Yes I think a lot of roses arrive infected. You are not dreaming or making it up, happened in my garden, too, so--rant away!

Sadly, many rose growers are on the edge of bankruptcy. Horticulture is a tough business.

I am of the opinion one has to find uninfected stock to buy, and once in the garden, be very careful not to damage the roots--the infection enters that way.

I am so sorry Patty. What a nightmare. I too would feel terrible about this. I hope the company does something for you.

I agree hoovb just wish there was an effective way to deal with cleaning up the soil. I'm sure many wish this as well. Thanks

Sheila, I won't actually contact anyone on this I'm sure they and all involved have suffered from what happened. Most likely all involved have learn a valuable lesson on cutting corners.

I just hope you told them what happened, so they can avoid it in the future. It irritates me that RMV has not been cleaned up too.

I agree that you absolutely should mention it. People have a strong tendency to sweep unpleasant things under the carpet,which is natural but can prove also very harmful.The only way to be completely sure that they truly DO know about it and therefore can "learn a valuable lesson" is if you actually say it in so many words; they need not be angry or polemical words,but the problem should be stated clearly, I think.

I have had a similar experience...won't elaborate here, but have asked myself the same question:

"Why isn't galltrol available to the public anymore."

I have 2 "infected" beds and have tried replacing the soil, removing every plant, bleaching the soil, and subjecting the new bare-roots to a bleach solution soak. This has been a miserable multi-year trial, and it's hard to know if my efforts have been successful because the affected portion of the plant is hidden from sight.

My mom is friendly with the owners of a farm/nursery and has inquired with them about securing a supply of galltrol for me. Do you think this is a reasonable approach? Has anyone else considered this or had experience using galltrol that can offer pros/cons?

I definitely think this is a viable approach. Had the farm in question been treating their cuttings this would not have happened. Speaking of grafted I would assuming that the variety to be grafted has come from the same farm. Therefore is infected anyway.

My heart goes out to gardeners, hybridizers and agents of large overseas hybridizers who placed their ( can't come up with the right word ) in the hands of this grower.

I've been wondering for a while now why no one has announced intros for 2017. I was really looking forward to a couple new roses. In my opinion it's a mess and for small hybridizers devastating.

Sheila, I feel the same about RMV yet in a strange twist of faith. Gardeners have allowed it to take place. If all who are able searched for a why to voice their irritation it most likely would have happened long ago. Bottom line is it takes money. A shame things did not change before the economy went sour.

Trust... I think trust is a good word. Or, confidence? Anyway, I totally understand Patty. I also think you should go out of your way to let the company know of your experience. You can be totally nice about it even though it's so upsetting. I also learned a valuable lesson this past season... I purchased a NOID red rose from Home Depot. I did not inspect it thoroughly enough before purchasing it. When I got it home the blooms were covered in tiny bugs. I determined they were spider mites running around the blooms because they didn't fly when I blew on them, so I sprayed it thoroughly with water for a week keeping it in "quarantine." I put it in with my other roses (potted) and I didn't see any spider mite activity all summer. But, I now wonder having lived with an infestation of thrips all summer if they came from a plant I brought home? I don't know if they're chili thrips or not. I live in the middle of nowhere. I don't have close neighbors at all. Not that they can't travel, but it was a small disaster. I learned to think about purchases - where they come from and also to really inspect a rose bush before bringing it home or immediately after receiving one by mail. I suspect you may feel the same way. It may be worth really inspecting the plants. Maybe even breaking away some soil at the base of the plant to look for gall. I'm putting your experience, along with my full, detailed top bush inspection for disease or inspects in my mental check list when purchasing. Thanks very much for your share. It's appreciated.

First of all thanks everyone.

Second I may email the grower just to remind them from a gardeners perspective of how devastating this can be. I'm fortunate to have a little extra space here. Many gardeners do not. I'm not alone though as this is a major rose grower that ships country wide. Many of these roses are the ones that do so well here. There must be something about Galltrol takes it unsafe in the hands of the average gardener. Sure wish a few gallons of it could land here thou.

