Has anyone approached the people at the church to mention this (the OP)? What would happen if they instituted a first-come policy, seating by the ushers, with parties only being seated when all arrive? Many restaurants do this, seating only when the whole party is there. Seems that if so many people are visitors or once-a-year worshipers, they'd understand.

Sushi pup, I am going to write a nice note to the church. I fully understand that families might want to sit together so they must arrive together. That is why we met in the vestibule so that we could go in together.

Yes I think that the ushers should fill the church from the front as people arrive. It just makes sense. In light of all of the talking, lack of participation, etc. I doubt that any family could feel any spiritual bonding at that service,

We, too, have been to restaurants where they do not seat you until the entire party arrives. Sometimes people need a little nudge.

Of all places to not feel out of sorts with other human beings, you'd think that would be church. I'm sure, however, that most of us feel frustrated with our fellow congregants from time to time. I certainly do. We have a moment at the beginning of each service where the pastor welcomes us, then calls us to prepare our hearts and minds for worship as the organist (an immensely talented musician) plays. To me, this means silencing oneself and beginning to pray or meditate. It astounds me how so many people - most of them middle-aged and older, so you'd think they'd know better - use those moments to continue inane conversations with those around them that they started before the service began. Hello? Prepare your freakin' hearts and minds, you morons! Yeah, how very "Christian" of me, right? It's hard, though, to overlook with kindness and patience the acts of others, especially when they appear selfish and clueless.

I haven't encountered a lot of seat-saving, and I agree with others that saving a couple is fine, but saving an entire row is presumptuous. If you want to sit together with your larger group, you should all plan to arrive together. Saving entire rows seems to say "we're more important than you are, and you are not going to sit here. It's off-putting and unfriendly, IMO.

If it was one seat for a grandma or spouse, fine. A whole row? I'd go ahead and sit down.

I tend to think of saving seats like I do those people who park right outside the grocery entrance and leave their car running, instead of finding a parking space like the rest of us. In many cases, it's for an elderly or otherwise infirmed person. Otherwise, it's the special snowflake syndrome.

It's one thing to save a seat, another an entire row.

I'm an early arriver so generally I get any seat I want. I believe it's a benefit of arriving early. If I save a seat for someone, I make sure a coat or purse gets put in that one spot, like they just left. I never say "it's saved," but rather, "someone is already sitting here."

I think many would quail at the prospect of being seated in the front pews by virtue of arriving early. My church's ushers will help you find a seat if it's crowded, but are happy to let you sit as far back as you prefer.

Yes, I've encountered this and I have zero tolerance and patience for it. That's why you couldn't pay me to go to 4pm mass on Xmas eve.

People are rude and inconsiderate, and the crowding makes me way to uncomfortable to tolerate an hour-long mass.

It's Christmas and suddenly everyone's religious. Bah humbug.

We've been going to 7a.m. mass on Xmas day and I thoroughly enjoy it. First thing in the morning and not crowded. I actually get to enjoy it, plus, we have the whole rest of the day ahead.

I wouldn't change my mass preference to comply with anyone's schedule.

Years ago we attended a Christmas service at my DH's sister's church. They anticipated the crowd and held the service in the school's gymnasium. It was a bit odd, but there was no scrambling for seats. It was large enough to accommodate the over flow of members and their guests.

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Our church does that too and it's great to have a second location for the overflow. Yes, odd to be looking up at basketball hoops!

A man and child showed up and asked to join us. Fine, we squeezed 7 in. Then right before Mass started, another of his family members showed up and wanted to join us. I refused to budge. It is hotter than Hades as it is, and I was not going to sit on top of my own family b/c his family decides to show up late. We were already squished in, including my elderly mother. I could tell the guy was pissed as he was giving me a dirty look when I told do we could not move any further. But sorry, the pews are simply not designed for 8 people

******

Yup, tough cookies. I'm not sitting squished like a sardine for an hour, up, down an kneeling. I can't focus on the mass and would wind up leaving.

I also think it's just plain immature to insist on sitting together when you have a large group or family. If you're adults, act like it. Sit where there's room and somehow get through the hour without your posse.

While we're on this subject, what is it with parents who parade a very young child down to one of the front rows for a service? Inevitably said child grows restless and begins to fuss, often to the point of creating a scene and having to be removed from the service. This requires the parent to stand up in front of everyone, and traipse all the way down the aisle to the exit in the back, kid kicking and screaming all the way out. Yes, your little angel looks precious in that new Christmas dress, but you've just made a spectacle of yourself. I find it impossible to gaze on in adoration, when it appears that calling attention to the child was the intent in the first place.

