The only thing I can find is this:

https://ttlc.intuit.com/questions/2665425-our-house-was-started-in-2014-and-will-be-finished-this-year-when-can-we-take-the-tax-credits

I'm hoping that if they decide to end it this year rather than extend it, they will allow some amount of flexibility for people who are just about finished.

I had to contend with the NY State tax office regarding a GSHP rebate my contractor steered me towards. My recommendation would be to speak with a tax professional or accountant.

Here are the instructions for Form 5695. It says what you stated in your post about when the use begins. The new law on energy tax credits has already been passed. It is unlikely the geothermal tax credit will be extended, but it is always possible an extension can be tacked on to another bill in Congress. Not sure what you mean about flexibility. I never heard of the IRS being flexible about anything.

Be aware that only the geothermal equipment and installation costs qualify for the tax credit. The duct work, dehumidifers, humidifiers, ERV, etc. are not considered part of the geothermal system. The IRS issued a ruling on that topic a few years ago.

Have you spoken directly to the geothermal installation company? Do you think they will be able to stay in business after the tax credit ends? I would be concerned about a company who relies heavily on residential geothermal systems. It is something to think about.

+1 for mike_home

Verify that your geothermal
installer is an authorized installer for the brand geothermal heat pump being
installed. That way even if the installer goes out of business you will still receive
support.

SR

Thanks for the responses.

I haven't spoken with the HVAC sub, but they've been in business for 25 years, and on their website state they're authorized dealers for Trane, Ducane, Lennox, Climatemaster and Goodman. Our system is going to be a Climatemaster.

Our builder has basically confirmed that we need an occupancy permit in 2016, if Congress does not extend the credit.

My gut feeling is that congress will extend the credit, but not until after the election in the lame duck session. So, plan A is to be finished this year, if that doesn't happen hopefully congress extends the credit in a similar way that they extended solar.

Will natural gas be available to your house? What is your location? If gas is not available have you considered an inverter type heat pump like the Carrier Greenspeed?

There is little political incentive to extend the geothermal tax credit. Heating with natural gas, which is a domestic fuel, is cheaper then using geothermal in most parts of the country. Inverter type air sourced heat pumps are nearly as efficient as ground sourced where natural gas is not available.

No natural gas unfortunately. We have that in our current home, but our new home isn't in a development.

I'm really liking the idea of no condensing unit outside, making noise, needing service.

As for political incentive, I would think the Democrats are pretty insistent on getting this renewed. They'll likely implement the same decreasing scale they implemented for solar, and treat it like it was inadvertently left off the language, which is what the Democrats insist is the case in the first place. Hope it gets done.

To the OP, how many square feet will this house be? What’s
your electrical rate per kWh? Are you planning for any in-floor radiant?

My first choice for a geothermal HP would be the
Waterfurnace Series 7, COP 5.3, 41 EER. Nothing comes even close – not even
Greenspeed!

IMPO

SR

Waterfurnace Series 7

fsq4cw,

Can you explain the COP values for the Waterfurnace Series 7. What do the COP values for full load at 32 degrees and part load at 41 degrees mean? How does one compare the Waterfurnace COP values to an air sourced heat pump which makes no mention of loads and are quoted at different air temperatures (47 and 17 degrees).

Hi Mike I,

If you were looking at page
6 of the Waterfurnace Series 7 Specification Manual, as I suspect you are, the
data presented could be a little clearer but it doesn’t matter. It’s basically
all there.

You’re looking at the far
left column for ‘Ground Loop Heat Pump’, meaning a closed loop, probably vertical
loop. ‘Full Load 32˚F’ means COP at worst operating conditions in heating mode,
HP operating at full capacity with an Entering Water Temperature (EWT) of 32˚F.
This temperature is rather unlikely as even where I am in Canada, the average
ground temperature during the winter is about 42˚F. However, the fluid
temperature in the loop might drop to
32˚F (EWT) if during a prolonged cold
snap with the HP running for days on end, with a Leaving Water Temperature
(LWT) of ~26˚F the ground can’t warm the returning (EWT) beyond 32˚F on its
return to the HP. This scenario would produce a COP of 3.5 or about 350%
efficiency compared to that of a high efficiency gas furnace of 98%. BTW: The
ground loops better have antifreeze protection into the very low 20s˚F as we
are already talking about temperatures well below freezing!