I had a similar experience towanda in that I imported my own rose midge. Once I learned how to recognize the subtle signs It was easy to see. Roses purchased locally are all infected. A few years ago while at a major rose retailer who also supplies many Chicago nurseries it was plain as the nose on your face. They all had rose midge. No wonder the increase in activity in my garden. Now I need what I don't like is a good drought to bake the top soil and kill most of them off.

That is truly awful, Patty. I'm so sorry. That's a lot of wasted money, time, hard work, and garden space. Really disturbing knowing that these are sold in so many places. The average nongardening homeowner won't even know what's gone wrong. They pick up a couple of pretty roses at the big box store, put them in the ground, and wonder why they decline. All the while infecting their soil, without a clue. Perhaps they then purchase another Rose and plant again in that spot. The Rose declines, and we have another person that swears off roses because they are "too fussy" or " I just can't grow roses". The whole industry suffers from something like this. What a shame. Now I'm worried about some of my roses purchased last year. I am really thankful you let us know. Lisa

Thank you Lisa. You know I'm not a person in the know so to speak. Just an average gardener thats been growing roses for twenty years and lucked into finding the problem. You just don't find 8 cases of gall all in the same year or life time even. It certainly did not take much thought to know that they came this way. I do 90% of my purchases from good on line nurseries. I researched the common wholesaler which led to a common growing field. All I can say is if any new to you roses haven't grown or bloomed much. Maybe they just are not as healthy as they should be. Maybe a rose is suddenly pulled off the market. The nurseries could not have known nor the hybridizers or agents. But they know now which will be brave enough to step forward to allow us to know what roses where affected. Then we can keep an eye on them. Or at least make an informed decision on what we choose to do with it. I guess this would be impossible without risking losing your lively hood. I feel for them.

I certainly hope no nurseries go out of business we can not afford to lose any more. I will continue to purchase from the same nurseries. I'm confident they have caught the problem now. Heads should perhaps roll at the growing fields.

Patty I am so sorry to hear of your experience. I can only imagine how much trouble this has been for you. I know some about this problem but, there are people who with more expertise. Yes there has been problems with crown gall in production in the USA for a long time but the problem has become far more difficult in the past five years. Crown gall is a widely distributed pathogen in soils throughout the USA and affects a lot of plants beside roses.

There is a lot of effort and money being spent by rose producers trying to control the problem, but no, not all rose producers are doing this.

The pathogen enters the plant when it is wounded. So yes at the time cuttings are taken it can be spread or it can be spread by taking cuttings or budwood from infected plants. It can also enter the plant at harvest when the roots are cut in harvesting the plants. I always thought that grafted roses had less of a problem, but recently I have heard it is a problem with budded plants too.

So what should you do? I don't know about using bleach on soil or how effective that will really be in the long run. If it was me I would dig out the soil where the infected plants were and replace it with clean soil. I would replant roses, but not bareroot roses that have fresh wounds. I do think that growing roses in containers to establish them first might be helpful as you would plant a rose that had no wounds from which the pathogen can enter. I am sure you know to sanitize your clippers when pruning in between each rose you prune. Some roses with crown gall can not show symptoms and you will only see it when you dig the rose up that it becomes evident or it can even be present in the plant without any obvious symptoms.

We do know there is some genetic disposition to crown gall, but no in depth genetic studies that I know of. UC Davis is doing research on crown gall in walnuts which is quite commercially problematic. University of Oregon is also working on crown gall problems. As a producer you can send tissues samples to Oregon State to test for the presence of crown gall in rose plants. We know some rose producers are doing this regularly to monitor the production. Some are using Galltrol and have really improved sanitation in the fields to reduce the problem.

I don't think anyone is intentionally selling roses with obvious galls, but often it can be silent when the plant is harvested and then really explode after harvest. I understand that in hot climates it is a far more active pathogen. I do not think the problem is easily controlled and I cannot say I think one retail nursery is better than another.

To date we have not seen crown gall in our fields and we check pretty carefully when we harvest plants. We have sent samples to Oregon State and so far everything is clean. That does not mean I think we are without risk as this pathogen can exist in all soils. Of course we do not sell bushes, but we do send propagation materials to other nurseries so we do need to be as careful as we can be.

I think the reason Galltrol is not readily available is it is very expensive.

I hope this explanation is helpful and i hope you will replant roses without further problems.

