Hello Bob,

You have my sympathy on the cancer diagnosis, and it is poignant that you want to raise zinnias at this time in your life. But people are far more important than zinnias, and you might want to consider devoting more time to interactions with your family and relatives and neighbors and acquaintances. I guess you could say that we Internet personalities are also "people", but family should come first in my opinion. As a zinnia hobbyist I will comment on your message.

" Nonetheless, with the endless breeding that happens with Zinnia's, it's probable that the answers to this question is ever evolving. "

I don't know of any recent progress in large red zinnias. Many of the varieties you mentioned are old heirlooms, including the California Giants. The Benary's Giants are the closest to "modern" large flowered varieties. The current trend in zinnias is toward Powdery-Mildew-proof strains in the bedding zinnias, including primarily the Profusions and Zaharas. Their plants are too low and their flowers not big enough to meet your requirements. I haven't grown the Giganticas from Hazzard's, but I suspect they are just a re-name of existing large cut-flower zinnias, like Park's Picks are re-names. Big Red is an older strain you might want to try.

You might want to take a look at the GeoSeeds catalog. Their selection is competitive with Hazzard's, superior in some ways, but their catalog and their website contain no pictures. It is just basically a price list, with minimal descriptions of the varieties. For example, this is a listing at the bottom of page 116 in their GeoSeed 2016-2017 Seed Price List.

Super Cactus Giant Series 3 ft; Seven bright colors. Giant flowered tetraploid mix. Quilled cactus-form petallage. Premium quality. Choice for fieldgrown cutflower or mass landscaping. Colors: Mix. [a "trade packet" of 1M is listed at $3.15]

This is a link to the GeoSeed website

I will be glad to discuss this further and answer questions or make comments. Your 3½ acres is a virtually unlimited amount of space. My total growing space, including my South Garden and my North Garden, is more like half an acre. Which is basically all I can "care for".

ZM (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

Thanks Zen_man. I'll be studying Geoseed's offerings and will look for a best price on Big Red! Very helpful info otherwise too! As per family, I have, in my immediate, only my sister left (living in Mexico). My social life consists of some time with step family, coworkers, neighbors and clinic staff. Perhaps that's why I so treasure strangers stopping by to comment on my plantings and why I want another good show for them this year. And while I do have 3.5 acres available, I generally only plant 7-8 beds at about 10' x 50' each. Some are for veggies or for my other orange love - pumpkins! This could always change of course. Also, I've always been happy being a bit of a loner...

Hello Bob,

" Perhaps that's why I so treasure strangers stopping by to comment on my
plantings and why I want another good show for them this year. "

That is very understandable motivation, and I wish you the best in that endeavor. I am glad your Orange Kings were such traffic stoppers. They may turn out to be a hard act to follow, but your choice of bright reds may be able to do that.

" So far, I've purchased seeds for California Giant Red and Benary's Giant Scarlet for the main bed out front. "

Those are probably your best choices for the main bed in front. Hopefully the Big Reds will be able to add some credible support in side beds. The California Giants' strong point is still their big strong plants. The word "Giant" originally referred to the plant as much as the blooms. Benary's Giants are the first choice of the cut flower trade, having been bred by a respected German seedsman with longer, stronger stems for that purpose. The Benary's Giants are also available in more different colors than the older California Giant strain.

If you decide to stick with red zinnias for your landscape, you might want to experiment with some different reds in your side beds. Beds of white zinnias can look very nice, but red is more of a "traffic stopper" -- at least the traffic light makers seem to think so. So, you could run some experiments with the reds in your side beds. Specifically, you could grow a mix of Benary's Giant Deep Red and Benary's Giant Wine and Benary's Giant Scarlet and maybe some Benary's Giant Orange to get a bed of related colors, which would give the visual impression of a texture from a distance. (Scarlet is sort of a mix of "true" red with a little orange to make the red "warmer".)

And you could save seeds from your favorite specimens of each color for possible improved blooms for next year, or even make some crosses (not hard to do) to get mixed versions of those related colors. A cross between Deep Red and Scarlet might yield a good Bright Red. I am curious about what a cross between Wine and Orange might give. But a cross between Deep Red and Wine should give a "Deeper Red". Some sort of combination should yield a good Blood Red.

" ...and will look for a best price on Big Red! "

I don't always look for the cheapest price. And if I am going for the best results, I frequently buy from two or more different sources. The same zinnia variety from different seed fields can have different results. So I frequently get more variety in my garden when I grow seeds from more than one source.

