If he is the right fit and understands your needs and wants and comes with good references, I wouldn't expect a prelim layout. It's a real time consuming process and it sounds like you already know he gets you

With that said, get a clear understanding of what his overall fee is and how it is charged ( per hr, per job, etc) whether or not you purchase cabinets from him.

But can I know he is the right fit if I don't see a concept of what he comes up with?

From my experience, a lot of it is good communication and understanding your needs and wants and making it happen. If you are on Houzz, you are already going to be much more involved in the process than the average consumer. If he responds well to your changes, gives good suggestions and works well with you, what he comes up with isn't as important because it will be what you collectively come up with that becomes the design. Hope this make sense.

Ive been through at least 4 different renderings and we are still not done. My kitchen designer comes up with suggestions, listens to our wants and makes it happen. The layout we decided on ultimately was mostly suggestions on Houzz, our wants and needs and the designer's professional expertise.

In other words, it isn't his design, it'll be your collectively design. Did he give good suggestions during your initial meeting?

Anne, no. I'm going with a design build kitchen and bath place. It's one stop shop. They also make cabinets in house. The design fee is pretty much fixed into the general project cost. So far I haven't paid anything. But I'm more than willing to.

The designer and I just click. When she came to my home for initial consult, she asked me questions but also listened to me. She covered so many things that other contractors didn't. The others, not all certified KD's, just took measurements and basically left it to me to figure it out.

Maybe you can express your concerns to him and see what he suggests.

What sorts of questions did he ask? What did his portfolio look like?

Most independent KD's won't do work without a deposit. Most good KD's won't do work without a deposit. The big box stores will plop some things in a computer but won't really examine your home, lifestyle and individual needs.

They won't do work without pay and it's unfair to expect them to.

What you need to clarify is what that $1200 provides in terms of changes in the design and how many times and man hours are involved so that there are no misunderstandings.

This is very necessary as you are detailed oriented.

My quote for a separate plan with measurements from a KD at a kitchen build place was $6000.

None of the KDs I interviewed gave out any designs or even made sketches.

I ended up creating my own design. The functionality and basic design remained the same. What changed several times were the styles to accommodate budget.

You might want to create your own first. Run it thru the amazing crowd critiques here then go to the KD.

I went with a well referenced design build initially that I thought got me and would respect my budget, ultimately paid 3k and didn't get very much aside from a few basics before I parted ways with them. It's a risk. There's no guarantee.

On the designers side, there's a risk they will put in a bunch of work for you... give you a great plan, and then you say thanks but no thanks and they are out all the time they spent on your project. And maybe you use the free plan anyway.

In retrospect, I would have spent more time thinking about what I specifically wanted (instead of just general concept and goals) and drawn up my own plans BEFORE paying anyone. I ended up doing that anyway (with a lot of guidance here) just should have done it first and used the designers as consultants rather than trusting them to achieve what I really wanted independently. What I'm going to eventually end up with is way better and I now consider the money I "wasted" initially as part of the learning process.

I'm sure it varies regionally but somewhere around 1k for initial plans seems about right,

"Am I being unrealistic to expect to see a version of his vision before committing the money to the project?"

Yes. You sound very particular. You are lucky you've found someone compatible and you've checked them out.

If I had a customer who'd checked me out and was still worried about spending .03% of her budget to get things moving, I'd run for the hills.

What we did was take some photos of our current house, some photos from Houzz of what we were looking for, and measured the space ourselves. We gave this to several designers to give us an initial proposal. Everyone we met with was willing to do this. We had one meeting and went over our objectives, desired features, and identified a cabinet style. Each then developed a conceptual design to help us understood order of magnitude pricing. We had one more meeting with them to go over their initial design. We expected the cost would go up so we held back 20% of our budget at this phase. What we got out of this phase was a feel for which designers would listen to us and offer creative ideas while understanding at the end of the day it is our kitchen. This process gave us enough information to choose a designer that we had good rapport with and we knew that she had cabinet lines in multiple price points that would meet our design goals.

The designer we chose came out to the house after we paid a $1800 design fee that would be applied to an order. One thing we liked about her was that she explained to us why design decisions would or would not work well. In our city in 2016 most design build firms will not come out to measure until after you've provided a retainer. They are booked up months in advance. Also no designer can get you an $80K kitchen for $40K. If the $40K budget includes appliances and flooring I'd estimate those separately and only give the kitchen designer the budget for cabinets, counters, backsplash, and labor. If you are working to a tight budget I'd lock down appliance choices very early.

have you considered an independent certified kitchen designer? They charge mostly by the hour, though some do flat fee. They aren't tied to any cabinet line but some do offer the option to purchase. You pay for the drawings then you can shop them around to various contractors.

