireplaces should have battery backup for ignition. How effectively they heat without power running the fan, seems highly variable. The more they resemble a woodstove (heated mass fully inside insulated, airsealed space) the better the heating performance.

Direct vent fireplaces are infamous energy wasters because of their negative impacts on the building envelope. Holes and cracks introduced by appliance and installation leak all year round, hurting energy performance in winter and summer. Most chases interrupt insulation continuity and installers are nervous about air sealing connections with "hot" exhaust vents. I suspect manufacturers see this air leakage as a good thing for reducing backdrafting and avoiding liability. It's a very bad thing for consumers.

Backdrafting is the daunting challenge faced by the fireplace industry and hope this thread sees action in regards to the amount of risk introduced by direct vent fireplaces. Contrary to manufacturer hype, direct vent fireplaces are not sealed or airtight in regards to the vents nor the appliance itself (combustion chamber included). Direct vent fireplaces are not backdraft proof and based on my limited research it's a little scary how the industry is regulated in this area. Choose wisely, inspect yearly or go without.

The more you use a direct vent fireplace, the higher the risk of backdrafting. The most important backdraft trigger to be aware of is the cooktop vent hood. You absolutely need a vent hood, it needs to vent outside (not recirculate) but try to keep it under 400 CFM. Don't expect a makeup air duct solution (required by code over 400 CFM) to save you from backdrafting. Fingers crossed tightly on current home with 1000 CFM fan..

Backdrafting can also occur in homes with exhaust only outdoor ventilation systems, windy conditions (vents facing prevailing winds at most risk), with dryers and bathroom vent fans. Oversized fans or multiples running at the same time, add risk. Improperly balanced HVAC ductwork can also suck in gas exhaust depending on situation.

With a few exceptions and contrary to Bob Vila, NEVER install ventless gas fireplaces while B-vents should join them as increasingly illegal and be decommissioned.

There are many interesting and appropriate alternative heating systems and invite others to share. Conventional backup generator systems can get as large and fancy as you can afford but to me, it's tough to beat the redundancy of investing in higher performing building envelopes and maybe some good passive solar design.

Thanks GW community for your continued tolerance and hope you found this either disturbing or helpful. Please include your questions and comments!

Comments (25)

  • doc5md
    7 years ago

    Question about chimney's... Are there any extra inherent problems with a multi-flue chimney?

    Springtime Builders thanked doc5md
  • One Devoted Dame
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Most excellent. :-) Thank you!

    The reason I requested this information was because I have family in Wyoming. They are 1 hour from the nearest town (population 200 -- does that make it a village? lol), and they rely on a wall-vented woodburning stove for quite a bit of their winter heating needs. It is crazy windy there, too, I am told.

    So I became quite concerned that burning wood inside the 100+ year old house was putting them at risk of backdrafting (but since their stove is vented through the wall and not the roof, doesn't that reduce/eliminate backdraft?). Not that they wouldn't burn the wood, even if they were aware of the risk -- It is very much a reality that they either accept the risk, or freeze to death, at times. Wind/storms can damage power lines, either directly or by throwing debris, and repairs can take longer than a day or two. Or three.

    Until very recently, it was a goal to move as many of the extended family up there as possible, necessitating the builds of 2 or 3+ new homes near her property. I have never owned a home with a fireplace, and since I'm currently in Texas, I had absolutely no intention of including one in the plans if we stayed here.

    But, if my husband and I move our children to a colder, less densely populated state (Wyoming, Utah, or Idaho), I wanted to have up-to-date information on how we could best supplement our heating needs, should the power fail.

    I actually came away from this both relieved and sad. Relieved that there was, in fact, a safer way to heat the house manually by fire. Sad that an "outside wall" fireplace wasn't all that great, even though I kinda figured that it was less efficient for heating. Tudor Revivals are known for having awesomely cute little fireplaces on exterior walls, especially in the front, but it seems as though I should avoid this feature. More diamond-pane windows for me, I guess. :-D

    Before this information, I was seriously considering an exterior wall fireplace/woodburning stove, out of a desire to keep the roof more intact than a centrally located one. I wanted to minimize holes (and their sizes) in the roof to protect the integrity of it, long-term. I also prefer the aesthetic of a clutter-free roof.

    This post has a lot of linked reading material. I'm sure I'll be back as I go through it. I hope I properly understood everything so far. Please correct me if I need it!