On the other hand, this same
HP under partial load, still under about worst case ground conditions of 41˚F
will produce a COP of about 5.3 or 530% (with inverter controlled variable
speed compressor in this case) compared to a high efficiency gas furnace of about 98%.

To compare apples to apples,
you would have to calculate the Btu of 1-therm, times 98% for a high efficiency
gas furnace, then convert that to kW, or about 28.72kW/Therm @98% efficiency. For
the geothermal heat pump, you multiply 1kW (of input energy) times the COP. This heat pump
running at partial load with a COP of 5.3 would produce 5.3kW output of heat
into the envelope for every 1kW of electricity consumed.

The price per Therm (at 98%
efficiency) is divided by 28.72 (kW of heat per Therm) and the price per kWh is
divided by 5.3 (COP) for geothermal HP to arrive at a final figure of cost per kW of heat
delivered into the envelope, which is still not final because you still have
air-conditioning and DHW to contend with. A geothermal heat pump does both
heating and cooling at about the same efficiency and produces DHW at a much-reduced
cost during heating season and essential free during the summer when
air-conditioning because the heat extracted from the air is put into the DHW instead of being exhausted uselessly into the outdoor air.

IMPO

SR

Hi Mike II,

Note that I am being very
generous with the efficiency of a gas furnace at 98%.

The COP of an air-source
heat pump will vary with the outdoor ambient temperature. Again, when comparing
efficiencies of air-source heat pumps to that of geothermal heat pumps we must
convert to a common measure of efficiency such as, COP or EER at a specific
outdoor or ground temperature taking into account all the energy used to
produce the heat or cooling. COP is easiest because then it is simple to just
multiply 1kW by COP to arrive at the number of kW of heat (or cooling)
delivered into the envelope and to divide the unit cost per kW of electricity
by the COP to determine the cost per kW of heat (or cooling) delivered into the
envelope.

Again note that while
the ambient temperature for an air-source HP varies greatly, the ground
temperature for the geothermal HP remains rather constant. In fact, the minor seasonal
changes in ground temperature lags by about a season so the ground is in fact warmer
when we need it warm and cooler when we need it cooler.

Was that simple?

Make sense to me after
several rereads.

IMPO

SR

I thought COP was mostly a heat pump concept, the ratio of heat produced divided by energy consumed, and that the comparison was to 1.0, the COP of electric resistance heating? Comparing the efficiency of a heat pump to a gas furnace is really a meaningless exercise.

Heat choice alternatives are compared by calculating relative costs for the projected needs. BTUs are the common measurement in the US, but whether that or kW is used, it's the same. Whatever the efficiency of the equipment is, is inherent in those cost comparisons that look at the cost of the input to produce a given output.

The "advantage" a heat pump has, whether ground source or air source, is that it moves heat rather than produces it. Even with that, it's often a very expensive way to go but, admittedly, is sometimes chosen for houses without natural gas whose owners (because of personal preferences or other reasons) don't want to use other alternatives.

fsq4cw,

Thanks for the lengthy explanation. I asked the question in order to compare the efficiencies of air and ground sourced heat pumps. Comparing it to a gas furnace makes no sense for those who do not have access to natural gas.

For the heating side the Carrier Greenspeed has COP values of about 4.5 and 2.5 for outdoor temperatures of 47 and 17 degrees respectively. In comparison the Waterfurnace Series 7 lists COP values of 5.3 and 3.5 for water temperatures of 41 and 35 degrees respectively. This is comparing a 3 ton heat pump. Both systems require back up heat strips.

On the cooling side the geothermal efficiency is significantly better. The Greenspeed EER is about 13.5 compared to the Series 7 which ranges from 22 to 37 for the 3 ton size.