Have you posted your layout here? If not, start with that. Lots of talent here and you'll get free advice. Once you find something that is close, you can then talk to the designers to finalize for cabinet ordering.

Also, go back and think about the questions he asked you. That may give you insight on where he is going with the design. I just noticed you live in the same town as my sister :)

We have yet to find the person who really connects with us and seems to understand our vision for the space. I have met with designers from big box stores, local independent companies, online designers and those that tout themselves as "high-end" designers. We also have given a design to local cabinetmakers for estimates.

How many people have you talked to already? And how did you give a design to the cabinetmakers if you haven't settled on a designer?

You're getting good advice here. Designers don't work for free. It sounds like you have talked to an awful lot of designers, and you're starting off with an adversarial attitude. At some point, you need to extend some trust to a professional. Most designers do what they do because they like it and they're good at it. Some are better than others, and everyone has different experiences. It can be a difficult process, but you're pretty much guaranteeing yourself a bad experience by expecting the worst of people. Be clear about what you want and be willing to pay for it.

All I can say is that once we gave our designer the design fee she came back to us with four different approaches. Some elements of all the approaches were similar because of the limitations of the space (U shaped kitchen) but she tried her best to give us new ideas. We got different ideas for the island (including one with a peninsula instead of an island). Some of the differences were minor (such as different ways to arrange the upper cabinets using doors and lift ups). Some of her ideas were things we didn't ask for initially (such as table height seating built into the island). We rejected that idea but considering it was part of the brainstorming process that helped us have confidence we were getting the best design. We ended up picking elements from all of the approaches into a final design. I think that's the way the design process should work. As we finalized the design she always gave us what we wanted, but often offered suggestions on how the design could be better. We took most but not all of those suggestions. She understood that this was our kitchen not hers. She was flexible but let us know if something we thought of wouldn't work well or would look odd.

Ask the designer you like how his design process works.

I used an an excellent CKBD and I paid an up front fee of $2500 for her time spent doing the design and detailed drawings. After all the people you've talked to that you don't like, if you finally found someone you do like I'd think you'd want to pay the $ and get on with it.

And smm5525 makes an excellent point about working with someone unaffiliated with a cabinet shop. That might get you over the hurdle of trusting a designer.

Another option is a design build firm. The design aspect is built into the overall cost. Some will do one layout for free then ask for a deposit to release the drawings to you and do additional layouts until you agree on a final plan. They will ask for your budget up front.

Luckily, the design build we are going with specializes in kitchens and baths and makes custom cabinets but also carries cabinet lines in a few price points. Sometimes the custom cabinets made locally are cheaper than ordering from a company and having to customize certain things to your liking (semi custom).

We interviewed four KDs before making a decision. Three came out and measured for free and showed us a proposed design. The fourth told us to bring him approximate measurements. He came up with a rough design, but told us that he would need a $2000 deposit (applied to the cost if the kitchen if we went with him) to come out and measure and work up a more detailed design. The three that did the "free" designs did not listen to my ideas, and I was not impressed with theirs. Even before the fourth one showed us the rough sketch, I had a feeling we would use him because he listened carefully and made insightful comments. I had no issues giving him the $2000 because he was so clearly the best I had come across. I believed that this was a guy who could take my vision and turn it into a practical kitchen. I was happy I went with my instincts.

I drew up my own kitchen design and took it to two places (one a local cabinet maker and the other sells Canyon Creek). They both transferred it to their computer system and gave me a price (and their computer generated layouts). They didn't change my design at all.

My friend had a great experience with a Brookhaven dealer. I went to his shop with my original layout (so all my estimates were apples to apples) and he said a high level estimate would be $15K but would most likely be less because he was estimating high, but to do his design would be $1K and he would come out to measure ($1K applied to cabinets). I decided to let him do it because I really liked the quality of finish on Brookhaven. I met with him yesterday and the only difference in his design was he shrunk my island by 6" and the cost is going to be $500 more than his initial guess (also labor to install is now $300 more than what he said).

I had also taken my husband in a week earlier to see the wood veneer edge banding which I though was standard (that was the only one he showed us when we were there and did not mention it was an upgrade). Apparently if we want that edge banding it would be about another $1,500K upgrade. Needless to say I feel stupid having to pay someone to get a price for a design that I did just to price out their cabinets.

