Thanks Lisa. It's hard to get the gest of what is really meant sometimes. I also tend to say what's on my mind when it's on my mind; sometimes I'm not able to articulate it very well. I really do feel that way though based on my own experiences. The concern (and point of the post) is that it seems that there are a lot of "people" in the work force who are unprepared for real life scenarios.

BLFenton, Rosa Parks is a generation of yesterday and not IMO relatable to what is being argued. We can bring up one historical event after another to prolong the arguement. It doesn't help anything....lukkiirish

ALL historical events are important to remember and learn from! We build on these things, these struggles, otherwise what are we discussing here?

I think the best way to answer your question Cindy is that I would never not stand. I have a lot of love and respect for this country flaws and all.

I don't feel Rosa Parks was relevant to what Jane said. My opinion...

I think the best way to answer your question Cindy is that I would never
not stand. I have a lot of love and respect for this country flaws and
all.

Do you stand and put your hand over your heart in your own home ... when no one else can see you?

I thank my lucky stars that I am an American and love and respect my country wholeheartedly. I admire those brave enough to shake the status quo, because we each have that right. That is what being a patriotic American is all about.

"There are lots of ways to protest and to make a statement without offending."

If people decide to protest in order to try to right wrongs in this country, worrying about "offending" could easily stop anyone from taking action at all.

I think one chooses to be offended or not. Many, including me, are not offended, so who gets to decide what's offensive?

I also don't think people who choose to stand get to claim that they love this country more.

What I find somewhat alarming is that some people seem to be comfortable with legislating patriotic behavior in regard to a national song. Seems totalitarian to me. That is NOT American! Maybe they need to think this one through more carefully?

From my dictionary:

"Totalitarianism is a political system where the state recognizes no limits to its authority and strives to regulate every aspect of public and private life wherever feasible.[1] Totalitarian regimes stay in political power through an all-encompassing propaganda campaign, which is disseminated through the state-controlled mass media, a single party that is often marked by political repression, personality cultism, control over the economy, regulation and restriction of speech, mass surveillance, and widespread use of terror. A distinctive feature of totalitarian governments is an "elaborate ideology, a set of ideas that gives meaning and direction to the whole society."[2]"

The whole point of a protest is to make people in power uncomfortable. That's why it's a protest and not a party. You can't have an effective protest that doesn't make waves. Sitting for the national anthem is probably the mildest form of protest imaginable. I can't even think of one less disruptive. Nonviolent resistance is an extremely effective method of effecting political change and a lot of the freedoms you enjoy today such as the right to vote as a woman came from people protesting the established political order. And those suffragettes weren't politely smiling and handing out doilies for the cause.

Cindy, I answered the question. This isn't hot topics and I'm not going to go round and round with you.

I don't seem to have a way to explain the way I feel about this without it being taken into a completely different direction. We were brought up to appreciate this country and the benefits it affords us. I do it without even thinking about it and feel that especially someone who has benefited so greatly from this country should respect it as well. That's the way I feel, if you don't like it, that's your right but it's in no way "TOTALITARIAN" and I don't appreciate the accusation. The era that Rosa Parks lived in was beyond oppression (IMO) and didn't just need a conversation, it clearly needed to be changed. Is it perfect yet? No, but we have sure come a long way. And Rosa Parks certainly didn't benefit from this country the way Kaepernick has.

I often learn a lot from the different persectives and debates we have here, and a lot of times they will change my own views, but this isn't one of those times. Yes, we all have our first amendment right of freedom of speech and yes, protest brings awareness but what about social conscious? No one has said anything about how they feel about it inside, just that it's HIS right. I get that we have the right, but my opinion is based on social conscious. We have the right to do a lot of things, but that doesn't necessarily mean to do it is a good thing.

