oh, pooh, Jeannie, I just appreciate your long and thoughtful response. What shows through is your passion for growing roses well. I should have been more specific in my question, which is whether people have observed with their noisettes, if they grow them up here, that it's the lack of heat that is a problem with them or whether it's a hardiness issue. I am zone 8b up here. I grow two noisettes, 'Cato's Cluster' and 'Redoute's Red Noisette' - the shrubs themselves are getting large and seem to be healthy, about 3 years old. No blackspot at all, but few blooms. I also have Madame Alfred Carriere; same thing, not much bloom but appears to be healthy. My biggest question about noisettes is whether they are like teas, in that they require heat to do well, or is it that they are happy in mild temperatures, they just don't like cold. I think those are two different questions. It has seemed to me that the teas require heat in order to grow well;. I grow four teas. They are all in as much sun as I can give them, but it is very slow with all of them. The noisette shrubs seem to grow well in the mild temps. The delayed bloom on all of them may just be an age thing here, I am not sure. Redoute's Red is in a spot at the edge of the cleared forest; it looks like a species rose so I am hoping over time it will bloom well there in the partial shade. I finally moved Cato's Cluster to a very sunny spot which we finally got cleared out; it's been moved several times, poor thing. If noisettes just need protection from cold, then I think they will be fine here. I just ordered two more oddball noisettes, so I'm thinking about them and it seems to me to come down to this question. If it's they need heat, it's going to be slow going, just as my teas, which are in as much sun as I can give them, grow slowly. My impression is that it's they need cold protection rather than heat, but I'm not sure yet. I also think you gave some great advice about care. I actually either do or at least know to do what you suggest, but it's always good to hear care tips again and to hear what others do. I'm trying llama poops this year because of the lack of weed seeds, or so I read, anyway. We'll see next spring what pops up. Thanks for the response; I always appreciate help. Gean

Thanks so much for the recommendations/responses. I have tried to review each and do a little more research given our specific area. My First Choice for Now: Golden Showers: Questioned/Recommended by: Denise (z9-10), SherryOcala, seattlesuze z8 PNW http://www.helpmefind.com/plant/pl.php?n=1835 My 2nd or 3rd choice for now: Zeus: Questioned/Recommend by: rjlinva 7VA http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/pl.php?n=6655&tab=1 My 2nd or 3rd choice for now: Reve D'Or' Rose Recommended by: rjlinva 7Va and limited by Sherry http://www.helpmefind.com/plant/pl.php?n=5197&tab=1 I like this one pretty good and per HMF it is a Tea Noisette climber. OTHER CONSIDERATIONS: Casino is a little shorter than what we are looking for. Tahitian Moon: Questioned/recommended by wirosarian z4 WI Hmmm, she is cast as a shrub or bush that can also be trained as a climber. Hmmm, think I'm looking for a more vigorus, honest to goodness climber. http://www.helpmefind.com/plant/pl.php?n=45164 and http://www.contrarymarysplants.com/roses.htm Golden Celebration: Questioned/Recommended by: robynb (California) Most of what I read says a bush as opposed to a climber. Granted, I don't see much about growing in Zone 8b, Georgia, but, if it is cast as a bush, I think I would prefer going with at rose cast as a climber. Still, beautiful rose, just not sure it fills my request here. http://www.helpmefind.com/plant/pl.php?n=1834

Cultivated plants are often vigorous hybrids, rather than actual Spanish blue-bells. Yes, their behavior in gardens here is such that it resulted in the following being written: To combat an infestation, dig up the bulbs and drown, mash, microwave or dry them thoroughly before composting them. It may take searing summer heat or attic dryness to render the bulbs a fatal blow. Maybe it is more practical to try drowning them: put them into a tub of water for a few months. http://arthurleej.com/a-bluebell.html