ZM (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

Now we're talking! This is great getting your additional input on this. I will be following your suggestions above. I really like the idea of combining colors for the texture effect. Additionally, I was already thinking of trying some crosses too. In my position, that might seem a bit odd; however, I think that the anticipation of things to come that comes with gardening, has led to my unexpected longevity. When first diagnosed, I was given 3-4 months, MAX. That was Oct 2014! So hopefully, we'll be discussing how to plant my crossed seed for best effect next year at this time. In fact, I might order and plant some Giant Cactus Red just for another source of genes.

"...don't always look for the cheapest price." Well, I don't always. However, the Orange Kings I planted last year I found by bargain hunting. Instead of a little pack of seeds, I bought 2 full ounce bags. Zinnia seed seems to be all over the place, price-wise. Just looking through the original list of reds I listed above, often times one seedsman will sell an ounce of seeds for not much more $ than a competitor wants for 2 packets of 50 seeds. All supposedly for the same variety. Still, I know who you recommend and why. So I'll buy mostly from those vendors. Really, almost nobody's seed prices are too outrageous. But often, the shipping seems completely ridiculous. Especially for just 1 or 2 packs. It was really handy last year to have the bulk back up of Orange King seeds, as nearly everyone that stopped to comment, also ended up begging for some seeds.

I haven't gotten through to the Geoseed online catalog yet. The page says it's "under reconstruction." I do have the hard copy ordered. Also, my preliminary search for Big Red hasn't yielded much, bargain price or no. Burpee has them, but not too long ago someone from this forum ended up with Big Red seeds from Burpee that produced all sorts of colors. I've had the mixed up seed problem with Tomato seeds from Burpee. I might just start working on a big order from Johnny's. They have a great selection of pumpkins too.

Enough for now. I need to reiterate that I really appreciate your input and am certainly still open to any input from anyone else. I'm a bit nervous that "my fans" (Ha ha) will be disappointed, by my change from orange to red. I want to try to make sure to get this right the first time.

Silly me. I now see Hazzards carries Big Red Zinnia. Looks like they'll be getting an nice order too.

Hello Bob,

" I haven't gotten through to the Geoseed online catalog yet. The page
says it's "under reconstruction." I do have the hard copy ordered. "

Their online catalog has been "under reconstruction" for several months now. You should receive the 2016-2017 paper copy soon. Like I mentioned before -- no pictures. And the listings themselves take some getting used to, because of their very abbreviated form. For example, for Benary's Giant Dahlia BluePoint Series, the description is:

3ft; A special blend for the cutflower grower. Giant, florist quality, fully double flowers are produced on long, sturdy stems. Long blooming with excellent diseae resistance. Colors: Bright Pink, Carmine Rose, Coral, Deep Red, Golden Yellow, Lilac, Lime, Mix, Orange, Purple, Salmon Rose, Scarlet, White, Wine.

The colors are in alphabetic order. You can order any one of them separately. That single short paragraph actually lists what some online seed catalogs might use as many as 14 pages for. Of course, they would have color pictures and more detailed descriptions.

" Big Red hasn't yielded much, bargain price or no. Burpee has them, but
not too long ago someone from this forum ended up with Big Red seeds
from Burpee that produced all sorts of colors. "

As you noticed, Hazzards has Big Red

and so does Burpee, but I don't know if either comes true. I think the untrue Big Reds reported here in GardenWeb were seed-rack zinnias from one of the home stores. You might be getting different seeds when you order directly from Burpee. Big Red is not a new zinnia, but I don't know if it has heirloom status yet. California Giants are heirloom, being nearly 100 years old.

ZM (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

All this talk of Zinnia fields makes me wish some pictures had been included!

I hope this year's field brings in the people from far and wide!

Hi Sweet M C,

In my opinion zinnias don't look their best in "fields". This is a picture of a crowded bed of my zinnias in a previous year.

ZM

Ask and you shall receive!

Thanks!

I love them both ways! In Florida we have so much humidity that my Zins always get spots even when I have just one with nothing around it!

I think this year I might look into buying a fungus spray! Mine do branch out like that (as long as soil mealybugs don't eat the roots!)

