Haha, thank you for the laugh Virgil! :)

They do know that tile will be in the bathroom. I assume the architect and builder ordered the correct joist in the beginning as that is a bathroom there and they new it wouldn't have linoleum.

Better have the LD recalculated when there is a giant hole in the support. Never assume that it was spec'd or ordered correctly. That would be well over the required code minimum. Builders are not inclined to spend one nickel going one iota over code minimum unless they charge the customer double to do so.

The Joist company did send me over the new loads after the joist is repaired, but it looks greek to me. Anything I should be looking for?

You know Virgil, I do find your condescending humor slightly offensive and annoying but besides stupid dismissals, do you actually have an argument why "shoving" some wood into the gap is such a bad idea?

If all you got is stupid jokes then I assume you have no clue how a joist works.

BTW, Gorilla glue will do the job of holding the piece in place. It'll never be under tension so even Elmers glue will work.

First, what was the original spec for the joist, pre cutting? Load deflection (flexibility and bounciness) is specified as a LD number. The higher the number, the stiffer the floor. It all involves the span, the height of the joist, and the spacing interval. With a heavy tub of water there, you are going to have more issues than if this was a mere powder room. So even if the joist were designed to have a high LD rating, I'd want sistering to happen.

Second, what was the LD number given for the assembly post butchering?

Third, I'm assuming that the GC is requiring the plumber to pay the cost of the fix as an educational tool?

I like that show. The guy uses a huge chunk of his own money.

Yep, time for an episode of "Holmes Makes It Right"...how much do you think he'd rip out before reconstruction...?

The plumber is paying for all of the costs to fix it. Even the inspector made a comment right in front of the plumber that "the idiot that did this should be paying for it." Cost is honestly my least concern.

Then get a new joist. They damaged it, they should replace it.

These are the three load sheets that were sent with the materials:

Tribbletrouble44152k7 Trek - I would but have been told by every single person (structural engineer, joist company, carpenters, inspectors, etc) that a new joist would be more trouble than it is worth at this stage of construction.

If this helps, where the red dot is is where the joist was notched. Again 4"x4" notch on a 16" tall joist approximately 18" from exterior wall.

It is LD 360, which is sufficient for small to medium porcelain (12"), but not large format (defined as any tile with an edge over 16") or any natural stone other than maybe a small mosaic. None of the long plank tile, and no marble etc. You will have cracked tile if you go outside those guidelines.

Where it is cut is the worst spot that it could be. I'd definitely want it sistered, and cross reinforcement as well. Heck, I'd use the metal reinforcement too. Belt and suspenders when it comes o structural risks.

LISTEN TO SOPHIE.

Thank you, thank you, thank you Sophie! I am just about ready to order a whole new joist. I am also looking into the metal reinforcers to see if they can send something to the inspector about it. They claim that the joist will be "stronger than before." If that is the case, that seems like a good solution. How would we do cross reinforcement and sistering if we did the metal reinforcement? Not sure how that would be accomplished. I'd definitely rather have overkill and piece of mind...

They can drill into metal. Very relieved to hear about the new joist. I had visions of you landing in the living room in a bath full of water!

Why would you do "cross reinforcement and sistering" if you did the metal reinforcement? Just install the plates on each side and be done with it.

If you replace the joist you still need to cut a hole in it for the pipe probably farther from the support as required by the manufacturer.

As JDS point out, the drain line from the tub will still have to be accomodated, even it the line is rerouted to some degree. This is probably why a "framed opening" solution was recommended--as a means of framing an opening around the existing drain line. Clearly, there are various solutions available. Pick one, get it done and move on! Good luck with your project.

The damage is so close to the support that a header solution will probably work without doubling the adjacent joists but pay attention to the LL deflection. That solution seems like more work than steel reinforcement but that's not your concern.

Okay, so I got back with the joist company and am waiting on an alternate solution. They say that the original joist had a movement of a 10th of an inch and with the repair it has a movement of a 6th of an inch. Not sure what that really means. They say that the more structure they add to it, the greater risk of squeaking. Also, we may have an issue with the steel reinforcer as they need a minimum of 10" on either side of the notch and we have a pipe very close to the 10" mark that comes through the webbing. I am going to go measure it again today to verify though.

What kind of load rating would we be looking for to prevent tile cracking?

Have you bought your tiles already? Could you buy small ones?

I doubt deflection would be an issue for tile for a bathroom so close to the support wall unless the tub is unusually large and not anticipated in the original structural design. A floor plan would be helpful. Its difficult to design blind.

do you actually have an argument why "shoving" some wood into the gap is such a bad idea?... I assume you have no clue how a joist works.