So with this information the potential buyer has to calculate the estimated energy savings of the geothermal heat pump versus a air sourced heat pump. There is no simple formula because their are so many variables and unknowns. Locations where the summers are very hot the savings with the geothermal would be very good. Locations where winters are very cold the savings would be smaller based on the spec numbers.

In summary geothermal heat pumps will cost less to operate than an air sourced heat pump but the amount saved is difficult to calculate. When the federal tax credits end on December 31 homeowners should have to think carefully if the higher investment in a geothermal system makes financial sense.

"When the federal tax credits end on December 31 homeowners should have to think carefully if the higher investment in a geothermal system makes financial sense."

What do you predict for the future of GSHPs if the credit expires? Obviously residential installations will suffer, but I've heard about many commercial/institutional installations as well( I believe the latter don't qualify for the credit). Would geothermal be mostly relegated to non-residential?

In my opinion geothermal makes sense for a commercial installations which have big heating and cooling loads. It is not nearly as attractive to heat and cool a 2000 sq. foot house that is well insulated if there is no tax credit incentive. This is especially true in the north east where natural gas is widely available and digging a well is very expensive.

Mike:

I think there might be things
you’re overlooking. Comparing outdoor temperatures and ground temperatures to
arrive at COP is misleading. While it's true that ambient outdoor temperatures
correspond directly to COP with air-source HPs, it is not so with ground
source. When the outdoor temperature is not +17˚F but -17˚F the Waterfurnace
Series 7 is still running at a COP of 3.5 to 5.3, depending on the heat loss of
the envelope and stage the HP is running at. With the higher ground temperature
as compared to the outdoor air temperature, the geothermal HP is far more
efficient than even Greenspeed. Geothermal has no defrost cycles. Backup is
only used to assist the geo when the
envelope heat loss is greater than the capacity of the HP or when the
compressor is in lockout. The two work together till the set temp has been
satisfied (except in lockout). The geo is never producing cold air and working
against the backup, as an air-source HP system does in defrost.

While Greenspeed is very efficient, I personally would not
own a home, other than perhaps a condo that does not have geothermal. I would
not even look at anything else. Fortunately, my wife agrees. It’s a personal
choice. It goes beyond money, there are other factors. After living with
geothermal for over a dozen years, being professionally involved with
geothermal, and almost every other technology as well, we can’t be convinced of
anything otherwise.

I’ve often said and do
believe that in the end everyone does what they perceive is best for them.

Regarding calculations for
comparison, there is always a way. Once estimates are calculated for any
particular form of energy, they can be converted into another unit of measure
that’s easy to understand and work with, such as kW.

IMPO

SR

I personally would not own a home, other than perhaps a condo that does not have geothermal. I would not even look at anything else. Fortunately, my wife agrees. It’s a personal choice. It goes beyond money, there are other factors.

Can you elaborate on this? To me, it's almost worth it just to not have a condensing unit. We're building on 8 acres of forest of very tall oak trees, you can't see or hear the neighbors most of the year, so it would be a shame to disturb that peace with a condensing unit running all the time. But beyond any potential savings on your energy bills, I'm curious what other intangible benefits you've discovered in the twelve years of ownership.

fsq4cw,

You are probably correct that I am over simplifying the comparison of the efficiency of water sourced and air sourced heat pumps. You are far more of an expert than I will ever be.

Most homeowners would be willing to spend more money upfront on a geothermal heat pump if they there is a return on their additional investment. Unfortunately it is very difficult to calculate. But I suppose there are those like yourself that would be be willing to pay more for the other advantages a geothermal system provides. There is nothing wrong with making that choice provided the buyer understands the costs and benefits.

Re: Andy I

“But beyond any potential
savings on your energy bills, I'm curious what other intangible benefits you've
discovered in the twelve years of ownership.”

While it’s true that a
condensing unit outdoors does disturb the peace, the ‘noise’ will be moved
inside, hopefully somewhere where it will not be heard or much of a bother.

These are some of the
reasons why I want geothermal.

