Yeah. It's supposed to be 14k after propane conversion. It would hit the pan if it was high enough. New development ... While cookimg dinner all four burners simultaneously, suddenly are now half yellow. Argh! So ... Something is really wrong along the line. Just don't know where!

Yellow flame indicates insufficient air in primary air/fuel mixture (too rich).

A couple of questions:

1) Were the air shutters properly adjusted so that, at highest gas flow, they are open as wide as possible, just before the flames start separating from the burner and get noisy?

2) When the pressure was measured on the output of the orifice, did they have the other burners turned on? It may be that the internal regulator actually cannot maintain its set pressure at higher than zero gas flow rates.

FYI -- here is a good article on orifices vs gas pressure vs BTU's:

http://www.wardburner.com/orificesmessing.html

I thought yellow meant more air, like a candle?

1. What are air shutters? Do you mean a regulator, or do you mean when you take the dials off the burner controls and adjust output?

2. Trying to boil with only 1 going, so not a factor but also yes we took pressure when all burners are on and it was still above 10 so in proper range.

zellycat, from the owners manual (http://downloadcenter.samsung.com/content/UM/201605/20160526115933053/NX58H5_Series_AA_DG68-00526A-05_EN-MES-CFR.pdf) , it does not look like your range has all that much in the way of burner adjustments (e.g. air shutters). The troubleshooting guide seems to point to gasoline orifice size or LP supply pressure and indicates "contact your installer". Make sure they also check the gas line connections to and in the range - too much air in the mix from somewhere.

The air shutters are adjustable openings around the end of the burner's gas tube where it connects to the orifice. They determine the fuel/air ratio going to that particular burner. Lazy yellow flames are caused by too much fuel and not enough air. Active, noisy flames that separate from the burner holes have too much air in the mixture. The fuel/air mixture needs to be set correctly to produce optimum efficiency and heat output while minimizing the generation of carbon monoxide and soot.

Put a lid on the pot.

And the winner is Elizabeth. Obviously, even a few kBTU/hr will bring some quantity of water to a boil if the heat supplied to the liquid stays in the liquid and isn't radiated away by the pan sides or lost by water evaporation. To boil water in a large open pan may well require more BTU/hr than the rated heat flow rate of the burner under test. If pan covering doesn't cut the time down significantly, then we can assume that your burner's heat flow rate needs upgrading. The expected capability of stoves for common tasks such as boiling eggs or heating pasta water should be met by the appliance if properly functioning.

A useful test would be to measure the time (starting with near room temperature water) for a measured quantity of water to heat up a few degrees. Then use the definition of BTU to see at what rate heat was input to the water. By measuring near room temperature, radiation and evaporation losses should be small.

kas

Are you trying to boil softened or treated water.

Soft water or water with the minerals removed may not come to a rolling boil.

I just did a test on my Bluestar RCS propane range.

Exactly 3 quarts of (softened) water with an initial temperature of 72 degrees in an 8 quart, uncovered, All Clad, three ply, stock pot. On the 15K BTU burner on high, it took 14 minutes to reach a full boil (I am not sure if that is different than a rolling boil).

Edit: I am at 165 feet above sea level.

Here are a couple of photos:

Jim Mat: I won't question your comment on softened water (which has minerals replaced with minerals) as I don't have any to experiment on, but reverse osmosis water (nearly bereft of minerals) will boil with great vigor on my induction cooktop.

John, thanks for the test! The best buy tech replaced the stove regulator and it's still not working. Next up is the Samsung tech, the gas people and the geek tech all here at the same time. (Gas people's suggestion.)

Any possibility of propane contamination?

I asked the company and they said propane doesn't go bad but I wouldn't know how to second guess them.

I don't have direct knowledge about this but I have read that, although it doesn't degrade by itself, propane can become contaminated by substances that are not propane.

One such contaminant is water, which can potentially cause regulators, valves and orifices to freeze up and limit gas flow.

Try a Google search of "propane contamination".

This is a long shot but I thought it might be helpful to bring up anyway.