I read this article this morning and found the opinion interesting.

http://www.post-gazette.com/opinion/2016/09/08/Kaepernick-is-no-Rosa-Parks/stories/201609300018

Mr. Swaim comes off as a bit of a scold, IMO. I appreciate our president's comments much more than Mr. Swaim, it seems.

Unfortunately (or fortunately?), condescension from an extremely pale GOP speechwriter from SC (to Gov. Mark Sanford, no less) fails to lend any air of authority to that op-ed.

Should people be punished for such deliberate disrespect? Making it the law would seem to mean just that. As robo stated above, the point of protest & demonstration is to go against the prevailing norms, to upset the status quo.

From our nation's Bill of Rights (emphasis added):

"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience by in any manner, or on any pretext infringed.
The people shall not be deprived or abridged of their right to speak, to write, or to publish their sentiments; and the freedom of the press, as one of the great bulwarks of liberty, shall be inviolable.
The people shall not be restrained from peaceably assembling and consulting for their common good, nor from applying to the legislature by petitions, or remonstrances for redress of their grievances."

So there's proof of the unconstitutionality of such a law right there.

I believe our country's founding documents deserve much more regard than our national anthem & anyone's conduct when it is played.

Take it how you will, I don't know who's who and read the article without any bias or disdain for the writer. I think he the has a valid point. AND btw, , who's talking about punishment, don't recall ever seeing anyone even remotely imply anything about law and / or punishment in anything I've read here or written. Now if his employer wishes to punish HIM, that's their perogative and I have no thought on it either way. For me, it's about social conscious, nothing more, nothing less.

Almost forgot to add this about the original song from which the tune to our national anthem was derived & wonder who else knew the fact? Bit of perspective, IMO...

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-star-spangled-banner-200-anniversary-20140912-story.html

Yes, it's a poem about the war of 1812 set to a popular 18th century drinking song, "Anacreon in Heaven." (Didn't read the link; I presume that's explained there.)

I know there have always been a lot of people who would much prefer to have America the Beautiful for our anthem instead.

However, many countries have anthems with iffish beginnings, like the Marseillaise. I'm not sure that's really relevant here.

Lukki, I hear what you are saying and I think it's an important debate to have.

" I get that we have the right, but my opinion is based on social conscious."

I think all of us form our opinions based on our social conscience, but what our consciences tell us about right and wrong are as varied as we are as people. My social conscience doesn't feel one whit of guilt about not saying the pledge of allegiance or not standing for the national anthem. But I am still a believer in the constitution and love much about my country.

What I don't love: racism, sexism, homophobia, misogyny, xenophobia, discrimination and many other things that are present in our county, my conscience tells me to protest. And when I see others protesting those things, I respect their right and bravery in doing so, as long as it isn't violent to others.

I definitely have thoughts about CK's employer punishing him! What if every employer could punish emp!oyees for disagreeing with them politically? Lukki, you said you often learn things from these threads. I'm very glad of that.

Edited to remove a question since answered.

I was researching this as well at the same time. I was surprised to learn that the US has only had an official national anthem since 1931. It's based on a poem written in 1814.

As I stated, writersblock - a bit of perspective on a piece of music some folks seem to have a lot of reverence for.

And the article goes into more detail about that song - not just drinking - sex!

"AND btw, , who's talking about punishment, don't recall ever seeing
anyone even remotely imply anything about law and / or punishment in
anything I've read here or written."

Lukki, I think people are referring to laws that are popping up making it a crime to not behave in a certain manner when the national anthem or pledge are presented, as well as forcing children to participate in something (the OP) they have a conscience against. I believe certain religions have always been exempt from participating in the pledge.

It's really chilling to think we would legislate and thus punish lawbreakers on this type of activity when it has no bearing on public safety.

Does anyone else find it strange that the whole practice of playing the National Anthem at sporting events got started in the first place? Seems such an odd association.

Lukk, I can honestly say you're the first person I've known to stand for the NA in their own home.

