Depends on where you live I guess, but down here I have noticed roots will grow a little throughout the winter, even though what's above ground is dormant.

Really any time now - I'm not sure you need to be more precise :-) In most cases, the buds have already been set and root growth will be active until the soil cools significantly....usually not until December.

.....and in reality, total "dormancy" probably does not occur. But you get the idea and in general, like Gal said, you've got a good window here for planting. The questions you seek answers for are interesting but I'm not sure a lot is known there.

Heck, just get it in the ground. You're not doing it any favors by waiting.

The winter buds are the key factor. When these are mature then they send hormones to the root tips, which causes them to elongate. 60% of the annual increase in root length for the entire year occurs at this time. If you go to plant and it turns out the roots of the specimen are deformed by careless container culture - as is very often the case - then you have to correct this. And so, yes, it is just too bad about losing therefore all or part of the autumn root elongation for that year (cut roots will not regenerate until prompted by the opening of terminal stem buds in spring). In those instances where it would be a source of dismay or even a cause for property damage - or worse - it is more important to not be planting a tree or shrub that is probably going to girdle itself or topple - perhaps many years after planting, when the top has grown large and heavy.

Anything you have now that has had firm, fully developed dormant stem buds in place for awhile may have undertaken its seasonal root rush already, so that you have lost your window of opportunity for taking advantage of this - unless you can plant without cutting these back, spread them out into the new soil of the planting site without much other damage.

As mentioned previously any cold hardy plants you have should still be put in the ground now in preference to spending additional months stuck in pots, whether the perfect fall planting time for any individual specimen has passed or not.

Many species do not fair well with fall planting which essentially extends any transplant shock through the winter...if they survive that, they are good to go.

I say it depends on what you are planting (its hardiness), and where you live.

I'd say a lot depends on where you are getting the plants and what your weather. Is like. Best case scenario is after the trees dormant and any Summer drought is over but six weeks before the ground freezes solid. In some cases no such window may exist...if you are buying plants from places south of you they may not be dormant until after your ground freezes.

i would like to know at what stage of leaf coloring the tre sets terminal buds...before or after the leaves turn brown or fall off?

Yes: autumn planting is a USDA 6 and warmer operation (OP is indicating they are in "z6"). And if losses are not to be risked is limited to kinds of plants that are fully cold hardy in the climate where it is being undertaken. Winter is basically a time of hibernation, with roots not growing much, if at all in frozen or otherwise very cold soils. This is why bare-rooted woody plants (cane berries, orchard fruits, rose bushes etc.) intended for commercial sale are traditionally warehoused through the winter, shipped in time for spring planting - their pruned or otherwise diminished root systems will not start coming back (produce new roots) until the stem buds open in spring.

Northern adapted plants bud before the leaves drop. I've been working in nurseries and pulled balled in burlap stock out of sawdust beds, seen that the roots had grown through the burlap and out into the sawdust some distance as early as July I believe. In such cases the tops had quit growing and set bud well before this time. Summer drought adapted plants in particular will often stop making new top growth well before autumn.

Fall planting is more than just zone 6 and above. We do roughly 1000 trees every fall. A few species-it is true-don't take well to fall plantings. If I may generalize, it is the fleshy-rooted types that seem to resent fall planting. We don't do many magnolias up here but that's the kind of thing that should only ever be spring-planted. Freeman maples also do better spring-planted. But for a host of other species here in Z5, fall is the best time to plant.

Many Oaks (but not all) fair worse when planted in the fall versus the spring. Has a lot to do with a 2-3 week delay before damaged roots initiate new root tips and root growth ceasing at soil temperatures below 50-60F.

Koelreuteria, Liquidambar, and Magnoliaceae are others that are not big fans of fall transplanting. Planting in the fall anyway does not mean failure (depending on hardiness and where you live) but it won't be as productive as waiting until early spring.

In my experience (and my soil/area), it takes 4 weeks for roots to develop on a transplanted maple, so that it shoots new buds. Now I'm talking spring/summer plantings. But I try to use that as a guide so that fall planting (trees that can be fall planted) is only done if I figure there's at least a month before the ground is too cold for root progress. Your mileage may vary.

I'm interested in the general science of the question mostly, but last weekend I put in 2 pot growns, a Washington Hawthorn, fairly big tree, and a Black Maple, seedling size. I have a peach and a Red maple from last season to transplant to better spots, both a little above knee height I hope to dig out with soil ball intact.

If a massive amount of root correction is needed, wait until dormancy.

Fall planting as a basic or general practice is USDA 6 and above.

Fall planting is Ok in zone 5 too. I regularly plant container trees in Sep/Oct and have never lost one, including a few species that are often listed as spring-only like tuliptree, oak, and baldcypress. I think some of those guidelines were developed for municipalities planting large B&B trees. I would encourage other zone 5ers to try fall planting too, especially considering some of the discounts you see this time of year.