With all that said I may go with them anyway because of the cabinet quality/finish.

I agree with beachem. I would make sure you both have an understanding as to how many times the design can change, how many times you will meet, the budget and a time line.

From a DH DIY's point of view, "Really, I would never have designed this with you for 1,200" He does much bigger projects at work. Apparently I have had more iterations than he is used to ;^)

I must say on my own behalf- the house is 160+ years old....the house had some hidden/unknown agendas!

If it feels right, go for it. But..... do ask about how many iterations you get!

Heather

I guess my real question is why have the other designers/companies I checked in with either provided a preliminary design without asking for any money and this person will not? I think that is why I posed this question. Of course, big box stores will do it but so did a few small businesses in the area (one was out of our price range, another carried a cabinet line that didn't sell a cabinet finish that would work with the granite and flooring we decided we wanted to use and the third person [who I really liked alot but then never could get to return a call or email without several attempts by me]) did? If I am going to commit to spending alot of money to work with an individual, I think he should sell me on his work by at least discussing/showing me concepts within my price range. I wouldn't but a new car if the dealer wouldn't let me test drive it first or purchase a house based upon the realtor's word that it would be a good fit.

Did the freebies offer any designs/layouts you liked?

Yes, it's a risk for sure but also a risk for him to give out free advice and layouts. He could give you wonderful ideas then you turn around and go to a big box for the work and order.

Sometimes you get what you pay for.

scottie mom: How many people have you talked to already? And how did you give a design to the cabinetmakers if you haven't settled on a designer?

We have talked to two big box stores and a few local places. That is how we gave a design to a cabinet maker to get a price. Iand that is my point. Those places have provided a preliminary design but for various reasons stated in a previous post, we didn't hire.

It sounds like you have talked to an awful lot of designers, and you're starting off with an adversarial attitude.

We have met with several designers/companies. I am not sure why you think I went into the meetings with an adversarial attitude (that would be an absolute waste of time). I have a hard time simply "extend[ing] some trust to a professional" who has given me no proof they deserve it. I don't doubt that there are many, many talented designers out there, but just because they are talented does not mean they are the right for for us. I certainly am not "expecting the worst of people" but am not willing to settle for someone simply because they say I should. If someone clearly shows me that "get" what we want and will be able to deliver within our budget, I am more than happy to pay for that service.

The difference in looking at tangible products are that they are already made. You wouldn't ask someone to build you something to your specification for you to test drive and then decide you're going with something else.

Some will do it for free (like big box stores) because they are employees getting paid hourly wage and perhaps commission. This guy makes nothing if you walk away after he spends hours figuring out a solution for you.

Seriously, post here first. Narrow down your options then shop the layout around to different cabinet lines and custom makers. You don't pay a dime for the advice here.

I think we are all going by what you said. Something made you choose him from the others. If you aren't sure, then just find someone else who will give you an initial design for free. You can't make him give you a free design and sometimes the people that do aren't a good fit.

My designer didn't get back to me after our first meeting either. I made an appointment a year later because that is how much I liked her. Good ones are busy and hard to find if you live in smaller areas.

smm5525, they did give me some ideas that are decent but also some things that our budget won't allow. (For instance, I told a designer that, if the budget allowed, we would love to knock down a wall between the kitchen and dining room to create a more open concept, retaining the eating area. Having a formal dining room is of no use to us. That designer did show us a plan that eliminated the wall, but also expanded the kitchen into the entire dining room, didn't take into account the locations of the windows on the front of the house which could not be moved, removed a doorway which we said we wanted to keep, and moved all plumbing and electrical components. He did not give us a price but I can guarantee you it would not have been close to staying within our budget. the cost of the structural changes would have probably eaten up half of our budget before cabinets, countertops, flooring, etc. I was demoralized.)

No, a 3% deposit is not an unreasonable request of the KD. But if it makes you uncomfortable then find someone who works differently. That said, you will be faced with laying out deposits throughout this process, so it is something you need to get your head around.

Unnie: it's very difficult to price things like that (structural changes) without getting into much more time consuming planning. A contractor (probably not designer) can give you a range, but lots of times don't know until they are in there doing demo.

When I inquired of designers regarding things like structural changes they said they can provide the layout option for those changes but it'll be up to the contractor to figure out how much money it would take. Anything can be done, moved, etc but you'll have to check with a contractor to figure out cost estimates.