I believe I shared info on the other thread about the US DOD spending large sums of taxpayer money on promoting patriotic displays @ sporting events & that this has only been going on @ NFL games for about 6-7 years....?

Here's the article:

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2016/09/colin_kaepernick_s_protest_is_working.html

excerpt:

"...It wasn’t typical for NFL players to stand for the national anthem until 2009—before then, it was customary for players to stay in the locker room as the anthem played.* A 2015 congressional report revealed that the Department of Defense had paid $5.4 million to NFL teams between 2011 and 2014 to stage on-field patriotic ceremonies; the National Guard shelled out $6.7 million for similar displays between 2013 and 2015...."

We may or may not stand for the national anthem in our home, but if we are doing something we stop what we are doing. Our favorite national anthem singer is the guy who sings for the Chicago Blackhawks, Jim Cornelison. He is a member of the Chicago opera and is outstanding. We hope to catch a game in person this year.

I agree Cindymac. Those who don't want this political statement being made at sporting events don't seem realize that even playing the national anthem at sporting events (except maybe the Olympics) is just big business -corporate America - Pro Sports teams turning THEIR event into a political arena by even playing the NA. I don't see the connection even in high school or college sports. Maybe the school song? To me, it's like having the NA playing at Walmart and expecting people to stop and cover their hearts or whatever.

Carol, that's wrong on so many levels! Had no idea.

Oly, yes, the school song makes sense, but not the National Anthem or any other patriotic song.

Speaking for myself, I love our country. Therefore, I support the right of any person to protest anything. It isn't "America, love it or leave it." It is "America, love it and make it better."

I stand during the national Anthem when in such a situation (which hasn't happened for years since I have ZERO interest in sporting events, and few of my friends do, either). But if I am at something where it is played, I will stand and give respect to what we can be (and often have been) if we try.

But, personally, I don't care if someone else sits, stands or does cartwheels, if that's what moves them. Frankly, I'm not even going to notice.

I'm far FAR more offended knowing that come January, we'll either have a president named Donald, or a president named Hilary. I'm far more offended -- and saddened -- that my fellow countrymen (and women) allowed our great nation to suck itself down into this valley of low-ness. What we do about a song or about a bit of red white and blue fabric we name a flag is incredibly TRIVIAL in comparison to this insult.

Rights and social conscious are two different things but you seem to be ignoring that, whatever, I feel the way I do and that's not going to change.

lukkiirish - what is causing you to feel someone is trying to get you to change your opinion/feelings on the subject? I assure you I am not, but I can only speak for myself. You are entirely welcome to think & feel any way you wish.

I believe that is the gist of most of the comments - that the USA is & should stay a land of diversity & tolerance.

Artemis has a point.

Right on, Artemis. This election has become a laughingstock. An absolute laughingstock. I could talk with my kids about the last few elections. But not this one. I don't even know what to say to them.

ETA an NFL player taking a knee during the National Anthem pales in comparison to how I have to explain our presidential candidates. In my world, Kaepernick is just a distraction.

In my world, Kaepernick is just a distraction. - LisaD82

But maybe he shouldn't be, maybe he should be the beginning of your conversation.

I've always felt the National Anthem brings everyone "together" and connected during a sporting event. That, what we all have in common-is that we are all Americans-in this together-and I feel more love and a "warm-fuzzy feeling" toward all the people around me- in the stadium at that particular time.

eta: Maybe that's not what it is all suppose to be about, but that is what I feel, and I was hoping we all felt that same thing, at those times.

This just in:

http://q13fox.com/2016/09/16/entire-seattle-high-school-team-kneels-during-national-anthem-before-game/

Coach did too.

olliesmom I think the point is they don't feel that warm fuzzy feeling because they feel betrayed by one of the fundamental institutions of the country (police and justice system)...so they would like to get back to the warm fuzzy feeling by demanding change in that institution. It is inconvenient or upsetting for people who don't suffer at the hands of the police to be reminded that not everyone is equal in America...but I think it's good to feel that inconvenience and upset because it reminds us that we still have work to do in getting to a just society.