Patty, I can't believe what you've gone through. I wish there was something more I could do for you other than express my sympathy and support.

The rose grower/supplier who was the source of the diseased roses needs to know what they have done to you. The wrong you have endured is a crime, a worse crime if they knew they were selling diseased roses. What was done is a criminal act, and needs to be handled as such.

Take courage and treat this as a crime against you.

Thank you Moses and Chris right at this moment I must get on with Thanksgiving dinner or I shall be take everyone out to eat. In the mean time Chris I will trust in your reassurances that Kordes at least has done the best they can. For this I thank you.

I truly value everyones opinions.

Again I want to make sure that you DO say something to the nursery; it's imperative, it's not just you "whining"(SIC!!!) about a piece of bad luck; this sort of issue goes way beyond one lone gardener's bad experience; it effects everyone who is interested and has love and care for gardening, the environment, everything. I think this kind of thing can only be stopped if enough people are viligent and keep their eyes wide open when purchasing and don't hesitate to complain (really, "denounce" would probably be a more appropriate word in this sort of case!) when they find they were sold infected plants. So, please, Patty, DO contact the nursery and tell them exactly what happened, as you told it here. I think it is so important to comunicate and NONE of what you said was abusive, polemical, rude,none of all that. Your speaking out now will help everyone in the future,IMO. Best wishes!

Patty: Who is the entity you have identified as being responsible for the crown gall in your 8 roses? The provider of propagation materials? The grower/producer? What is the NAME of the responsible party? I see that you mentioned "the cats out of the bag now anyway", and you refer to "star" when discussing an apology.

Patty, you are too kind and understanding. We get used to substandard practices and products in life when we shouldn't.

You stated that there are so few retail/online sources of roses left that are accessible to the home gardener, and that is true. Registering a complaint and demand for compensation for your loss, by you and others in your situation, may result in more nurseries folding, but they deserve to!

How can any industry survive selling a seriously defective product? No one comes out ahead. Are we to accept diseased roses as a necessary byproduct of poor propagating methods just to keep an industry going?

Americans are extremely ingenious and face insurmountable obstacles, but through determination and creativity, victory is achieved. The rose industry can do the same instead of wining about a problem. Just fix it! It can be done! Do it, or get out of the business and let others rise to the challenge.

Laziness and greed, coupled with a presumptive attitude of producers that the consumer will accept inferior products because we are the only "game in town," is part of what you (we), are dealing with. I say, "Oh yeah?". Just watch me keep my shekels in my pocket! That it s my most effective passive defense.

Sorry to hear this news but I would let the company know for sure Patty...Best wishes!

A well known and respected hybridizer already did say it. They are a position to be able to speak their mind and he was not very happy. No one who read that has come to comment. Maybe do to dumb luck I new first. Do to getting 3 sets of roses from three separate nurseries it was easy to track down. Thought I only had five until I dug up the Icecaps

Chris is the only one to come and make any comment at all. I don't want folks to be angry with me. At least twice in my 60++ years I jumped into something only to regret not waiting for sometime to pass. I'm just a little lady gardener. If others are not discussing this openly should I? Just thought others should know that more than a usual problem occurred so watch your roses.

In the past I could tell when outlets here were buying from Star because the plants were leafing out with obvious mosaic infestations.

Thank you, fig-insanity, for clarifying that. When I read Patty's post, I was wondering if her investigation might have identified "Star Roses and Plants" (the breeder, hybridizer, and relationship cultivator) or Ivy Acres (the grower of a few roses purchased by me this year) as the responsible party.

Patty: were your roses budded or OR?

All of those were own root. Five were own root bare root. I see that I neglected to mention this was on the Antique Form. I was pleased to see it mentioned as it confirmed what I had suspected. I am sadden for hybridizers that lost so many of their soon to be released introductions. It's gotta hurt. I'll be honest here I felt sad for myself also. Anyway after Kim brought it up. I thought one day how many might not know and the roses are growing in your yard. Many of my on line nurseries are supplied by Star. Hundreds of thousands of roses so sad.

rifis if your still wondering. Greenheart Farms supplier to Weeks and Star ect. supplies one wholesaler in NJ. That is Mc Hutchisons there should be a way for you to find out if they sell to your Ivy Acres. Best of luck to you.

http://www.greenhousegrower.com/business-management/finance-operations/perpective-dave-foltz-president-of-ivy-acres/

Could someone please provide a nice flow diagram (or equivalent) showing where (and with what propagation material) Patty's crown gall originated, as well as the subsequent propagation steps, leading to the finished product(s) which she purchased? In whose soil is it thought to have originated? Am I correct in assuming tissue culture processes were not involved?