The reason that you don't know what John is talking about regarding 'air shutters' is that you (and almost everyone else) don't have them. Modern sealed burners are a royal pain and it is almost impossible to adjust them. My assumption is that they are specifically designed for natural gas. Those of us with propane are left with little option but to suffer with leftovers. Older design from the 50's (perhaps 1850's even) gave control of both gas and air while no air control is available with sealed burners and the only gas control is from the individual orifice screwed into the burner's center. Your only adjustment is to acquire other orifice sizes and experiment with larger holes until the flame tips begin to turn yellow. That would provide the best and hottest orifice.

It does appear that your flames could be set higher with such an orifice without turning them inappropriately yellow. I have had experience with two propane cooktops now. My Kitchenaid cooktop needed several orifice changes to decrease yellow flames while my newer and cheaper Whirlpool had well set options for high flame settings out of the box. [however it had/has horrible simmer settings and control].

My burners can certainly boil water. You might want to consider a return. However, this sudden (continuing??) change to yellow flames needs serious observation or repair.

Samsung repair, gas company and best buy geek tech will ask be here at the same time tomorrow ... We'll see! I wish I could borrow a converted cook top that was known to work as a control.

Chas, did you go against manufacturer recommendations for orifices?

Actually, since my KA flames were too yellow, didn't meet specs, and appeared to be a safety issue; kitchenaid sent smaller orifices. They have a safety department for potential dangerous (we might get sued) situations. Unfortunately, there is nothing unsafe about low flames (although you didn't respond about the sudden yellow flame thing).

On my new cheap Whirlpool unit, I in fact did swap out a few orifices for experimental purposes, but as I said, the originals were actually probably the best ones. In addition, my current issue is on simmer settings which are ALL WAY TOO HIGH. I actually replaced my super small burner orifice with a much smaller one to allow at least one burner to ALMOST have a simmer setting. Otherwise, I believe the original orifices are all back in. I occasionally think I should marginally increase my highest burner orifice for a little more oomph, but that would increase the simmer too.

(Sorry for not responding about the yellow flames - I missed if there was a question.)

Well ... Everyone was here but not all at the same time as Samsung was late.

Samsung tech (and engineers back at the ranch) say it is a gas issue. Best buy geek thinks they are on to something. Specifically, the piping.

The Samsung tech was rude and condescending and only said what was wrong once and wouldn't repeat it, "you'll get it wrong and I'll be blamed just tell them it's piped wrong".

Argh. But what I caught was ... It's 3/8 inch pipe from the tank. Has to be 1/2 minimum for this stove, for it to get the proper BTUs.

Then, the really big problem is that the pipe steps UP to 3/4". That evidently is a big no no that will rob you of the BTUs you need. You will still get a proper water column pressure reading at the burner, but not sufficient BTUs.

I have a call in to the gas company. Will see what they say.

Best buy geek says it is still a weird problem. He suspects it might be specific to this stove that the wrong size pipe and the step up is such a problem or he would see this issue more often vs once in 20 years. (I think a few of you suspected the fuel line.)

The size of the pipe from the tank can be much smaller if it is between the tank and the first gas regulator that the propane sees. This is because it is at much higher pressure (as high as 200 psi depending upon outdoor temperature). The propane pressure required by the range's internal regulator is only about 0.4 psi (11 water column) at full gas flow (all burners on). The internal regulator steps that down to 10 water column (0.36 psi) to feed the burners.

The bottom line here is that if the propane pressure at the burner orifice is at least 10 water column with ALL burners on full, the propane supply line is adequate for the installation. If the piping were the limiting factor, the pressure would drop below 10 water column at the orifice output at maximum total propane flow.

3/8th inch does seem too small, but one would think the gas company would have noticed. Also, if you were testing with only one burner on, that would probably still suggest another issue. That would certainly be true if you could determine if other propane draws were not running at that period.

You still didn't answer the question, but with everyone there, I suppose it is moot. You once wrote 'New development ... While cookimg dinner all four burners simultaneously, suddenly are now half yellow. Argh! So ...' The question was, was it a momentary yellow flame?? one half second? two seconds? or still happening (I suppose not)?