Forgot to mention: a design build firm did give me rough cost estimates for my project taking into account moving a wall and adding 2 Windows. But I gave them the layout I was considering after posting for layout advice here.

The last time we tried to get our renovation project going we talked to a couple of kitchen designers. Some would only speak in generalities. One of the higher end designers wanted to come out and measure before talking about budgets/estimates (and was not going to charge for that). The one we ended up spending a little more time with drew up nice proposals based on our architect's plan. She gave us pictures but not the measurements (I didn't want them anyway). But I had a very decent sense of what our kitchen would have looked like. I was impressed by what she did. I will probably go back there with our revised plan when we are ready (hopefully soon). Nobody asked for money and I realized that I would not have been ready at that time to pay someone for a design.

I find the whole area of kitchen designers to be frustrating. I would love to work with a great, knowledgable kitchen designer and I agree that it could make a world of difference in how functional your space turns out. But you almost have to be an expert yourself in designing kitchens to be able to evaluate a KD's knowledge and competence (thank goodness for GW). The vast majority of kitchens I see, even in newly remodeled homes, are quite terribly laid out or just average. So it's not like I can just get a recommendation from my friend or neighbor. Some people are very happy with a mediocre product.

My recommendation is not to rely too much on a kitchen designer until you already have a pretty good idea about what a good kitchen looks like and what you want out of your kitchen. That is my expectation anyway. Then I hope that I will work with a good designer who can add value to my idea or challenge me to think differently about my space. But I hope that regardless of their skill level I will at least know enough to avoid having a terrible kitchen.

magpier nailed it! I really do think one has to know a lot in order to ascertain the best designers who understand you and your kitchen lifestyle. I've seen very poorly designed $100k+ kitchens done by professionals, and very well designed kitchens done by complete amateurs. Like most things in life, it's pretty much down to very good communication from and between all parties involved.

smm5525 has very sound thinking, too. I have a question for you, smm5525 - what sort of questions did your better kitchen designers come up with that neither you nor the lesser designers had considered? I'm thinking those questions might be very useful for others interested in getting the best out of their design/ers.

Summery: my search for contractors started way before I discovered GW and Houzz. My biggest problem with current kitchen was cabinet function. I wanted to maximize storage. Most contractos came and took measurements. Didn't discuss overall goals. I assumed I was married to my layout because the floor was new.

The lady I chose asked me about lighting, whether I liked my corner pantry ( I told her I loved it: that was before I discovered GW), whether I wanted drawers. I thought she was nuts for suggesting drawers to store pots and pans! Ha! How little did I know then. I told her I wanted some design style so it wasn't all so boxy and boring. She suggested things like bumping out cabinets, taking some or all to the ceiling, etc. She asked whether I wanted to keep my desk area, whether I use it and how I use it. At the time, it seemed like all these questions were asked in passing ( corner pantry, desk area, drawers for storage etc.)

My estimate from her fell through the cracks and I continued on my search for the perfect contractor. Long story short, I went back to her a year later...after discovering GW with all my new ideas. She remembered me!

I told her I reconsidered corner pantry ( she breathed a sigh of relief), I wanted all drawers (another sigh of relief) and wanted to add windows. From that point forward, we were completely on the same page. She makes suggestions, understands my suggestions, we are a team. She listens to my ideas, finds a way to make them happen, tells me if something just isn't right and won't work. I can't explain it, I just knew she was the right fit for me. And it wasn't until we are deep into the project that I can see just how much she knows, and how good she is. Sometimes, it's just a gut feeling and you gotta jump in.

If I were presented with your project, and budget, and you started talking about knocking walls down etc, we'd have to have to tell you right up front that it was not anywhere close to being realistic for your want list. No way.

You are being vetted as to your seriousness to move forward. You're not passing their interview. It is a two way street after all.

Hen Id ask you would you be interested in how much of your wish list was a need, and let's figure out how much of that can be done for your 40K.

Demolition of the old cabinets, counters, flooring, and moving out the appliances to the safe zone Plus a dumpster. 3K Add Another 3K if tile removal is involved.

New basic 12x12 tile flooring with polyurethane grout. 5K

Lower end cabinets No stacked to the ceiling or all drawers, etc. Sure. 12K with install.

New sink, faucet, and DW connects from a real plumber with new shut offs and pipes 1K

Under cabinet lighting and new cans, maybe some pendants 3K

Basic medium level granite counters 4K

Paint walls, trim, and replace the quarter round molding 2K

Misc like knobs and pulls and slight overages in other categories 2K

Having a GC or project manager coordinate and supervise all of the above 8K

There. You are at your budget. And ou just did a lower than average expenditure kitchen using some nicely upgraded materials And came in on budget, and under 4 months of time from ordering to finishing.