Ida- that's where "cry rooms" and remote viewing rooms are great. Many churches also have windows in back with seating so that families with babies can sit, watch and hear, but be separate from the main congregation.

We went to the last service on Christmas Eve, and I was surprised to see a group saving two rows of seats. We got there early and got seats with ease, but many were stuck back in the entryway on folding chairs. The seat-savers' family members came in 5 minutes before the service started. I thought it was a little rude, but to each his own.

Save a seat or two. Frankly, I'd feel funky if someone saved a whole row and I was one of those that entire row was being saved for. Whether it is a church event, or some sort of theatric production, I certainly shouldn't be socializing DURING the event! So, a couple of us end up sitting elsewhere! I can see one lone latecomer might not want to sit alone, but hey, two or three can move off elsewhere. End of problem. End of entire row reservations.

Mimi - yeah, that's what those rooms are intended to be used for, but I swear I have attended church services where I felt I wanted to use them, since the crying children were clearly not going to be removed from the service. I once attended a church where almost everyone had small children, and one couple allowed their son to stretch out on the pew next to me, where he proceeded to put his feet all over me. They corrected him once, but didn't insist that he sit upright, so after awhile he went right back to kicking. I picked up his feet several times and placed them off of my thigh. Had there been another place to sit, I would've moved. I probably should've just got up and left - I was that mad!

I'm neither a child hater nor an unreasonable prig. I understand that as humans we bring ourselves, flaws and all, into the public places where we gather together. I probably do things that annoy others, but I really try to be mindful of not doing such things. I am also working on my patience and tolerance, but that doesn't mean I'm going to stop seeing bad behavior for what it is.

I once attended a church where almost everyone had small children, and one couple allowed their son to stretch out on the pew next to me, where he proceeded to put his feet all over me. They corrected him once, but didn't insist that he sit upright, so after awhile he went right back to kicking. I picked up his feet several times and placed them off of my thigh. Had there been another place to sit, I would've moved. I probably should've just got up and left - I was that mad!

*****

You're a better woman than I!

I probably would have just left and told God that "I'm sorry, I tried".

My church, like many, has an aging population and the mantra is "attract new families with young children!" Families with young children are encouraged to sit in the front row where small area rugs and baskets of toys are available. Most decline because a lot of folks are averse to sitting in the front row. The rest of us are supposed to embrace and celebrate the joyful noise of kids whining and fussing during the service. The other Sunday some kid ran up and rolled around on the altar rail kneeling cushion. The parents just sat there.

There is childcare available during all services. If I were a parent with a young child who I really wanted to experience a full-on Eucharist, I'd sit near the back so I could slip out with the least amount of disruption if my kid's antics got out of hand. I don't hate kids (had one myself) but recognize there are other people present whose comfort is as important as mine.

The other Sunday some kid ran up and rolled around on the altar rail kneeling cushion. The parents just sat there.

Yeah, I've witnessed this sort of thing at a church relatives attend. As soon as the service ends, the smaller kids make a beeline to the front and stomp, run, jump, and just generally raise holy hell on and around the altar. While, as Linelle says, the parents stand around either completely clueless, or gazing lovingly at the "exuberance" that their progeny exhibits. To me, this demonstrates a lack of respect for the church's sanctity. When do these children learn what it means to revere a place? I'm guessing they probably never do, and that's a real shame.

I also understand that children need to learn how to sit still and behave in church, but this has to start at home. It can't begin only once out in public. I've seen quite a few parents who are very reactionary when it comes to their children, for instance, wanting to talk during a church service. Recently I sat behind a couple with a son who was about 10 or 11, and he apparently had a lot to whisper to them about. They never once shushed him, but engaged with him each and every time he bent his little head towards theirs. At one point, the dad and the boy began a playful back and forth routine of bumping one another with their shoulders. I had thoughts of reaching over and slapping them both on the backs of their heads! That was an evening event shortly before Christmas, and I tried to calm down by reminding myself that the birth of Jesus and the crowds who came to see him all throughout his life were surely anything but quiet and subdued. That helped my outlook ... a little bit.

Whoa, never saw children rush the altar! They need to reinstitute communion rails ;-)

The kid that rolled at the altar rail...Her parents were sitting in the front row, guests of a family whose infant was being baptized. They might have been unfamiliar with a church experience. At one point the little girl turned to her parents and said in a loud stage whisper, "can I be noisy now?" A parishioner friend was charmed by this. I'm sure Jesus would be as well. It's obviously something I have to work on. :p

Mimi, we have a long communion rail. We also call it the altar rail.