I don't feel that warm, fuzzy feeling at the playing of the national anthem, and I would not consider myself disenfranchised or marginalized in any way. I simply don't feel it, and I'm perfectly fine with that.

Good for the Seattle Public School system.

I think it's great to have this conversation with kids and encourage them to understand what the symbolism is and decide for themselves if they want to sit down when our flag is sung to.

They also need to know that there have been, and will be more, instances of violence to police that is inspired and fomented by things like wearing cops-as-pigs socks. They need to know that may weigh on their conscience as we've seen unprecedented acts of violence against, and brutal killings of, police officers who are just doing their job of protecting us. They need to know that the act of kneeling is not just something you do to join in, and that there could be someone out there who is inspired to commit murder because they see this kind of thing.

That's just the reality, and everyone on all sides must be prepared to be responsible for their actions.

Carol, it's just that every time this topic or others like it comes up, the only thing people focus on is our rights. Yes, we sure do have our rights, but, I don't feel this is just about our rights, IMO, it's about social conscious and the example he has an opportunity (or responsibility) to set for those watching him. He could do something that pays forward, promotes peace and makes this country feel more embracing towards each other. Instead he's doing something that is promoting discourse. Sure people are talking but are they talking about oppression or are they talking about him having the right to do it?

So yes I admit, I'm getting frustrated. It's an emotional topic for me, and articulating my feelings and perspective about it is proving to be difficult. I apologize if I came off strong, I don't mean to. I think it's because unlike most of the posters, I'm not focusing on his rights or the repercussions from his employer or even the legalities of it.

My question or concern is that while he has the right to do what he's doing, is it necessarily the right thing to do? Because to me, those are two different things. (It's legal to bear arms, but in the opinion off many it too is not the right thing to do). He's is supposedly a role model, someone a lot of kids might look up to, and with that comes responsibility, is this really the right way to make the statement he supposedly wants to convey?

We have a Tigers player in Detroit who is also trying to make a statement; a statement for our Vets who we all know have been neglected for many years and in some ways are also oppressed. In sharp contrast, he's taking a completely different approach. He created a foundation with a large chunk of his money and lots of Vets are benefiting from it. Is he making a political statement? Probably not, but Vet care is another topic that needs a lot more "conversation" and he's making a huge difference. He's also giving back and setting a wonderful example to the kids watching him.

I don't want to sound like I'm discounting their issues because I'm not but there are a lot of people who are oppressed, people of color are not the only ones. It's been an issue historically and world wide since the beginning of time. It's absolutely wrong, BUT it's also wrong to oppress any group of people not just one. And it's something that needs to be worked on world wide, not just in the States.

Lastly, I just can't help but wonder why if this is such a terrible awful oppressing place to be and he "can't respect this country", why does he even want to be here?

This is one of his most recent events. http://www.freep.com/story/sports/mlb/tigers/2016/09/09/justin-verlander-wins-for-warriors/90149018/

And this is a quote from the article that hit home for me:

“Luckily I’ve gotten to a point in my career where I can give back,” Verlander said. “I know I wouldn’t be playing this game in this great, free country if it weren’t for these men and women overseas protecting our rights here at home.’

Lukk, NOW THAT'S A COOL GUY! Thank you for posting-I hadn't heard about him.

Yes, the Tiger's player gets my respect for his pouring positivity into our world.

The Onion once again hits the nail on the head in my opinion:

http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/i-just-wish-nfl-players-could-find-a-way-to-protes-53971

"Before I go any further, I want to make one thing clear: I completely understand that as African Americans, these players are frustrated with what they perceive as targeted police brutality against minorities. I realize that they are directly affected by racially motivated discrimination, unfair treatment, and institutional oppression. Believe me, I get it. But the bottom line is that there are other forms of demonstration that can draw attention to these issues without sparking a substantive and meaningful discourse across the country. Would that really be so hard?