I'm z3b near z4a:

I put in a 7' But oak last fall (mid/late Sept?) dug from the woods. Had to cut the tap root 1-1/2 foot down. It kept it's full crown of leaves until frost and leafed out nicely this spring although with undersized leaves. I would think the time it had building roots all fall would give it a better start than having freshly chopped roots this spring. Or maybe the energy the tree used to make roots in fall left it a little weak starting out this spring? Anyone know how that works?

When it comes to pruning old growth roots in oaks if you remove a lot you can trick the tree in thinking it's a sapling oak trees control leaf growth by the age of the roots to keep them up right.

No harm to the tree but could take some time for leaves to be right size for tree. If you want to fix the problem start feeding the root system to promote feeder roots to harden slowly start building the root system back up

Bur oak 1 1/2ft tall 3 inch trunk...most the growing season leaves stay around a inch long towards dormant weather leaves get 1.5 inch long this all done by root pruning

Wish tapla seen this. Root pruning of potted plants is for bonsai! Not for plants you wish to grow! btw, nice bonsai tree. I am working on some bonsai myself.

I was explaining to Bill why his oak tree he dug out of the woods an planted in his yard had smaller leaves

BD: Thanks! I did some fertilizing early summer and the tree flushed more leaves. I think it will be fine next year. But I'd really like to know if fall planted trees use stored energy to grow roots before winter? And does it weaken the tree?

Yes. The same thing happened to me when I dug up a forsythia volunteer (while in full bloom). It really is interesting. It happens simply because the plant doesn't need any more foliage to make food.

Bill you're welcome. Now with your question we talking about digging trees up and replanting them in a new spot or we talking planting a tree that hasn't been in the ground.

Simple answer is yes roots will grow in the fall even some in winter as the temperature rise an falls.

Trying to explain in detail what is really going on so you have a better understanding you need to choose from dug up tree planted in new spot or a tree that never been in the ground..try to explain both at once I'd be writing a book.

Tree that you dig from somewhere and move to new location in the Fall.

When it comes to root growth most people will say depends on soil. When they say this their thoughts are aimed at the nutrients levels in the soil which plays a part in root growth but its a very small part. The number one thing that generates root growth are trace minerals found in ground soil, Why plants/tree grow faster in ground vs pots.

If the trace minerals are very high you'll find growth but will be mostly larger diameter roots cause they don't need to go far to pick up minerales. If low you'll find roots growing really long to find minerals.

When it comes to digging trees up for a new spot long as the roots wasn't damaged too bad you'll find root growth cause yoy disconnected the roots from its minrals but to so if it will effect health,depends for the most part root system is same size as the canopy. Take the bur oak i posted root system on it has no real permanent growth for roots its one big mat of feeder roots.

So root loss needs to be even in canopy pruning or it could make the root system stressed from running low trying to supple the larger canopy

when it comes to root pruning..in this case needing to cut to get out of the ground. The root being cut shouldn't be the same size or larger then the root its connected to or trunk of the tree.

If you find there is no way to dig it up without removing a root that could create some problems by the size of it. Plant it in a pot with no dirt just rocks. This will help keep root rot down an let the tree root have a chance to heal. When temperature drops place the tree some where it's not going to freeze but yet it's not going to get warm to the point it thinks it is spring.

Great way to boost root growth old gardening trick they call wonder water. Boil water on your stove for 5 minutes let it cool down. Try not to splash it around keep it calm an water base of tree with it.

water has lots of trace minrals in it but co2 an other gases traps them and the root system are unable to intake them.

Have any questions just ask.

OH MY GOODNESS! I'm appalled at the misinformation.

Thanks BD. I Always learn something when I hear it from someone that's been at it for a while. :)

You're welcome Bill. Make some wonder water you'll like the outcome. I use a outside turkey fryer so i don't have to move it far.

rhizo if you find my comment misinformed then you answer it i would like to see your thoughts on the topic.

Sorry to latch on to this thread but same topic....z8. We are under an extreme drought here in AL. I have a lot of volunteers that need to be replanted elsewhere....mostly sweet gums (Liquidambar styraciflua) and Tulip Poplar (Liriodendron tulipifera). Still green leaves with no indication of turning. Day time temps in mid 80s, lows in mid 50s. Once again let me stress that we are under an extreme drought (I have had no rain at my house in over 50 days. When would you transplant to new location??

After the leaves drop.

"But I'd really like to know if fall planted trees use stored energy to grow roots before winter? And does it weaken the tree?"

Short answer - no. Yes, they use some stored energy but it doesn't weaken the tree. As explained very clearly by Embothrium higher up in the thread, trees go through a very natural and expected period of root growth and elongation at this time of year. It really has nothing to do with soil nutrients or trace minerals - unless they are completely lacking - but is due to the natural genetic coding of the tree.