Goodness! Saving seats is a tradition at the church I've attended for 32 years! The most prompt family member gets there early (me) and saves seats for the rest of the family who are always late due to my SIL. There were 7 of us Christmas Eve. That's most of a row. It's a huge treat for me to sit with my family and all go up to receive communion together (we're Episcopalian so we kneel). It's the regulars who save seats in our church - the visitors can sit on the foldingchairs in the Narthex.

Going to church as a family and sitting together is special. Families cannot always arrive at once - small children, the elderly, the dawdlers. At Christmas and Easter, arriving early is imperative. The "regulars" know this. CECs (Christmas and Easter Christians) are on their own.

Sure was easier when one "owned" a pew box!

I'm also an Episcopalian and honestly, it gives me great joy to receive communion kneeling alongside both friend and stranger.

I go to church every Sunday and special feast days in between. I usually get to sit where I want and sometimes save just one seat next to me for a friend I don't get to see often.

It's true that some folks only come to church for Easter and Christmas. We hope they will find something at one of those services to inspire them to return. We actually consider guests and first-timers as special. If we saved all the good seats and made them sit on folding chairs in the narthex (ours is tiny), it wouldn't send a very welcoming message.

Sure was easier when one "owned" a pew box!

*****

"owning" a pew box and employing some class system of pew squatting rights for "regulars" is antithetical to any church I've gone to.

My religion is more of a "the last shall be first" kind of mindset.

We do not attend services, but it sounds like something I/we would totally do and have done in similar situations. Reading it here and thinking about it, I now think it is kind of embarrassing and selfish.

By the same token I don't have my DH drop me off in front of the door anymore (unless maybe if is a Category 4 Hurricane, or like, my pedicure is wet), now that someone here mentioned it as a pet peeve and taught me about "special snowflake" myopia.

: )

I would shrink from embarrassment and selfish guilt if I "held" an entire pew of seats while other people needing to sit just as much as my family and friends needed to sit, were turned away so my clan could stroll in last minute and walk past all those who'd arrived ahead of time.

I'd be uncomfortable doing the saving, as well as walking past people to take the spot they should have been entitled to and offered before me.

I get that it's special that people worship together, but I would never displace another so that could happen. If you all arrive together and there's room to be seated all at once, great. If not, come earlier next time.

Offer it up. That's what you're there for anyway ;-)

You know, something tells me Anglo might be pulling our legs just a wee bit.

It's the regulars who save seats in our church - the visitors can sit on the foldingchairs in the Narthex.

WWJD?

"(unless maybe it is a Category 4 Hurricane, or like, my pedicure is wet)" - Bahahahahaha! True "needs" category and I'd bet not even then would you do it -- lesson to the kids and all.

I suspect Jesus would pitch a fit.

Our small church doesn't have the congregation it once had. There are usually plenty of seating up front. Most sit in the back. This is a section of pews separated from the front section. I don't know how they can hear the service. Despite even the pastor's invites to come up closer, the people are resigned to sitting there year after year. But at least they come.

"It's the regulars who save seats in our church - the visitors can sit on the foldingchairs in the Narthex.

WWJD?"

Really? Jesus would welcome every child, well dressed or not. In any pew. Even the crazy acting ones. He would also celebrate families who sit as families.

Now, getting to real life current church. The OP wrote that she wasn't a Catholic, and had a problem that others saved space for those who may be Catholic (or surpporting Parishioners) in a High Holyday Mass.

Think about this...someone not a Parishioner, or of the same faith taking up seats in a Family parish. Someone who may not fully appreciate the doctrine presented at Mass? Are they only there as part of a Christmas celebration, to please their family?

A Parish supported by people that have small children who can not sit through an hour of waiting time plus the one hour Mass. But they want to introduce their children to the real wonder of Christmas.

Do you really want us to bring the 18 mo to Mass an hour before Mass starts?

ML

Whew. Take a look at this and allow yourself to be TOLD. I'm not certain what denomination the author is (he references Southern Baptist, which I am definitely not), but I agree wholeheartedly with what he says here. I don't save seats, but this still spoke to me about the need to get my heart right about other things.

Frankly I wouldn't complain about Mass or any church on Christmas! Christmas Mass at midnight around here is hugely crowded with extended families, guests, people who never darken the door of a church any other Sunday of the year. It is a religious service, yes, but also a tradition, an event, a spectacle for many. I love midnight Mass but I can only stomach it every few years because you have to get there very early and expect the whole thing to take several hours. So I know what to expect. My church has 5 additional Christmas Masses. This year I went to 7 am Mass on Christmas Day and it was low key and lovely.

i admit, I did not watch the link. When you said you didn't know his denomination??? (Who is he and why should I care?) Does he have a neighborhood church/Parish or is he wanting a mega church? ) does he have a brick and mortar church that families have supported, for years?