Boy, if it were me, I would certainly ream out your Samsung tech with someone or several people at Samsung. If piping is incorrect, the specifics of the error/s should be listed on an invoice that presumably should include a copy to Samsung.

The yellow has happened twice, not for a very long time.

The gas company says stepping up in pipe size isn't an issue since it is going from smooth copper to corregated line and you are supposed to step up in that case since corregated has more resistance, so you need to step up to accommodate the extra pressure to keep pressure constant along the line.

The gas company is calling the Samsung tech directly. Don't know if he will spill the info when there's no chance of anything "getting lost in translation" or not. Then gas company will call me.

Gas company wants to up the pressure (with another regulator in place) and rule out "enough gas" as an issue. Theoretically that should work,but I'll see what they say today, if the tech would talk to him.

It would be easy to demonstrate whether it's a propane supply problem or a Samsung range problem by just connecting the range to a portable propane tank with a 11" water column regulator (same as for a gas bbq grill). If that setup fixes the problem, responsibility for the solution lies with the gas company, otherwise it's on Samsung.

I was thinking bring in a converted cooktop, this sounds more practical. Will look into it! Thanks! Wish I'd had it the day everyone was here. John, would a portable propane tank have a line with a 1/2" internal diameter? (That's part of Samsung's argument that the line is too small regardless of pressure.)

The size of the line from a propane barbecue tank is determined by the outlet of the regulator that attaches to the tank. I have one that is 1/4" and another that is 1/2". Because it is such a short run from the regulator to the range, even the 1/4" would be valid for the test since it can provide about 60K BTU to a burner. In any case, you would need to collect the parts and assemble the regulator, hose, and fittings in order to connect it to your range. These are available at hardware or "big box" stores. Your propane supplier may already have all that is necessary.

Thanks John! I'm now more prepared to ask them tomorrow. I'll keep updating.

We did your test! And the stove failed. Here's what I wrote to hubby after the test ...

The copper line going from the tank to the gas line is less than half inch, but that is always the exact same size, every propane tank in the nation has that, they don't manufacturer the tanks and that valve coming off it any other way and that line carries 100 lbs of pressure until it hits the regulator and the stove can only handle 1/2lb of pressure. Then it's just a direct 1/2" internal diameter gas line to the stove. The amount of gas reaching a stove is a mathematical equation between gas line, material, internal diameter and length of run. All of which we way far surpass. (Our run is so short, the gas line should never have been questioned - always had enough gas and you are REQUIRED to step up in size when going from smooth to correlated so Samsung tech is VERY wrong anyway.) This test also eliminated the step up anyway. Ugh. Stove still doing same thing. So stove IS the problem.

The question now is replace it with same stove or different one?

What does Samsung say about the result of the test?

If they cannot establish that this specific range is defective, it seems likely that replacing it with another of the same model would end up with the same result.

Samsung doesn't use it's own techs, the help center that you call has just operators with scripts. Even the manager at the center has no way to contact the Samsung engineers who could talk about a real problem like this. "That number is only given to repair techs - call your repair company."

The tech support isn't done by Samsung but farmed out to different companies. The one I was assigned, Williston Park, the manager there also said they had "no way of reaching the Samsung engineers, not even their techs - call Samsung" (even though I told him Samsung told me to call him, his tech told me he had such a number and I witnessed him calling them).

Somehow I got him to agree your test made sense and I called yesterday to discuss the result, but as usual, he didn't call back and when I texted the tech directly he insisted there's nothing wrong with the stove and "call Samsung". So ... I've heard Samsung support is horrible and seems it's true.

So it does seem foolish to try the same stove again, I agree, but the stove is THE top rated stove on Best Buy with a LOT of user reviews, so it's all just incredibly super weird. (And fits the granite opening and had the features I want at the price point I can afford.)

I might see if they will upgrade to the higher model when they replace it.

So ridiculous!!

As chas045 assumed above, it may be that this range model was designed for natural gas, with propane conversion being a poorly executed afterthought. The reviews may not be representative of using it with propane.