What you didn't get was anything changed from your current layout, or anything else major, like walls coming down.

Next....

Can I ask what you would like the KD's role to be? Because KD's are not contractors.

I'm grateful for this thread because it makes me glad I'm not a kitchen designer or a countertop fabricator.

I'm getting spoiled rotten lately. I won't do new work, only redoing work that someone else has screwed up. Fortunately, this is not in short supply. I never bid any more either, I just bill. And they gush their gratefullness as they write their checks; I'm starting to expect that as much as payment. I'll be 61 in a few months, so I'll be bringing this party to a close soon. Or maybe I'll just raise my rates.

I can't imagine how much time bidding jobs and doing free layouts eats up.

Joe, in my experience, contractors are something ppl are willing to pay for. For some reason, intangibles like design work and decorating people want to see ideas up front. Which sometimes, unfortunately, people use on their own without ultimately retaining.

For Unnie: I really think you need to reevaluate your expectations. You will get the best kitchen within your space and budget constraints, but it won't come from the initial free layout. The other designers you say didn't give you what you wanted but you also didn't give them a chance to go through the process. Kitchen design doesn't happen in an hour and on the first draft. I promise with some patience, trust and lots of communication and research on your part as well as theirs, it'll come together. You may not get everything u want, but most good designers will try to get most of your wish list items within budget.

You've been watching too much HGTV. Your expectations aren't realistic. No one does free work. If you do, then let us know where you work and you'll do a lot more of that.

You doing some of the work, or hiring some of the trades, leaves you as the responsible party for coordinating everything. YOU are acting as the GC on the job. You may not realize that it will be up to you to catch all of the ''gotcha'', but that's what role you've taken on by trying to piece the job out.

Demo is the worst thing to even think about DIYing unless you are extremely experienced. It ain't sledgehammer fun like TV shows. I guarantee you will end up with leaking shut off valves, because no one ever maintains them. If you don't know how to deal with a mini flood in the kitchen, you are beyond over your head in this project.

You need to stop. You're wasting a bunch of people's time. Start wasting your own time.

If you're gonna be the GC on the job and can't do a measured layout to twiddle around with, then you aren't ready to do a kitchen project. If you don't understand the (massive) electrical requirements that a new kitchen has, then you are not ready to move forward. If you do not understand how and when to design a properly supported overhang in stone, you are not ready to move forward. If you do not understand the proper support and substrate, and layout pattern of tile, and how to not tile in your appliances, then you are not ready to move forward. If you don't understand the chicken and egg conundrum of timing for a construction project, then you are not ready to move forward.

Or, double your budget and hire a KD who works directly with a contractor. Or a design build firm. But, if you can't even develop enough trust with a good KD, then you need to go back to the drawing board for the entire project. It's doomed. You either have to man up and do ALL OF THE WORK, including design, or let go and trust.

"I can't imagine how much time bidding jobs and doing free layouts eats up."

smm5525:

I don't let it. If you become a customer of mine, I bill for all administrative time, including the time on the phone starting with our first "Hello".

I do nothing for free. I'm running a business, not a charity, but I will make trades. You tell me what's on your mind and I'll tell you about my reputation. If we both like what we hear, we've got a deal. If not, no hard feelings and no charge.

It was easier to get good talent to work at low prices in 2010 during the great recession. We got some pretty good deals back then. At least in my area the the good talent is booked up months in advance and is charging a lot to build up reserves to carry through the next bust. If someone is readily available or willing to do work for free the first question is: what's wrong?

Sophie Wheeler, if you don't want to read the thread and respond, then don't. I am appreciative of the feedback that others are giving on this post and will continue to consider their suggestions. If you are bored with it, then skip it.

Just giving you a dose of unvarnished reality, which you seem to badly need if you want to end up with an "after" pic. You gotta up your game, or up your budget. TANSTAAFL.

Unnie - help me understand what you are hoping to get out of the preliminary design. In our case, we had the architect draw up layout for a few hundred $, so that we had something consistent we could go to various cabinetmakers for pricing (and I could use to put together an Ikea plan so I knew what rock bottom was). That way we could narrow down to what brands/cabinetmakers were in our price range. From there we chose the place (in our case a small custom guy) we felt comfortable with, and gave him a small deposit to reserve time on his schedule.