Part of what makes America so great is that our citizens have the freedom of speech. I’m all for these players—or anyone else, for that matter—expressing their opinions, but once they start shifting the nation’s focus to serious and pressing matters facing millions of people, that’s where I draw the line. I’m sorry, but I don’t believe in any so-called “protest” if it involves raising awareness of systemic problems within our society."

No need for any apologies, lukkiirish - you have not offended me in any way whatsoever = )

Love The Onion - thanks for sharing that, robo!

A silent peaceful gesture - why, why, why is that somehow inappropriate? IMO, it is very dignified.

IMO, talking about HOW it should be done is a great way to avoid talking about WHY it was done in the first place. & when any of us (I'm presuming) white women here have walked a mile in a non-white person's shoes in this country, then I think they might have a teensy bit of authority to judge or scold these messengers.

Social conscience also requires that we not ignore inequities in our country. It requires us to live up to our Founders' ideals (which they obviously fell short of) and insist our representatives and leaders do the same. Failure to fix those problems after hundreds of years is what is un-American.

I thought this opinion piece from The NY Times was very good:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/18/magazine/who-gets-to-be-called-a-patriot.html

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/21/terence-crutcher-wasnt-bad-dude-just-black-man-in-america

You’ve probably heard of “the talk” African American parents have with their children. But there is another talk I want to have, one which I shared with friends on social media after I learned of this recent police shooting. It’s the talk about what happens if I am ever in Terence Crutcher’s place.

Yes, I will do my absolute best not to do anything to be considered “resisting arrest” or “not following commands”. I will sit stoically and silently. If they ever get their hands on me, I will sit silently until it’s over – though those who don’t should never be shot. But if they kill me, I hope my friends bear witness that I was not “one bad dude”.

I hope people fight for my character. I want people to remember that I loved to read and I loved to create community and that I didn’t believe in “race”, except for the human one. I loved the south and, despite her history, I tried to retell her story. I was a teacher of Torah. I was a teddy bear of a man and not a beast to shoot.

I hope they remember: I wasn’t “one bad dude”. I was a strong, black man

25 Solutions for Police Brutality

https://www.facebook.com/shaunking/posts/1136506649721585

For example,

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-departments-don-report-killer-cops-cut-article-1.2779929

"If any police department in America is receiving federal funding and refuses to report the most basic information requested about the people who die in custody, the department doesn't deserve a dime of federal money. The reports are only required four times per year. If your police department is either killing so many people that it does not want to report the information or has something else to hide, it should not receive any federal funding at all."

I found myself in a very uncomfortable situation among professional peers recently. A woman was "holding court" and telling about her recent vacation, and mentioned crowds attending the concert of a rap performer in the area where she stayed. She said, "You know, those sorts of things tends to attract a lot of undesirables ..." I was so taken aback that all I could think to do was to instantly excuse myself and walk away.

Undesirables???

Someone is instantly viewed as and understood to be an undesirable based upon the music that they listen to, and presumably the color of their skin and the outer persona that they project?

This is the mindset that has GOT to change! How I wish I'd stood up and said something then and there to let her, and everyone else in the room, know that I felt her comment was out of line. I'm not naïve enough to think that I can change mindsets, but I can, by God, speak out whenever something untoward such as this is said publicly.

I may very well have another opportunity to speak up in the near future, as I'm sure to hear the story again and I'm assuming she'll tell it the same way. I pray I have the courage and the right words at the time, and don't merely walk away from the situation without protestation.

You could simply play dumb and ask her what made them undesirables. That puts the onus on her to explain her bigotry. Maybe she'll feel uncomfortable, maybe not.

Just saw this this today & thought of this thread:

Here’s How Many Black People Have Been Killed By Police Since Colin Kaepernick Began Protesting It’s been just one month