A few years ago I got to walk in a field of Zins I had never seen so many in one place!

zen_man. I wish I'd taken pictures of my Orange King beds last summer. In them, the flowers looked to be a lot more densely packed in my patches than as shown in your crowded bed from 2015. In your photo, it doesn't seem as if you experienced nearly the amount of blooms on side branches as the Orange Kings produced. Perhaps it's a variety "thing"? Maybe O.K. is extra good at side branching. I planted one bed with carefully spaced transplants. But in the other, I simply prepared the soil and broadcast the seed willy nilly. After a month, both were solid Zinnia and individual plants were hard to discern. Only on the side of the beds, was plant form noticeable. Anyway, plant form was less a concern compared with total area covered with color. Even though, looking back, maybe I just got lucky. Because obviously, those features are interconnected. Also, my beds are extremely loose and fertile. Every year they get amended with 3-4 inches of either spent mushroom soil or municipal compost. I also apply a judicious amount of 18-18-18 twice during the growing season. I never let the beds get too dry either. I have a good well and some fancy sprinklers. (This year I bought some of the Better-Gro you recommend and will add foliar feeding. Plus some of that Bayer to fight fungus.)

I now have in hand, big seed orders from Johnny's and Hazzards. I also got my Geoseeds catalog and am putting together a large order from them.

Here's where I'm going to need some help. As discussed way above, my main bed will have California Giant Red and Benary Giant Series Scarlet. Do you think it will look "proper" to just plant half the bed with one and the other half with the other? Next to each other, or one in front, one in back? Surely not intermixed?

This year, like last, I'll grow transplants for some beds and just spread seed in others. I'm now getting duplicates and will be interested to see how seeds from different vendors perform. I have just recently cleared two new large areas on my grounds for new beds. I have 7 sets of 4-foot over-driven fluorescents. Nonetheless, there will never be enough space under them to grow transplants for all my plots.

In the side beds where you suggested mixing types/colors for a texture effect, how do you think that mixing should take place? Rows? Blocks? Clumps of plants? Random staggered placement of individual plants?

Thanks again for all your expert advice! I may soon allow this thread to die out for awhile until I have results to report. Seems like I'm a bit off the original premise. I'll likely start other threads to deal with additional questions. They'll likely have something about traffic-stopping red zinnias in the title. In the meantime, I'll also be reading your excellent series on the fun of breeding!

Bob,

I will respond in more detail later, but first a few points:

" I planted one bed with carefully spaced transplants. But in the other, I
simply prepared the soil and broadcast the seed willy nilly. After a
month, both were solid Zinnia and individual plants were hard to
discern. "

That probably establishes that starting zinnia seeds indoors and transplanting the seedlings out isn't worth the extra effort for you. Just planting seeds in-ground works, and is a lot less effort. I do both, but I have some special "breeder" zinnias that I think are worth the extra effort, and lots of "patch run" seeds that get planted in-ground after the soil warms up. As you say, in a month or two you can't see the difference in the two methods.

" Here's where I'm going to need some help. As discussed way above, my
main bed will have California Giant Red and Benary Giant Series Scarlet.
Do you think it will look "proper" to just plant half the bed with one
and the other half with the other? Next to each other, or one in front,
one in back? Surely not intermixed? "

Half in one bed and half in the other side-by-side would probably look "funny" and I would eliminate that option. If there were a clear height difference between the California Giants and the Benary's Giants, the the taller one should go in back, like you were taking a group portrait of people. Right now, I am not sure which of the two is the taller variety.

Oddly, I grew both strains last year, but under different environmental conditions, so my experience does not answer the question. I had tall and less tall specimens in both. A few of my California Giants were my tallest and biggest plants, and they got breeder status. But some of my Benary's Giants were taller than some of my California Giants, so last year was inconclusive.

I will respond more later. My indoor zinnia gardening is a bit busy right now.

ZM

Hi Sweet Monkey Cheese,

" In Florida we have so much humidity that my Zins always get spots even when I have just one with nothing around it!
I think this year I might look into buying a fungus spray! "

If you have any pictures of the spots, they would be of interest. Not all zinnia foliage diseases are fungal. Some are bacterial. Some spots could be insect damage, or even a more unusual nutrient deficiency. But it is worthwhile to consider "fighting" the spots.

"Mine do branch out like that (as long as soil mealybugs don't eat the roots!)"

Is it possible that by "mealybugs" you meant "pill bugs"? Pill bugs are sometimes called "roly poly" because of their habit of rolling up to protect themselves. I think mealybugs actually eat meal.