    Thank you, Springtime. :-)

    Edited to add: Decorative chimney pots are a Tudor hallmark. How do they affect (back) drafting/venting?

    [I Googled chimney pot info, and apparently, they are 100% beneficial. I didn't find anything to the contrary.]

    Springtime Builders thanked One Devoted Dame
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  • worthy
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    all-electric homes are safer and healthier for indoor air quality concerns

    They were actually encouraged in our part of the world in the '70s when Ontario's nuclear and hydro plants produced the cheapest electricity in North America. Not so for years. Though it's still half the price of electricity in NYC, Boston and San Fran.

    But what produces electricity? Dirty oil and coal, dangerous natural gas and unthinkable nuclear. Celebrity environmentalists are aghast as they jet around the world denouncing fossil fuels. I guess that leaves us with solar panels and wind farms. And wonderful wood, so crackling natural and clean it's banned in many places as the biggest source of particulate pollution.

    Increased backdraft dangers from government-mandated tighter homes can be mitigated with a generous placement of CO detectors in every home.


    Springtime Builders thanked worthy
  • PRO
    Springtime Builders
    Original Author
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    No inherent problems I'm aware of doc. A well designed chimney should pull both interior locations. Might be more challenging to flash double penetrations out of the chimney top, but would prefer one chimney over two because it would be easier to flash with the roof.

    Chimneys are an extremely common location for roof leaks. For those planning masonry fireplaces of brick or stone, have your wallet ready for flashing them correctly with through-wall copper, best flashing practices.

    ODD, you're welcome and thanks for feeding my passions. Wood is preferred by most because it's cheap and highly available. It's a rapidly renewable resource, and for many provides exercise and better connection with nature. I love the smell of freshly split wood.

    An advantage over gas is wood stove backdrafting is obvious, which leads to better control. I think wood stoves and fireplaces are easier to damper, the best feature chimney top designs. I don't think most direct vent fireplaces have dampers, which probably contributes to the energy and comfort problems.

    The major downside: even with perfect chimney design, wood burning produces ash, soot, and particulate that is unhealthy to breathe. Ever seen direct sun light reveal the explosion of particles with ash cleanout operations? Yikes. Wood burning is also generally unhealthy for outdoor air.

    That said, it's a large part of winter country living, especially for existing homes. It's difficult to bring an old home up to the level of performance as a brand new one. Three days is typical for a long outage outside of the city but a well built home should be able to coast through that well above freezing in most climates.

    Horizontal venting for woodstoves is frowned upon but I'm sure there are situations where it works. Exterior wall fireplaces don't fit with Mr. Gulland's descriptions of perfect design, but if it exits near the highest part of the house, and features an insulated, well ventilated (to inside air) chase, and is properly built it could work as well as one closer to the interior I think.

  • PRO
    Springtime Builders
    Original Author
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Naturally, I agree with your electricity concerns Worthy. Our southeast region gets most of it's power from mountaintop removal mined coal, an environmental disaster complete with coal ash spills and obliterated mountain communities. My coal burning air pollution is headed your way right now!

    With the proliferation of efficient heat pumps and transition to photovoltaic solar panels, the electrical grid is being transformed for the better and I think your air quality up there would be worse if we were all burning wood. Regionally, our electrical grid has a long way to go but at least there is a renewable path. There is no such path for gas fracking but I know it's important for the grid until batteries get better.

    Mitigate is a good word for the use of CO detectors but I prefer and encourage to eliminate risks instead. You can eliminate the need for CO detectors by building all-electric homes and unattached garages. Apparently, not all CO detectors are equal. Install trusted brands in code mandated locations, change batteries often, and replace them in 5-6 years. Yet more maintenance and expense. It may be philosophical, but I don't want unneeded building practices harming future inhabitants that skimp or forget home maintenance needs.

  • One Devoted Dame
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I just clicked on the "unhealthy for outdoor air" link, regarding wood burning... Oh, boy... In my part of TX, we live for BBQ, and there would be *no way* anyone could get away with outdoor restrictions on wood burning! We slow burn for our meat literally all day long. :-D

    Honestly, when looking at various things that can be used as fuel, I'll pick wood every time. After all, Mother Nature herself burns it on occasion, so I'll take my cues from her. Ash and soot are beneficial for soil nutrient contents, yes?

    Oh, and I share your passion for detached garages, 100%.