FYI, range widths are pretty much standardized. A 30" range is made to slide into a 30" opening. Most I've seen are actually 29 7/8" wide to leave a 1/16" gap on each side. Your Samsung is spec'd at 29 6/8" wide for a 1/8" gap on each side of a 30" opening.

The Frigidaire I'm looking at is exactly 30" and the space might be exactly 30", which wouldn't work, so worried.

Anyway, wanted to ask ...

Is that "gas pipe" the smooth copper part coming directly off the tank, before the regulator, in my kitchen picture above? (The one the gas guy says never ever comes in any size other than 3/8"? Except for massive commercial stuff.) Or is the "gas pipe" the part that comes after the regulator, outside your house and then connects to your flex line?

The installation manual doesn't elaborate, doesn't even mention it in the text.

The "gas pipe" is the network of pipes that go from the output of the whole house pressure regulator to each gas powered appliance.

Here is the sequence:

Propane Tank --> 3/8" pipe (high pressure) --> House regulator (reduces pressure to 1/2 psi) --> "Gas Pipe" network (preferably 3/4") --> (Each appliance) --> Shut off valve --> Flex Connector (at least same size as appliance input pipe) --> Appliance input pipe.

What model Frigidaire are you considering?

OK thanks. That confirms all my pipes (two) were correct during test. Argh. The sweet home recommended one. But might just replace with same model. Picking up new pack of orifices tonight just in case there was a bad run of orifice packs.

http://m.thesweethome.com/reviews/best-electric-and-gas-ranges/

A couple points. I just went back to the pic. in the original post. It shows a high burner with somewhat high flames. I would hope that they could go higher, but they appear to be reasonably high enough that they could boil water, perhaps not 3 qt of water (that's a lot) though in an open pot. ElizabethA on dec 23 had a good point by suggesting using a pot lid. I also don't think its really fair to compare this stove to the Bluestars that a couple of you have. I don't think my high flame settings would reach a pot.

All that said, the flames are completely blue. If that burner had a slightly larger orifice, it would have bigger flames with more heat. Bigger orifice still and it would have even larger flames with little yellow tips and still larger orifice would produce big ole' yellow flames that could take your arm hair off. The problem is that orifices aren't usually sold by hole size although samsung or Whirlpool carry various sizes. A big burner like yours might have an 0.115 ( cm I think) hole and you might need an .118. With smaller burners like were over sized in my old Kitchenaid, I went down from .070 to .069. That is so small a difference that you can't see it (hard to see .115 vs .118).

Some gas fitter plumbers carry a set of little drill bits of all sizes from .050 to .120 or so. You can buy these sets, but they are ~$100 a set. Perhaps such a plumber would be willing to work on your burners but the problem is that if they over size an orifice just a smidge, you get the big bad yellow flames. I think they also can get blank orifices so you can restart when you screw up.

I would think if you threaten to return your stove that someone would be willing to find someone with orifice skills to adjust yours.

FYI, the installation manual for the Frigidaire model FGGF3058RR lists the width to be the standard 29 7/8" despite the Home Depot website listing it at 30".

http://manuals.frigidaire.com/prodinfo_pdf/Springfield/316903004.pdf

Oh great about the size! And great idea about increasing the orifice size! All good advice except for the pot lid - fortunately no one in the help chain thinks we should have to put a lid on to make it boil. So, phew! (We've tested all manner of different pots and amounts of water.)

Also fortunately the Best Buy sales team and manager have been fantastic. So when the orifices were out of stock, he just agreed to exchange the stove and upgrade it to the next higher model at no additional charge to us (so we don't have the exact same model) and see how that goes. We're covering the install/conversion but the gas company is being really sympathetic as well and charging us a return customer rate.

It comes next week. Maybe I'll see if we can have larger orifices an hand. Best Buy is really willing to help and committed to figuring it out. Definitely more than I can say for Samsung or Williston Park.

Thank you for the orifice tip and size look-up so I can be prepared with two back-up plans!!

Sounds great. FYI, your installation manual should list the regular orifice sizes that the installer is supposed to use in place of the natural gas orifices normally already installed. If they were still too small, you would have a numeric idea of a next bigger hole. BTW the hole size is usually marked on the top or side of the orifice. On my new cook top, it came with a kit with several different orifices to cover variations in different but similar models. With those and my orifices from my broken older cook top and the extras that KA sent, I had several close sizes (for a couple burners) with trial and error to trim my stove up.