"So root loss needs to be even in canopy pruning or it could make the
root system stressed from running low trying to supple the larger canopy"

This just about completely backwards :-) The canopy is what supplies energy to the root system and it is NOT recommended to reduce the canopy size when transplanting. That tree/shrub needs every bit of foliage it has at is disposal to photosynthesize and generate energy which then supplies the roots with the power to regenerate. Note that this applies to planting or transplanting during the growing season. When fully dormant, there is less concern.

sowen18, if I were in that situation, I would wait until temperatures cool and some rainfall might be expected. In your zone, you should be able to move these volunteers at any time throughout the winter. Much less time pressure for you than those in colder zones :-))

gg, thank you so much for that answer.

So, can I assume then that a tree dug in the fall and transplanted would have an advantage over one that is dug and transplanted the following spring? (advantage meaning "head start")

I'm talking all things equal, same tree, same conditions, etc.

Hardy plants in cold climates effectively hibernate over winter. Like bears these store energy before entering hibernation and then live off it during the winter, "emerge" in spring in a depleted condition. So when there is cutting of the roots and digging of these plants in spring they are being impacted at a time of the year when they are low in energy.

However it is also true that the opening of stem buds in spring is what prompts the growth of new roots from cut root ends. So if dormant plants can be moved right before the tops come to life in spring then new roots will be generated immediately afterward. As with fall planting opportunity for success is maximized by timing it with specific relation to what state the stem buds are in.

Winter: Activity minimal or effectively non-existent, depending on how cold it is

Spring: Winter stem buds open, new shoots appear and may flower, new roots are formed

Summer: Flowering or fruiting may occur, roots grow some

Autumn: Fruiting may occur, winter stem buds form, existing roots elongate markedly (60% of annual total)

Spring shoot and root growth is caused by the opening of the winter stem buds. Autumn root elongation is caused by the maturing of the winter stem buds. At both times hormones are sent from the buds to the root ends which cause these to grow.

For modern, research based information see the print publications of Carl E Whitcomb (Lacebark Inc) - present at colleges with horticulture programs, including my local community college - the print publications and web pages of Linda Chalker-Scott (Washington State University), and the Garden Professors blog.

ok, good. thanks em,

The only reason I asked was because the trees I transplanted this spring, just as the ground was almost completely thawed and before bud break, came back to life and grew almost as if they were never moved. Although I sure there was some setback, it didn't appear to be much.

Now the trees I moved the previous fall, came back and grew but it seemed like those trees added about 1/2 to 2/3 as much new growth as the spring ones did.

So maybe I'm overthinking things again but it appeared that the fall ones did not do quite as good as the spring ones, even though the fall ones were in the ground longer and should have had a head start on root development.

But if they come back from winter in a 'depleted' state, that would explain that.

Edit to add: The more I think about it, we had very little snow cover last winter. That could've affected this slow comeback as even the trees that were in a couple of years took there time growing that spring.

When it comes to digging a tree up in the woods more time then not you have to cut a lot of roots to even get the tree up. Yes the canopy does feed the roots, the roots feeds the canopy one big happy family.

Roots control how big the canopy gets as the canopy controls how big the roots get.

Agree that digging from woods fraught with difficulty-rocks, roots, logs...and would point out too that mycorrhizae-those helpful fungi which long ago gave up their ability to decay wood in exchange for a cooperative arrangement with living trees. And it's no small part of the story, but quite beyond anything but cursory explanation here. So check it out!

The case of the clustered development-so unlike the place-at my works's holding nursery-whereby 50 really nice, fully leafed-out Schuettes oaks-having been grown in Root Makers but shipped in el cheapo black plastic...were inexplicably allowed to dry out badly...pretty much full leaf drop....planted in early June, watered in well once, never touched again....wet summer but nevertheless one or two dry weeks or possibly 2-week slots.. Trees fully re-leafed, look fantastic. One dead, one died back in June in holding place so 48/50 even with that dumb thing happening.

Incidentally, although RootMaker grown as I said, had thick band of ropey roots-usually 2 or 3-wound around at the top of pot. Most strange. Good crew-all need adjustments were made.

I attribute this overall success (so far) to good starch reserves in roots at time of shipping. That's pure speculation-no analysis got done.

Best time depends on where you live. Long cold winters with frozen ground, Spring. Cool winters with lots of rain and the ground rarely freezes (like where I live) Fall is great with early Spring next best. I have attached an article that explains it best:

http://www.gardenmyths.com/best-time-planting-trees/

This fall is not good for me, since we haven't really had any rain for two months. I will probably be November before I can plant anything.

Sowen, I would keep the ones you want to transplant watered and wait until it starts raining again. You sound like you live in the same general area as I do and it usually doesn't get real cold and stay cold until January. If you have pots and a place to store, I have had luck potting up and holding until time to plant.