    Edited to add: Love the idea of solar, too. Too bad I'll have to have a solar farm on the ground, since you know, I can't stand a cluttered roof, lol.

    Springtime Builders thanked One Devoted Dame
  • doc5md
    7 years ago

    I will be doing electric heat pumps (likely geothermal) and probably doing some solar as well (I like solar a lot). But I also desire an alternative heat source for outages. We will be those rural folks. Our house will be on 197 acres, 140 of which is wooded. Just taking blown down trees, I will have enough wood for the whole time I live there! So, I'm trying to make sure we do it right. The chimney has been placed in the middle of the house and will exit through the roof at highest point, and it will always be in conditioned space (no attic). It sounds like I'm already on the right track. Thank you for the links. I appreciate the discussion.

    Springtime Builders thanked doc5md
  • One Devoted Dame
    7 years ago

    I'm going through the "intermittent and continuous exhaust" and "ventilation systems" sections of Gulland's Hearth in the House article, and I'm kinda over here face-palming. We've made houses so "tight" that we now have to bring outside air inside, which is exactly what the tightness was trying to keep out, lol.

    It's just kinda funny. :-P

    Springtime Builders thanked One Devoted Dame
  • Sunny South
    7 years ago

    We thoroughly love wood burning fireplaces. There are many which meet strict EPA standards. We were able to burn our heatilator fireplace even during inversions which resulted in burn bans.

    Springtime Builders thanked Sunny South
  • Holly Stockley
    7 years ago

    Now, me - I'd give my eye teeth for a Swedish tile stove, but it's probably out of my budget. Up here in the Great White North some sort of alternative tends to be a necessity. Where the infrastructure is fragile, it's best not to put all your eggs in one basket. (A couple years ago, one squirrel in a transformer took down the whole grid for about 2 days) So we're likely to have some sort of wood burning apparatus.

    Springtime Builders thanked Holly Stockley
  • Katie S.
    7 years ago

    We have an EPA certified fireplace with a blower that heats our entire home. I am not sure how much the EPA certification means in terms of outdoor air quality, but when the catalytic converter is on there is no visible smoke from the chimney. I would imagine this is a good option? We burn wood from our property, have a low electric bill, and I just love being in the room with a fire. I would not want to be without it.

    Springtime Builders thanked Katie S.
  • patriceny
    7 years ago

    I have a direct vent fireplace, and while I think it looks pretty.....I will likely never again have one in freezing New York. The area in front of it is shockingly cold in the winter. You can find all sort of installation issues leading to this problem, but mine is installed correctly. The more I thought about it and the way it is designed, it makes sense to me why it's colder there. When it is running it puts out an amazing amount of heat - that fireplace heated my entire first floor when my boiler went on the fritz in sub-zero weather. And yes, that back-up heat source is sure nice, on the one day a year or so when I need it.

    I went direct vent because I thought it would be better, insulation-wise, than a wood burning FP. And maybe it is, I don't know. But in the grand scheme of things, I bet that bugger costs me way more money than I ever expected.

    We all prioritize things differently and I totally understand some people just love a roaring fire in the winter. I do too, in theory, but wow I'm tired of that hole in my insulation leaking cold air into my house.

    Springtime Builders thanked patriceny
  • autumn4
    7 years ago

    We also went direct vent and use our fireplace regularly in frigid Michigan, although it's downright balmy at the moment. Our house is extremely tight and it heats and cools like a champ. I don't notice any cold surrounding it at all.

    In the heating and cooling vein but on the other end - what I do notice is the humidity level in the summer. It can be completely pleasant temperature wise but we have to run the air just to get the humidity down and it actually feels warmer with the damp out. It is annoyingly sticky to the point that if you leave a pack of gum in a drawer it's like taffy before long. I suspect this is due to the tight build but holy cow-hate a sticky feeling home. I think it's too tight.

    Any comments on how to 'fix' that?

    Springtime Builders thanked autumn4
  • PRO
    Springtime Builders
    Original Author
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Doc, sounds like a you are doing excellent research. Depending how rural you are I doubt you would need a backup if you build efficiently and the same goes to Holly's squirrell prone grid. If two days is the longest outage in recent history, a new home built to 2012 energy codes or better would be fine in such short outages, even in cold climates.