We condition our homes to
protect us from the extremes of the weather, when we have machinery operating
in those same extremes they cannot last as long as machinery operating within
the conditioned envelope.

I know that when we are on
vacation we don’t have to worry about our heating anywhere near as much as with
any other form of heating. Nor do we have
to worry about vandalism or even theft of our unit. Our HP has not needed a
repair or service call since the day it was installed almost 13-years ago. That
would be very unusual for an air-source HP, gas or oil furnace. We do not have
a service contract, this alone I’m sure has saved well over a thousand dollars.
Changing the air filter and every year or so cleaning the evaporator coil is
something I can easily do myself, as well as replacing a fan belt. A gas
furnace would have to be serviced at least annually. Regarding gas, I would not like to pay for
yet another utility hookup particularly during the many months when it would
not even be used!

Geothermal consumes no hydrocarbons,
requires no chimneys, chimney liners, annual cleanings to prevent fires, side
vents, CO or gas detectors, fuel storage tanks, gas or fuel lines or liability
issues with insurance companies.

IMPO

SR

Re: AndyII

When this geothermal HP
needs replacement, it will cost at most what a high-end air-source HP system
will cost. The ground loops will probably outlast the building, possibly by
hundreds of years. Right now the HP is at most only half way through its life
cycle. The HP looks exactly as it did
the day it was installed. I know what a 13-year old air-source HP looks like;
I’ve replaced many of them for other people.

My experience with
geothermal heat pumps is that most seem to be built like commercial refrigeration
equipment and less like residential heat pumps or air-conditioners. When
properly designed and installed they’re like the old rotary telephone – ultra
reliable, set it and forget it.

As for your new home Andy,
you may have space on your property to install a horizontal ground loop or perhaps
a pond loop that may be less expensive than a vertical loop. If you travel and
are away from home often, nothing else offers the efficiency and peace of mind
that geothermal does.

Research it and see if it’s
for you. It certainly is for us!

IMPO

SR

While it’s true that a condensing unit outdoors does disturb the peace, the ‘noise’ will be moved inside, hopefully somewhere where it will not be heard or much of a bother.

Huh? Why would the noise be moved inside? Instead of a fan forcing air over a condensing coil, you have pipes buried in the ground. There should be no noise moved inside. The noise inside would be the same with either system, a fan forcing air through ductwork. In light of your seemingly expert comments I'm totally baffled right now. Either I completely misunderstand how GSHPs work (and the noise they generate), or I completely am misunderstanding your comment...what's the deal here?

That said, I appreciate your comment and think I agree with you overall.

There is no condenser fan, but you will have some noise from the compressor. Nothing that a closed mechanical room door can (almost) completely obscure. Noise level depends on the size of the compressor, I imagine.

I see. Yeah I can't imagine the compressor is going to be louder than the compressor on a refrigerator...but maybe that's where I'm wrong. Is it pretty loud fsq4?

I hear my compressor kick on and then the noise kind of subsides. It's not louder than the oil burner I used to have. The air handler in the attic is not audible except for duct noise. And non-pressurized flow center I have is completely silent.

You also have noise from the two waters pumps. There are three motors running at the same time. I would think pump moving the water anti-freeze mixture has to be large enough to move thousands of gallons up a vertical well.

I think fsq4 is a salesman for or otherwise involved with geothermal products, maybe he can clarify if that's the case. If so, that needs to be considered along with his suggestions.

You also have noise from the two waters pumps. There are three motors running at the same time.

Not in my case. My flow center has a single Grundfos UPS26-99 pump for the loop. There are no other pumps (besides the desuperheater circulator, which is inside the the heat pump cabinet). Other installs have different pump configs based on the amount of pumping power required.

I would think pump moving the water anti-freeze mixture has to be large enough to move thousands of gallons up a vertical well.