Thx radiant heat is certainly an option to consider, for comfort alone when sitting there. The lower outside ground level patio currently has a cement slab for part and treated wood section. Radiant heat feels GREAT. But isn't gas heated air less costly to operate? We have forced air in the house now not a heat pump. And so if electric radient heat is in the solarium (outside the main house) then plants might die if the power goes out in cold weather. Moving to a new house I didn't know well yet and potentially interested in heating an outbuilding shed, solarium, greenhouse, and/or attached garage I did some research. A Williams Direct Vent Gas Wall Heater can do any of these, can be self installed, has a small footprint, and look nice. https://www.williamscomfortprod.com/product/direct-vent-furnaces/ The convection design can keep amazingly even heat even (5 degrees between ceiling and floor) without a fan. It needs no external power. It can be operated on either propane or natural gas, with a $50 conversion pilot kit to switch over. It is reliable and needs little maintainence. When serviced it is a standard gas design and not specialized. Having most of the uses I have now and may want later, I invested in one, starting with propane in an outbuilding. I use two taller trailer-like propane tanks now, to have backup. And installed a cost effective auto tank regulator switch over system for when the current tank goes empty. It all works great. With night 55.7 F temp within 0.5 degrees each night. An indicator shows me when the supply tank depletes. I unscrew the empty and refill it during other errands. If i stay with propare, we'd just call to have a larger rental tank placed here. If we switch to natural gas, then we can use the ophaned tanks for BBQ or potential RV addition. And we sure plan to entertain in summer. You now just about have the whole lot figured out. We are located on a circle with smaller front yard and big generous angular back yard all solud cedar fenced. To reduce labor the front yard was reworked to become lawnless. I'm keeping the RV parking area to the side of the backyard. I'm not turning it into garden, just for resale value alone ... and you never know, when your kids or siblings might request to park there awhile! The 'Nikita's Gift' Persimmon Tree that I got would be kind of tight next to it. And I can't then plant fruit trees or a pea patch there. Our neighbor gifted us 80 fruits this last fall. Pretty convinced now that I like them. You can choose astringent to sweetness level. Does everything well but picks itself. Can pick early before the amass and kitchen counter ripen. Bumper superfood crop that eats well raw, freezes, dries, microwaves, cooks or cans well as jam. Worthwhile if nothing else than for the awesome fall leaf color alone. And looks like a little Halloween themed tree in season with little flying pumpkins like fruits in the air. Since one tree is more than enough for home use. I enhancing this mass fall color effect next to with "Jelena' Witch Hazel. If fact, it is incensing us now! (Photo taken yesterday.) Internet photo of 'Jelena' fall color. And ... ~50 Hyacinths are along the front walkway and a classic "old bourbon" class scent climbing rose* near the front door. The rose is to greet, add interest, and soften the house corner visual effect. * It pays to plant a thornless rose here, especially one with nice deep red new growth for interest sake. The entrance location is northside so partial shade tolerance was important too. I selected 'Zephirine Drouhin' whose combined positive attributes are unusual in a climbing rose. It likely comes from "Arabia" in the middle ages with the Crusades. German gardeners gave it a name that stuck anout a hundred years ago. It's now enjoyed worldwide. I discovered this rose on the front page of a Wayside Garden catalog now many years ago (see their photo below) and have grown it ever since. It's worth the pruning effort and training practice. Nearly thornless means nearly painless. But growing 15-30', don't fall when it gets you out of bounds. Below the rose are several fragrant low growing evergreen Sarcococca humilus 'Fragrant Valley' plants as ground cover. A nice spicey warm greeting scent from it precedes rose blooms from Feb-Mar. And there's little visual indication, where it is coming from, which adds to some real visitor intrigue. What is that ... I smell? The early blooming, highly fragrant Daphne odora planted in front to add interest near the leggy rose bottom is more visually obvious. Nice to have an evergreen here for when the rose is leafless. I selected a variegated leaf variety here for visual contrast with the rose climbing up high from behind. You guessed it, the rose proven in my former shady yard transplanted well as well as an offset of our also pictured 9' tall Giant Himalayan Lily (Cardiocrium giganteum v. yunnanense). They start growing very early in the Spribg even before the 7-8' tall Hydrangea 'Blue Wave' on the left gets going much. They have amazing glossy leaves and first look much like a Hosta, but when mature can look like the stem is a big elevated from the ground. When blooming initates they begin elongating fast better showing the "hosta on a stick" appearance, as they bolt upwards into full bloom. The bold seeming magical flowers have maroon stripes inside and emit a strong sweet spicy "waftable" fragrance that carries well. This begins at dusk and carries through the night. Yunnanense tends to bloom at 8 to 12 ft tall and often has darker blackish stem color and flower markings. The flowers petals often flair out more and look sort of alien. Whereas the type species Cardiocrium giganteum v. giganteum is larger, blooming at 9 to 14'. However, it is a marginally less vigorous in both growing and initiating flowering. Once it initates however, it wastes no time in amazing you. The beautiful fragrant type species flowers have more tubular based Trumpet Lily shaped flowers. They start out creamy green as they begin to open, then shift to white. The first time I bloomed a Cardiocrium I was lucky to bloom all three I had and got both kinds and to compare. I had gotten gallon sized plants two years prior at two different local nurseries, all just labeled Cardiocrinun giganteum. White white flowers, tall above the viewer, of intense fragrance that carries well makes the Giant Himalayan Lily the perfect early summer plant to begin luring you out to enjoy a moonlight garden. The crazy tub planted Yunnanense offset that I moved last February, prompty bloomed here about 3 months later, before I could plant it. With that modest clump having bloomed the year before, I did not expect it! My Cardiocrium were placed in their preferred morning part sun location, the on north side of a shed. And it had been heavily fed in hope. Later these beauties were worked into a design area, near timber bamboo, and hardy banana. Click n' grow the Cardiocrinun giganteum v. yunnanense photo below Can you believe how an early childhood experience might influence in an unsuspecting person's life later? Plant good seeds in fertile ground.