    Mushcreek's home is exactly what I had in mind with efficiently built. I bet that even in the northeast, muchcreek's home wouldn't drop below 35-45F even after a week or maybe two weeks of power outage in subfreezing weather. I was pleased recently when a homeowner of one of our passive solar spec homes bragged on social media, after several days with highs in the lower 20s, the heat pump hadn't kicked on all day and included a picture of the thermostat at 72F.

    There are 3 forms of solar energy used in homes and buildings that could be configured as backup. Passive solar design is the strategy which uses south-facing windows to gain free heat from the sun. No wiring or electricity required.

    ODD, you raise an important point regarding outdoor air ventilation, the term I use to describe ventilating a home with outdoor air. It comes down to control. You don't want a home leaking on it's own because it will ventilate too much or too little, with a big concern being location of leaks. A leaky home could be supplying air from nasty places, often hidden and humid air movement promotes mold growth. By building tight, we eliminate unknown air sources and can supply outdoor air in the prescribed amounts recommended by the most current research. By controlling where the outdoor air is coming from, we can use ERVs and HRVs to filter and pre-condition it for better efficiency and health.

    Even those living in leaky homes might see health benefits to better ventilation.

    Cas, I think EPA certified is better than not, and I think it's mostly for efficient wood burning and outdoor air pollution. I would still caution those considering one, indoor wood burning will worsen indoor air quality no matter what you choose. Curious how well it would heat with no power to the blower and hopefully you have a good damper system.

    patriceny, your question, of gas vs wood fireplace insulation-wise depends on the details I think. Traditional wood burning fireplaces are usually enormous drags on whole house energy performance. Your particular gas unit sounds like a bust while Cas' EPA setup sounds much more efficient, though it also might be an insert rather than traditional fireplace. Comparing a tighter gas unit (with better chase) to other traditional wood fireplaces would yield better results. Woodstoves or woodstove-like inserts will almost always perform better than gas or wood fireplaces because their mass is totally within the building envelope. A woodstove-like insert usually uses a chase (building envelope convolution) that will drag down performance compared to a free-standing woodstove.

  • PRO
    Springtime Builders
    Original Author
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Hi Autumn hopefully your new home, however tight, includes an outdoor-air ventilation system. Basically, a dedicated fan that exchanges indoor air with outdoor air. Energy raters, home performance contractors and some HVAC professionals can evaluate and advise if not. For health more than humidity.

    There is no such thing as too tight. The tighter the better. Your descritpions sound like classic leaky, inefficient house to me. Dry, leaking winter air requiring excessive heating during the cold season and infiltrating humid summer air the wrongly sized AC, can't deal with in the warm season. Could be wrong just sayin.

    Strive for cooktops vented to the outdoors and if having home performance contractors out to evaluate, have them check bath vent fans. They should be exhausting at least 50 CFM, most dont. Keep the bath door closed while showering and vent until moisture is gone. Easy ways to control big sources.

    A lot of moisture comes from the ground which is harder to fix on existing construction. Hopefully you don't have a crawlspace and maybe a home performance contractor can make suggestions for the foundation. Exterior grading adjustments uphill of my old home have stopped basement water intrusion, keeping it much drier. For vulnerable foundations lacking appropriate finish grading, gutters should be used and maintained with reckless abandon.

    I feel most east coast climates require at least some summer air-conditioning, even in MI. Mini-split heat pumps are a good solution but don't settle for HVAC contractor sizing and brand recommendations. Try to find a third party to evaluate needs for load sizing and brand. One can probably lower energy bills by offsetting some of the gas-burning. Lower energy costs plus my friends in PA and uncle in WY appreciate your concerns over their well water quality from fracking threats.

  • doc5md
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Its funny you say how well a tight home would do in power failure conditions. I never have lived in a house that would do well at all. Our current house is an 1896 victorian with the original windows. The first floor is double thick brick, 1/2" firring strip and lathe/plaster. no insulation and no room for it. We did blow in insulation in the exterior 2nd floor walls where we could. We once lost power during the night after we went to bed one winter. We woke up at 530am to the bedroom at 43 degrees. You could see your breath. Downstairs was even colder. I can't imagine what it will be like to live in a tight house. I guess you can see my concern for having back up heat source though. To say we are excited about insulation and good windows is an understatement!!!

    Springtime Builders thanked doc5md
  • One Devoted Dame
    7 years ago

    Doc, I'm like you, and have never lived in a tight house before! It's such a foreign concept, lol.