Oh man, chas you were lucky! Wish Samsung came with options. I've had no luck with getting variations beforehand, hopefully it will simply work this time!

If you start experimenting with larger orifices, be careful to not go bigger than what the sealed burner's design can tolerate. If you have an improper air/fuel ratio causing incomplete combustion, dangerous amounts of carbon monoxide can be produced.

Here are some links with more info:

https://www.abe.iastate.edu/extension-and-outreach/carbon-monoxide-poisoning-checking-for-complete-combustion-aen-175/

http://www.elgas.com.au/blog/1585-why-does-a-gas-flame-burn-blue-lpg-gas-natural-propane-methane

Thanks for the links! Hopefully, the stove will just work!! LYK this week.

Well. Last week the stove was out of stock. Yesterday the one-higher model Samsung NX58H5650ws arrived, today it was hooked up. It still doesn't give a rolling boil on any burner. Maybe these stoves work great with natural gas and stink with propane or maybe Samsung has paid off a lot of people to write good reviews but it's boiling down (intended) to look like a Samsung issue. Perhaps a design flaw with too-small orifices.

Frustrating. Probably going to try the sweet home Frigidaire. Argh. I might start a new thread in kitchens asking for Frigidaire vs GE or something. I'm so beat over this.

I'll update when there's news.

The flames look like they are too low to heat the pan. In the manual there should be a way to raise the flame. It is usually an easy adjustment with a screwdriver....I can't tell what model you currently have but on the frigidaire it discusses how to adjust the low setting in the installation instructions.

Unfortunately, I've been told by all three techs that it only adjusts the low end, the simmer. There's no option in that adjustment (the screw driver) to affect the high end of the flame at all. But I'll check the manual!

Just want to say thank you to everyone for everything so far!!

If your frustration at least does finally boil over I'd recommend an induction stove replacement. Frigidaire has one and every home has electricity to power it. Faster to boil than gas and levels change near instantly. More efficient also with no waste heat into your space. That means you can use a smaller exhaust fan too.

It will be super frustrating since we paid to put the gas line in but yeah, I'm hoping we can manage to upgrade to induction if we can't get this to work.

OK, finally decided to boil some water. My largest regular sauce pan is 3qt. I didn't fill it so it probably started with 2.5 qt of hot tap water; I was interested in maintaining a rolling boil, not the total time. I did notice that it took ~10 min. to bring that water to the rolling boil on my largest burner that is listed as 13000BTU on propane. I then added a cup or so cold water and reheated on my 11000btu burner with good rolling boil. I then moved to my lower 7000BTU burner (didn't add more water) and it went back to a boil, but not really rolling boil, but more than a simmer.

So yes, I guess you have a problem. Back to orifice sizes: (while this may not help since the biggest orifice in use doesn't do the job) but you could probably do a simple check of whether a larger orifice would help with what you already have, at least assuming that you have a little kit of tools including a small socket set of metric sockets. The orifices usually use 7 or 8mm sockets for removal or insertion (I forget which). My suggestion would be to remove the largest burner's orifice and place it in the next smaller burner. If that medium burner does not have big yellow flames ('though it probably will: watch your arms) but still shows mostly or all blue, then you know that your burners probably all needed larger orifices. If that test medium burner now boils water, you would assume that it now had a better and hotter gas/air mixture that even overcame the burner being smaller. As I suggested at the paragraph top, that is unlikely, but you might learn something.

If you try this, you might want to put a dab of butter or something in the little socket to hold the orifice in the socket while removing and reinserting (no butter in the actual hole!).

Right now, I'm waiting for the manager at best buy to check around for ideas and get back to me. But I'll pass this along to hubby if he's feeling experimental ...

Do you have a hood? From where does it get its make-up air?

I’m having the EXACT same issue with my Zline range and propane. Had propane and stove folks out over and over again. Replaced regulator and orifices. Nothing helps 😩