I know that Florida does have its special problems for gardeners, and I would like for you to become very successful with zinnias in Florida. Partly because Florida is much more of a challenge for zinnias than Kansas is for me. We do have pill bugs here, but I keep them under control with a sand mulch. Pill bugs, earwigs, slugs, and snails hate sand.

" A few years ago I got to walk in a field of Zins I had never seen so many in one place! "

Was that in Florida?

ZM

It was in Florida.. in ...wait for it... Plant City, Fl. A family farm that does a corn maze in the fall and a Sunflower maze and zinnia field for Mothers day.

I'll look for the root mealybugs pics, but it is like the scale mealybugs plants get on stems or leaves, but these one live in the soil and suck the life out of plant by the roots!

Hi Sweet Monkey Cheese,

You are right about what they are called. I just checked Wikipedia, where it says,

" Mealybug females feed on plant sap, normally in roots or other crevices,
and in a few cases the bottoms of stored fruit. They attach themselves
to the plant and secrete a powdery wax layer (hence the name mealybug) used for protection while they suck the plant juices. "

I guess I was thinking mealworms. So the mealybugs may very well be a formidable opponent to growing zinnias in Florida. So, are you growing zinnias right now, or planning to plant them soon? We can't have those mealybugs sucking the life out of your zinnias. I wonder if those farmers in Plant City used something against them.

ZM

If you were so happy with Orange King, why not plant it again? Perhaps you could plant a block of red flowers or some other color to contrast with the orange and make them pop out even more? I think it's great that you are taking on this project. I'm sure you will inspire everyone in your neighborhood. I'm already inspired to seek out Orange King seeds for my garden.

I pray that God blesses you during this terrible trial and gives you His strength and help.

If you want a small plant (12 inches) with a large flower (4 inches) you can't beat the Magellan series. I discovered them about 4 years ago and they have been in my flower bed ever since. The seeds are a bit pricey but they put on a great show all summer

Thanks amberroses for the prayers. I did have a good reason to plant red rather than orange. One thing I was concerned about was the possibility of an overload of orange along my highway. I gave seeds to a BUNCH of passing motorists last summer (and fall & this winter.) Who knows where they all live. I did have an even more compelling reason too, but for the life of me can't recall what that was at the moment. (Houzz never notified me about your reply, so I'm caught a little off guard.) Thinking about is odd because the O. Kings were so successful & Orange is a favorite color of mine! Perhaps it was only that I just had the urge for something different after 2 years of Orange.

I definitely urge you to try O. King. I believe if you google "orange king zinnia seeds" and "free shipping", you'll find the same great bargain I got.

Zen-I'll likely still be starting some seeds indoors again despite no apparent advantage. I just adore growing things and this recent warm spell has me chomping at the bit. For sure, I'll start some quick ripening mater varieties around St. Patty's day; however, I fear that won't completely satiate my urge to grow some things.

I guess I'll just have to wing it on the placement of the California Giants and the Benary's. I wouldn't know where else to look to find out which is tallest. My main flowerbed is actually a large even mound. That should help me deal with the height issue if it's no TOO great.

I got 4 new large beds started so far this winter at the back of my property. The hardest work is done. They'll be partially shaded from 3 PM on. But hey! I certainly have plenty of seeds & I think that'll be enough sun to trail some other combinations. So far, my Zinnias have required little real work once they're established. Even weeds cease to be a problem if I keep after them for the first month.

dowlinggram-I had orange Magellan 2 summers ago and did like them, a lot! However, they were not nearly as showy from the road as the Orange King were.

Last week my Snowdrops started blooming in mass and last night I started watering and slightly warming my Bonfire Begonia tubers in their hanging planters. It's getting more officially spring like every day! Maybe the groundhog wasn't completely right about the number of winter weeks left. : )

Hi Bob,

" Maybe the groundhog wasn't completely right about the number of winter weeks left. "

Actually the groundhog doesn't have a very good record, and has been wrong significantly more times than right. Flipping a coin is better than the groundhog. Today is a little coolish here, but the weather guys (and gals -- the gals are my favorite) say we are due for a warmer-than-normal spell for longer than a week, with nighttime temperatures above freezing. And February is the last month of "meteorological Winter", so meteorological Spring is only a couple of weeks away. And those meteors don't lie.

Orange and pink are the two most frequent zinnia colors. This is one of my recent indoor orange zinnia blooms.

ZM

Boo, groundhogs !!! Yea, weathergirls !!!

Reading this post after 4 years. How are you doing Mr.Bob?

It would be so nice to know he is still around.