Wow! Congrats, KD!! I love it when that kind of stuff happens. :) I did the opposite. Everyone keeps telling me I can substitute the discard for the same amount of water and flour in any old recipe, but whole wheat really is different. I used a recipe for white as a basic guide for the dough ball, but I think it wasn't wet enough. It was well risen, though, so I made rolls. They came out with a hard crust (I was aiming for crunchy) like good old fashioned bolillos. (Isn't it weird that all the old time tough crusts like bagels, pita and bolillos have gone by the wayside just as people's teeth have gotten so much better?) The inside is nice and tender, but I think they would have been better larger, with more soft crumb per hard crust. OTOH, I only know for sure because one fell on the floor as I was taking it out of the oven, so, of course, I had to eat it right away. :)

Lots of good advice already. Quick breads are all about PREVENTING gluten development. Therefore, low-gluten flour such as whole wheat pastry flour, spelt is another good wholegrain choice, and I often used a portion of rye flour in quick breads as another low-gluten choice, to achieve a tender crumb. Or if you are using a processed white flour try Southern all-purpose flours (which are milled from soft wheat varieties) like White Lily, Martha White, Gladiola or Red Band, which are better choices than even National brand all-purpose flour (which is milled from a mixture of hard and soft wheat). If you find you have tunnels running through your quick breads, you are over-developing the gluten - either by using a flour that is too high in gluten to begin with and/or over-mixing it. The Cook's Thesaurus was probably referencing making yeast bread with a low-gluten flour, not quick breads. In the world of baking science when we judge quick breads at fairs -- "crumbly" loaves of quick breads are caused by overbaking (which you indicated you did), too little liquid or fat, or too much flour (make sure you measure your flour properly - aerate, fill the cup with a spoon, sweep off the excess with a straight edge). I suspect baking it too long was the problem. Always check a quick bread (especially a new recipe) 10-15 minutes before the recommended time for doneness according to the recipe. You can use the toothpick method to check for doneness, or you can take the internal temperature with an instant read thermometer and most quick breads are "done" when the temperature reaches 210-degrees. Did you accidently use the convection feature if you have a convection oven, because that will speed the baking time. I'd also suggest getting an oven thermometer and check your oven for the actual temperature (and check it in several areas in your oven). It may be running a little hot. Although many (not all) quick bread recipes call for a 9x5-inch pan, it is important to use the proper pan size. Instead of a large 9x5-inch loaf, I prefer using either a Danish Loaf Pan or Tea Loaf Pan, which are long and narrow but hold the same amount of batter as a recipe that uses a 9x5-inch pan. The large slices from a 9x5-inch pan tend to break apart - especially if you try to cut thin slices, and are much too large for a serving - so they are generally cut in the middle into 2 pieces so they don't break down the middle. As an alternative to a 9x5-inch loaf, use two 7-1/2x3-1/2-inch pans (and reduce the baking time). These smaller loaves are easier to cut into thin slices. -Grainlady

@andersons21 - I only saw your reply now - sorry about that. Yes - by "put in water" I just fill the reservoir. (I don't have the plumbed in version of the oven.) I don't do it before preheating because somewhere in the Miele manual it mentioned that the oven works best with cold water. So I always add water at the last moment. Maybe they just meant not to use water that was sitting in your hot water heater. I have no idea. The manual is vague in many places. And yes on MaxiBroil -- the baking steel does reach a higher temp, and the oven spring is better. I use it for both pre-heating and the first cooking stage. When I've pointed an IR thermometer at the baking steel after preheating, it's something like 480-490F. I forget the exact figure, but it's significantly above 435F. I wish it got hotter too, but the interior of the oven is made very differently than a regular oven, so I suspect that's probably why it's limited. The same thing happens in the regular Miele oven (not steam) - the high broil settings let the baking steel reach significantly higher temps (~650F) than the highest setting on the oven (which I think is 575F). I have both ovens btw - and use the steel in the regular oven for pizza.

ann_t, you saw the shine! As my bread mentor, I sure wanted you do see my progress and am thrilled you popped in! I had a better photo showing the shine but didn’t upload it. I let this bread rise the same time, but the difference was the pizza stone and the grill – sure hope I can replicate it as we enjoyed in so much this weekend! I think you’ve done an amazing job at describing the uses of the pockets/holes, the flavor difference, texture difference. dcarch, as always, your words are so kind – thank you. I agree, a bread with only massive holes would be useless. It needs ‘pockets’! I admit, I am proud of this loaf. Ricky (fawnbridge), I’d never heard of ‘voonge’ but clearly I do it, a lot! We used this loaf to voonge gravy and bits from beef tips : ) Thank you for the kudos! mamapinky0 – wonderful descriptions of ciabatta and artisan breads – makes me hungry for it right now – and how blessed you are to have a bakery to make it for you! I like all breads – white and whole wheat sandwich for our lunches, and eggs on toast, savory for cheese and herb breads, uber-soft Hokkaido for melt-in-the-mouth dinner rolls and decadent French toast – and yes, even bread pudding. DH and I love the crust of artisan, the pockets that hold flavor, and the ability of this bread to hold up to moisture over regular sandwich bread – but the flavor is also quite good. We all have our preferences : ) Hi chas045! Seems you’ve been following posts! The credit really goes to ann_t, who in her recipe (link above) explains the entire process and includes wonderful photos. I thought it was the grill – my first pizza on the grill had nice holes and pockets accompanied with an excellent crust, but the 2nd was like my cast iron in the oven pizza… I suspect it’s the wetter dough, among other things. As with my first attempts decades ago with white bread, there came a point when it was muscle memory while kneading – it just felt and looked right at some point. Hopefully I can attain this over the next year on a consistent basis with artisan. annie1992, thank you! I’ve seen photos of your breads – and your bread always looks better than mine (and while it’s not about looks, when bread looks right, it tastes right) – and you explained it so well also, the artisan is chewier and more substantial. Chewier does not equate to ‘tough’ in case anyone who hasn’t tried it is wondering. . I started making artisan bread a few years back, but it was rather tasteless and touch, rather than chewy. The crust was like concrete also – and my pizza could not hold up to sauces, so I just stopped all attempts. ann_t’s tutelage and recipe have improved my recent efforts to the point we prefer this over sandwich breads now. I’m hoping others who want to try artisan breads will be encouraged to! I’ve learned some wonderful lessons in bread-making, but the biggest lesson which ann_t taught me: Don’t be afraid of the dough – it can take a lot!