...Gorilla glue will do the job of holding the piece in place. It'll never be under tension so even Elmers glue will work.

DIYers use this economical method all the time.

Yep, that's what is needed on a new custom home design and construction: a DIY method! Amazing!

Hi Everyone! Thank you so much for all of the help and feedback. We actually decided to just do the steel reinforcement. With this, they actually have a structural engineer from our area sign off that the joist is as strong or stronger than it was initially. This seemed like a win-win for us - plumbing could stay, no cutting of the joist or doing any more permanent damage, and having a strong joist. JDS - I think you were the first to suggest it, so an extra thank you to you!

Congratulations! Great to see a final solution. :-)

Hahaha, I know! I apologize for how dramatic this has been! ;)

Ah, but not x rated as if you had landed in your living room in your bathtub.

Didn't that happen to Margaret Truman before they restored the White House? It may just have been the feet of the tub that came through.

There are different versions. Google

margaret Truman falling through the floor in the bath

good choice.

air seal that plumbing drain monster hole

before moving on. big air leakage site into the house.

best of luck.

good sharing of info here folks!

The Tiffany east room in the white house 1884

Wow. Just wow. Regardless of what he does, he should know how to work around all parts of a home. I would be furious. Although my plumber would never in a million years do this in the first place haha!

We had to build the shower wall out because our drain would have landed right on the top of an I-joist. We considered building a platform (step up into shower), adding to the wall or switching around the shower. (Doors and base are universal, can go left or right) Switching the shower around didn't make sense because of the plumbing, where towel bars needed to go etc. and I had already purchased the doors and base (at Costco for an amazing price!) so I wasn't giving it up for an offset drain.

If you didn't know that's why we did it, you would never notice the difference. I barely even notice it anymore.

"What kind of load rating would we be looking for to prevent tile cracking?"

Let's first set you straight on what was previously stated. Forget about the top part of the load sheet. That is just stating code minimums.

LL = Live Load (people, furniture, things not built into the floor)

DL = Dead Load (joists, subfloor, tile, drywall on underside ceiling)

TL = Total Load (LL + DL)

Deflection is actually measured by L/360 or L/240 or L/720 etc. The "L" is the length of the joist span. Therefore, the smaller the deflection number the better, or in Sophie's world, the larger number that "L" is divided by, the better ;)

The area where the joist was cut is going to have less deflection than is allowed by code even if they were only shooting for L/360 because they are not the longest joists in the plan. In this case, the joist for this load sheet, which I believe is the long side of the one that was cut has a deflection of L/868. The deflection is also written as 0.22" at the center of the span. Longer joists will have more deflection.

It is recommended that ceramic tiles have no more TOTAL deflection than L/360 (that is next to the TL, not LL), and that large tiles and stone have less than L/720 total deflection. There is more to this than just the deflection of the joists. The subfloor also has to conform to these limits or better. That is determined by the spacing between joists and the thickness of the subfloor.

Here is a little something that might help explain further.

https://www.sbcindustry.com/system/files/sbca/educationalprogram/node/ppt/1205/educationpptspecialfloorloading.pptx

Fred S Thank you! That is very helpful! We decided to order the steel reinforcer from Metwood (haven't installed it yet). The company has said that, once applied, the joist will be as strong or stronger than it was originally. They provide a certification letter with a seal of a structural engineer in my area stating that when applied correctly, they assure the following load capacities: live load of 40 psf and dead load of 15 psf. Also, with further questioning, the joist manufacturer told me that prior to the notch in the i-joist, the deflection was 1/10th of an inch and after the repair plan they suggested, it would have been 1/6th of an inch deflection. I really hope we chose the right solution....

Maximum allowable deflection for stone tile under live load is not to exceed L/720. Refer to substrate requirements in ANSI A108, A118, & A136 Version 2011.1 and the 2011 TCNA Handbook for Ceramic, Glass, and Stone Tile Installation.

It is the deflection of the total load, not just live load.

I'm not sure what you guys want the homeowner to do? Put in a joist as well?

I'm just trying to make sure the homeowner is looking at the correct/actual specs when deciding what type of tile or stone is appropriate ;)

I'm lost... :(

And will this just affect the tile in this bathroom or throughout the entire home? :(

Fred, interpret for the Op?