    And Springtime... I know this isn't the right thread... but... you mentioned to Autumn that hopefully she doesn't have a crawlspace. Crawlspaces are bad? (Never had one... All of the houses I've ever lived in as an adult were on slabs.)

    Springtime Builders thanked One Devoted Dame
  • mushcreek
    7 years ago

    It really is amazing living in a well-insulated house, especially after having never lived in one for my first 60 years. I grew up in a 200 y/o cape in CT that had no insulation. Next, I lived in another old house in CT, also no insulation. When I moved to FL, our first house had no insulation, and the second had a little in the attic; none in the walls. All of those houses had leaky single-pane windows.

    In addition to holding a comfortable temperature for days, there aren't any cold or drafty spots anywhere. I find that I can keep the thermostat lower as long as there are no drafts or cold spots.

    Springtime Builders thanked mushcreek
  • autumn4
    7 years ago

    Thank you for the info springtime. We have a full basement and our soil is sand. We also live in the woods which keeps things from drying out. The woods are a blessing and a curse, haha! Kitchen fan is vented outside and we do have a window in our bathroom and that helps. It's more of an all over damp feeling.

    We run the fireplace because we like it and it heats the main living areas well which stops the furnace keeping the bedrooms a little cool for sleeping which we like. It really runs more in the spring and fall when there is chill in the air but not cold enough for the furnace to run if that makes sense. The house heats and maintains so well we don't really need it as much in the winter. We did use it last month when the power went out and I was thankful for it.

    It is much different than our last house that was so drafty. Night and day as far as efficiency.

    Springtime Builders thanked autumn4
  • BoomerSooner
    7 years ago

    @Springtime Builders


    What are the few exceptions that would make it acceptable to install a vent-free fireplace?


    We are in Oklahoma and are planning on installing a 60" linear fireplace which will be mainly for looks verses heating. There are vent-free and direct vent options.

    Springtime Builders thanked BoomerSooner
  • PRO
    Springtime Builders
    Original Author
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    For those that see the light in tight construction, don't assume your new construction will be tight. The easiest thing for most is to specify Energy Star certification. This ensures a home will be third party blower door tested to certain tightness minimums along with a slew of important home performance qualities.

    Older homes set a dismally low bar so doubling energy performance based on air-sealing seems like a big improvement. It's great people are more comfortable and efficient in newer homes, but it's probably cost effective and healthier to go further. Current international energy codes, even Energy Star have weak (leaky) minimums compared to higher performing certifications and programs. The industry is slow to learn, so enforcement starts at easy (inefficient) levels, gradually raising them. Sadly, most new homes are still not tested for blower door minimums.

    Crawlspaces enter the conversation because most new construction uses vented crawlspaces, which should be illegal, east of the Mississippi. Crawlspaces in humid climates need to be eliminated or built unvented to keep out the beast.

    Thank you Autumn, an important point that space heaters (even gas) can be used to reduce whole house consumption by not heating unused areas. It's good to use dirty energy wisely. Still think mini-splits are better choice than indoor combustion.

    Thanks BJ for calling me out. NEVER install ventless gas in an occupied home. Personal exceptions might include emergency, temporary, under construction, barns, rarely used cabins or event structures.

    If considering fireplaces for aesthetics only, for the sake of quality and health, PLEASE DON'T DO IT.

  • doc5md
    7 years ago

    Springtime- What are your thoughts on the bioethenol fireplaces in the realm of aesthetics? Just curious as I didn't even no such a thing existed, though I don't actually think I'd use one.

    Springtime Builders thanked doc5md
  • PRO
    Springtime Builders
    Original Author
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I think bioethanol may be a better choice for health and doesn't compromise the building envelope. Still, it's ventless combustion and how clean probably depends on the particular fuel. You wouldn't want to run it for very long in a tight home or room that did not have outdoor air ventilation because of oxygen depletion.

    I found this article on Treehugger that summarizes an article from Science Daily, in which researchers found high measurements of pollutants in certain bioethanol product's combustion. I agree with the research author's conclusion that bioethanol is a health hazard but might disagree that it's dirtier than a woodstove, once fire starting and ash cleanout is factored into their overall picture.

  • doc5md
    7 years ago

    Thanks Springtime. Yeah, I'm really leery of burning anything without proper venting. I thought that might be the case. Thanks for the response and the thread.