Some states have laws that prohibit the sale of sick plants. Plant inspectors can be contacted....these are the people with the USDA who sign off on greenhouses.

The state of Tennessee publishes a list of all greenhouses and nurseries, wholesale and retail, that have been inspected.
Sometimes it may help to tell the inspectors what to look for. and sketch out for them the flow pattern that starts at the propagators.....to the interim growers...to the retailers...to the home gardener.

My plants all seem to have originated at Greenheart Farms. Then spreading out to what they call brokers perhaps they are called interim growers. I received apparently all ready galled rose from 3 separate good own root nurseries. No blame on them what so ever. Grafted and own root follow the same trail. Here they are.

3 Icecaps galled discarded

3 gall same variety won't name yet

2 Lemon Splash galled discard shortly

2 Mother of Pearl 1 sick 1 fine as of now Forgot about this one arggggh

Easter Basket Forgot this came to me from the same path. It did not do well this year can't check now until spring. Please please be o'kay.

The following also come from star but have been healthy in my yard.

6 Carefree Celebration for a hedge

6 double Pink Knock Out

3 Tequila Supreme

Bolero

Pink Drifts many planted between taller roses

Most if not all of my Kordes roses. Lordy I hope Chris is right and all of these escaped harm. They would never understand how devastating this would be.

I'm thinking the rest are likely fine. Maybe not Easter Basket thou.

My little sticky fought and won the battle for life and was beautiful. Has to be clean.

Who did you buy the Kordes from? I probably would know where they cam e from and where they were grown.

Go Sticky, Patty! My Shorty DeLizy has also made a comeback from his sad dieback that had him pruned down to a nubbin. He shoot up a couple of good basals.

Chris, They have all come from Chamblee's, Northland Rosarium and Roses Unlimited. I'm holding me breath.

Sheila don't you just love it when a rose battles so hard and wins.

I forgot Rural King a local store which renewed my love for these roses.

Yours would be the first complaint for products from those vendors. Patty I do not think this is as wide spread as you seem to think this is. All of those vendors do their own propagation and also buy in some stock.

What is the reference to hybridizers losing varieties from this? I do not understand. who is it and can you provide a link to what you are referring to?

Chris: You mentioned earlier that you check for crown gall when you harvest plants. By plants, do you mean roses? If so, do you mean dig them out of the ground and examine roots (when you say "harvest").?

Yes it's on the Antique Forum. I have a grafted bare root question. Nov 11th 2016

I have had no problems at all from these 3 nurseries or any of my Kordes roses yet. I love these nurseries and was fairly sure that they still did their own cuttings. You had asked where I purchased so I answered. But if no problem how on earth can someone receive 9 galled roses. It just doesn't happen without a problem.

Those nurseries where were I purchased my Kordes roses not the galled roses. It was simply that many are grown at the same farm.

This is why I mentioned it's not always a good idea to speck up. Beginning to regret this all ready. Some one is going to get hurt and I don't like it at all.

Greenheart Farms - Terms & Conditions

Patty - they are not grown at the same farm. Most of the on-line own root nurseries root their own roses then direct stick in bands. They do get some stock from Greenheart at times, but many do their own propagation from stock plants they have on site. We restocked Greenheart with all new cuttings this spring from our stock of Kordes. The reason to do this is to make sure the genetics are still fresh and to make sure we have clean stock every 2 years or so. We and Greenheart spend a lot of time and $ on the project.

rifis yes I mean roses. We grow about 5 acres of stock and research roses. We do harvest plants to send to growers that need the genetics, to introduce new varieties and to send for testing and/or to botanical gardens. This is when we are looking for the galls. We also have had materials tested at Oregon State for crown gall in stems too.