Mr. Duren's essay has more to do with saving or expecting a particular seat on a regular basis. (My cousin was once not-so-politely encouraged to move from where he was standing on a train platform by a fellow who said "this is my spot", and sure enough, the train door opened right there.)

I'm in the camp of, if on a special occasion one person is there to hold the seats, then go an ahead an hold as many as you need. What difference does it make when the rest arrive? But one person had better be there.

Because we're talking about Christmas mass/service, it reminds me of our baby Jesus in the manger which was present from the beginning of Advent through Christmas.

Our baby Jesus started out in his manger without any hay. As a family, we would add hay when we did something good, so that by the time Jesus arrived on Christmas, he would be comfortable and warm.

We would offer our acts and sacrifices for Him, and in that spirit, would never deny anyone a seat because they were some second-tier congregant vis a vis their not being the exact same faith or denomination, or being a visitor just passing through.

To each their own, but I truly find hoarding seats and turning people away from the opportunity to be comfortable to be the opposite of welcoming our Savior into the world.

According to tradition, Mary was also turned away from the Inn, and had to give birth in a barn with animals.

To my original response, this lack of Christian behavior and basic decency is why I avoid the crowds at all costs.

Sheesh, I guess I opened a can of worms! I attend this one service per year because we are 250 miles from our own church, and my S-I-L is widowed and asks us to attend with her. So, obviously this does not impact me in the long run. I was just surprised by what I see as rude behavior....no matter our religious affiliation.

I can understand others' views, also. Our pastor asks us to make accommodations for visitors on Christmas and Easter....hopefully making them feel welcome.b

i surely did not mean to offend anyone.

There could be psychology classes on just in the mindsets of church goers with their particular peccadillos ;-)

When I used to attend church I always sang in the choir or played my violin. Guaranteed seating! Sometimes for three services on Christmas eve. We didn't have assigned seats in the choir loft - it depended on who was singing solos, or needed to get out to be a chalice bearer, etc.

I sang in the choir for a bit in school. Wish I'd stuck with it.

Maybe I'll get the guts to approach my choir at church ;-)

I sing in my church choir, one of two female tenors. It's really a wonderful experience.

Maddielee, just to be clear, my post sharing the link wasn't directed at you. My apologies if it appeared to be - I can see how it came across that way. Hopefully some here found it enlightening. I did.

Oh dear. No offense taken Ida. But thanks for being concerned for my feelings.

ML

The Catholic church associated with my kid's school allows the Christmas eve front pew to be reserved via an auction and the proceeds are donated to the school. This year the pew raised $600.

I think saving an entire pew during a crowded church service is rude. If it is important to you that your large family sits together, then you should make arrangements to meet in the narthex or travel to church together. That being said, people that don't go to church together often are probably anxious and might do things that they normally wouldn't do so things will go smoothly. Of they might always act like special snowflakes.

I think pew staking and disdain for people that don't regularly go to church unfortunately feed into the negative stereotypes that non church goers have about Christians.

Perhaps you're not aware, but in the Jewish faith, one must have tickets for the High Holy Day services, and in order to get them, one must be a member, which means paying dues. I was shocked when I first heard about this in college, but they do gave a point - regular, supporting members get the seats.

Owning pew boxes hasn't been around for years and years. My late husband's church in Bedford NY still has pew boxes but they are not owned by anyone. Interestingly, the church cemetery us set up the sane way - boxes that hold 6 plots, surrounded with boxwood and other low hedges. If one is cremated, a box will hold many more.

I don't think anyone minds about the seat-saving in my church. At least I've never heard any complaints.

In my area, tithing is also enforced (quite strictly) by some congregations, and based on polite conversations that have come up in past years, those families who offer more are extended certain privileges. A reserved row at Christmas wouldn't be out of the question. As much as we want to view religion as separate from economics and politics in this country, both come into play regarding the survival and livelihood of many churches. It is what it is.

I will say that the Episcopal church in my town has an excellent reputation of inclusiveness, especially when the Roman Catholic church abuses came to light and many parishioners sought a like-minded alternative. (ETA, my Episcopal church doesn't tithe... this was a separate observation based on comments above about it.)

I don't doubt that congregants of most faiths have curried favor for money. It's a tale as old as time;-)

I've never experienced forced tithing, but anecdotally remember the church my family belonged to growing up would publish quarterly newsletters, in which you could find the donation tally for each family.

Terrible practice!

As I sit in over crowded C&E Masses I wonder where the empty church is. LOL. It just seems logical that if our church is soooo packed with family etc.then there is a church SOMEWHERE that is rather empty. I know I am being optimistic about how the FULL churches are usually--most don't go "other Sundays".