You and Sophie have the same measurements ;);)

So what does : when tested per ASTM A108 mean? You have a kitchen floor tiled, Does engineer use a worst case calculation to satisfy the TESTED statement? You have a party and you have 20 + people milling around in kitchen, maybe some are pretty BIG people, all smiling around a birthday girl. Will the floor hold / not crack tiles with say 5000+ Lb of pressure in a small square area? How do engineers take this into account?

So, what I don't understand is if my deflection is L/868, why is that not sufficient for tile? That is great than L/720, so what is wrong with that? We have materials for both fixes (steel joist reinforcer from met wood and heading it off as recommended by the joist company). How am I supposed to decide? It seems like everyone has a different opinion on site and both fixes have been approved by the building department inspector. I am told the steel reinforcer could cause squeaking (since I am told that happens when you put metal to wood) and am also told that the way the joist company recommended the repair isn't sufficient. I am so overwhelmed.

We are exactly sure the tile we will be using, but the plan is to use a 3"x6" subway porcelain tile on the shower walls and are leaning toward this for the floors: http://products.daltile.com/series.cfm?series=85. I don't love the idea of being limited in floor tile size for remodels and such though. And, with the the floor tile we picked, do we have to worry about grout cracking?

"So, what I don't understand is if my deflection is L/868, why is that not sufficient for tile? That is great than L/720, so what is wrong with that?"

I believe the only person to say it was not sufficient was Sophie because she was looking at the wrong number.

"Sophie Wheeler

last Thursday at 8:41PM

It is LD 360, which is sufficient for small to medium porcelain (12"), but not large format (defined as any tile with an edge over 16") or any natural stone other than maybe a small mosaic. None of the long plank tile, and no marble etc. You will have cracked tile if you go outside those guidelines"

.

"That is great than L/720, so what is wrong with that?"

L/868 is LESS THAN L/720 just as 1/4 is less than 1/2. The floor should have LESS deflection than L/720.

.

"I don't love the idea of being limited in floor tile size for remodels and such though. And, with the the floor tile we picked, do we have to worry about grout cracking?"

It is hard to tell you anything definitive on this side of the internet. Someone that is actually there will have to look at things more closely, but so far, so good. All anyone can do away from the job is look at the calculations.

"So what does : when tested per ASTM A108 mean? You have a kitchen floor tiled, Does engineer use a worst case calculation to satisfy the TESTED statement?"

Yes, basically, the calculations are done before the plans are finalized or the floor built, so it is hard to "test" it at that point. After the floor is built, testing is moot to a point because it only tells you what you can no longer fix very well. The only thing that testing after the subfloor is done really does is warns you not to use the big tile you may have wanted.

"You have a party and you have 20 + people milling around in kitchen, maybe some are pretty BIG people, ..." The calculations don't quite go to that "worse case". The "live load" is listed as 40 pounds per square foot, so 200÷40 means that a population density of more than one person per 5 square feet would go over the limit. That is an area 27"×27", so if everyone tried to see how tightly they could pack together and jumped up and down in the middle of the floor, it would probably crack the grout. That is one reason to add strong backs, cross-bridging in the middle of the joist spans. But it is often better to increase the size of the joist and space them closer together. (Less time, and less potential squeeks)

.

"I don't love the idea of being limited in floor tile size for remodels and such though. And, with the the floor tile we picked, do we have to worry about grout cracking?"

Everything may be fine. Assuming the floor joist are all the same height and type, you need to get the numbers on the "actual deflection" of the total load, taking into account the weight of the tile and underlayment/tile bed you will be using for the LONGEST joist span that will be under a tiled area. Some stone applications can increase the dead load to above the 15 pounds allotted in these load sheets. Therefore, the total load would be more than the 55 pounds. There are an infinite number of possibilities, and you can't allow for all of them without spending twice as much money.

Has anyone used the steel reinforcers? I have an engineer that sealed it vs a joist company that recommends the repair but won't give a seal or letter behind it. It seems like the steel reinforcer is less "destructive" than the joist company's recommendation. I guess I really have no idea what to chose. This is the most difficult part of home building...when there are two options and different professionals are recommending different things...

I would rely on the original structural designer, in fact, I would be required to in my state. I would never design a house without an engineer of record even if it wasn't required by law.

Remember that the maximum bending moment and deflection occurs at the mid span of the joist and both are zero at the support. The maximum shear occurs at the support. Since the brace is designed for the worst case of all forces I suspect it will exceed the needed strength by a wide margin.

Also, the recommended deflection ratios are for maximum allowable loading at the mid span so the deflection near the support might be more than L/3000 and a tub, even if a spa, will never reach the maximum allowable loading per s.f. so tile of any kind should not be a concern.