The pump must be large enough to do the job, but the job may not be a large as you portray it. I have 4 vertical bores of 200 feet deep each, so 1600 feet of 3/4" ID HDPE plus the 1.25" run to and from the house. Using an online pipe volume calculator, 2000' of 3/4" ID pipe holds less than 50 gallons. I do have approx. 23% propylene glycol as antifreeze, so my loop fluid is heavier than straight H2O, but the 26-99 at 1/6 horsepower has been handling the task for 3 years running. If it's an open loop, then, yes, you will be moving more water. I admit that I do not have any experience with this type of loop, but the pumping requirements probably will vary. The OP hasn't yet specified which type of loop is being considered.

1 of 2

Andy:

Yes, when the compressor is
moved indoors so is the noise. It is a compressor that is much larger and more
powerful than that of a fridge compressor, usually about 4-HP for a 3-ton HP. However,
these heat pumps are usually built to a very high standard with lots of sound
insulation so it should not be a major factor. HP should be placed on a sound
absorbing pad and plenums with about 6-feet of main duct connected to the
plenum should have sound absorbing insulation on its inside. There should also
be a vibration-absorbing break between the HP & plenum. I often watch television,
which is in a family room adjacent to the mechanical room with the door of the
mechanical room left open and it usually doesn’t bother me enough to close the
door – even with the compressor running. All other pumps, such as for flow
center and desuperheater should be almost silent unless you are right beside
them. These should not be an issue.

The number of pumps is
determined by the type of HP, generally up to a 3-ton HP will have flow centers
with 1-pump. 4 & 5-ton HP will have flow centers with 2-pumps (circulators).
These would be all for closed loop ground loops, vertical or horizontal, as
well as for closed pond loops. Opened loop (different from non-pressurized flow
centers) are a different animal. There you would likely have the pump at the
bottom of a well, which would not be heard.

Stickman:

Sounds like you have a
Phoenix QT1-EA Flow Center with a 4-ton HP. If this is correct and each
borehole is 200ft deep, connected in parallel, then I would imagine you have a very
well designed and efficient ground loop & HP system! I hope I’m right for
your sake.

1-circulator for a 4-ton
system seems under sized…

Are the headers in the mechanical
room or buried, assuming parallel, not series configuration?

SR

2 of 2

Regarding my ‘job title’, I
consider myself an independent consultant but what I am is directly dependent
on who is paying me. Sometimes I am a salesman when an HVAC company wants me to
represent them with a specific client. At times I’m a consultant for a
geothermal driller that wants me to visit on-site to evaluate, ‘How the Hell (or
worse…) are we going to drill here’! Other times I’m called in by a home owner
that will tell me that their geothermal system has never worked properly and they don’t believe what their installer
or anyone else is telling them; they’re at their wits end and don’t know what to
do. At other times a homeowner would like to convert to geothermal and would
like an independent opinion, education and advice on what geothermal is and
what it does, will have me consult with them. I’ve also been hired to just over
see a project to be sure everything is done ‘right’ because either the
homeowner or building contractor doesn’t have the knowledge base to understand
everything that goes into a proper installation.

So who am I? That depends on
who is writing the cheque! I always do my utmost to be truthful but I must also
be mindful of whose interests I’m really representing on any given project and
who hands me the pay envelope.

Who am I to me? At this
point I’m retired and am a ‘Home Barista’ having a lot of fun working with
completely different types of ‘boilers’ and rotary pumps. ‘Retired’ doesn’t mean
that I ‘never’ work. It just means that it costs a whole lot more to take me
away from my ‘Latté Art’!

My favorite thing now is to do ‘Coffee Interventions’ where I’ll visit
someone whose grinder or espresso machine is all messed up and they can’t seem
to pull a good shot no matter what they do.

Full disclosure; I always
have a look at their heating & cooling systems too. Can’t help it, it’s in
the blood – that and caffeine!

SR

Thanks for that explanation, the very specific suggestions on how to minimize noise will help when it comes time for me to speak intelligently to the HVAC contractor.

fsq4cw

My flow center is a non-pressurized one pump B & D QT model. The four loops are in parallel and headered outside. With the one pump I am on the low side of the required amount of flow (2.25 gpm/ton instead of 3 gpm/ton), but it's within spec and my heat of extraction / heat of rejection numbers are good.