Patty I do not know how you received so many plants. I am still not clear on where you bought the plants with gall. Sounds like it was pretty variety specific. Please understand that crown gall exists in a very wide range of soils in N. America. The contamination could of happened anywhere in the chain of production. It can also exist in garden soils. It has always been a problem in roses. That said producers need to use the very best clean plant techniques to minimize the problem but I do not believe it can always be 100% prevented.

I had a rose with gall recently. Fortunately for me and my roses, the gall wasn't on the roots, but on a cane above ground. It was a recently bought rose, so I am sure it had it when I bought it in the Spring. I cut off the galled cane a few inches below the tumor and so far it seems ok. Patty, I am so sorry for your loses.

Relax Chris as I said I have had NO PROBLEMS with the above nurseries. They have been my absolute favorites for 20 years.

I only had 9 cases of gall. All came own root bare root. I have not doubted your word. Please give me some equal consideration. You ask how could I have 9 cases of gall. Thats easy to answer there was a problem somewhere. One case in a year I assume my yard. 9 cases all own root bare root is likely a problem.

It took all the nerve that I could muster to inform others that there was a problem. So they could check on their roses.

Just to clarify the other named roses above (not the Kordes roses) also came as own root bare root from three separate on line sources. All orders came separately all were soaked. No two orders were soaked together. I always add a little beach to the water to prevent any issues with soaking. From now on thou I intend to soak each rose separately.

Since they also came as own root bare root they I am somewhat more concerned with these. A few of these came in the same order as others that developed gall and soaked with others from the same order. If that makes any since at all. I just picked the wrong year to fill the rest of my yard with roses.

Wow Patty - sorry to be the person in the industry to answer your concerns. I think you were given a lot of consideration and answers.

I'm sorry Chris, for some dumb reason I thought you were thinking I was making some of this up. I seriously did not mean to hurt your feelings. Please accept my apology at reading you wrong.

I just reread your post and I did take it the wrong way. To be honest my infected roses came from Regans, Edmonds and Jung Seed. As far as I know they receive their bare root orders that are then placed in cold storage until delivery to the gardener. So if correct they could not have known they were infected.

So in a perfect world I wish I could know if the others are fine. Say like no gall pathogens likely in this or that cultivar but keep an eye on this other one. Sorry again that I messed everything up.

Patty, thank you for bringing this situation to our attention! Much appreciate your warning to be on the look out. You haven't messed up at all. Remember well the recent thread to which you refer, so here's the link.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/4276392/i-have-a-grafted-bare-root-question-please?n=13 

Looking for methods to treat gall, Galltrol usually comes up first, along with the difficulty of buying it as a non professional. http://agbiochem.com/ Other commercial products include Norbac 84C, Nogall & Diegall. https://pubs.ext.vt.edu/450/450-608/450-608.html Some sites recommend fumigation of the soil. Using a bleach solution on the soil doesn't seem effective from what I've read. You might contact your local ag representative to ask for their advice on how to treat your garden.

Only one case of gall here over many years & agree that your bad luck in getting so many examples in one season is highly exceptional. So sorry for the impact. And so grateful you've shared your experience. Do contact the nurseries to let them know as well. Sue

Just think of it, Patty. Who is the seller representing? The home Rosarian (you and rest of us), or the commercial industry?

I find it hard to believe that the sellers don't know they are selling diseased roses. We cannot assume they don't know, and if they don't know, they should. This does not excuse their responsibility. Their supposed ignorance is no excuse.

Who is the guilty party? Everyone along the way AFTER where diseased plant material first occurred in the growing to selling process.

I detect an attitude of, "Buy at your own risk, rosarian home gardener."

To some extent the rosarian home gardener is the testing ground of the rose industry.

Patty you did not mess up. I was just trying to understand what was infected. I would think the sellers did not know either as you evidently did not see gall on the roots when you received the plants. As I said it can be infected, but not showing symptoms and then really take off after planting. Knowing these were field grown helps. Yes you should tell the sellers what you have found. I do wonder if all these roses came from the same rose production field? Not something I would know but it could be traced back by the supplier to the 3 retail sellers. In truth I had not heard of a lot of crown gall problem this past season but it has been a significant problem in past years.