Roses & plants in heavy clay, pH 8, zone 5a, 38" rain and 23" snow

7 years ago

last modified: 7 years ago

My heavy clay was tested by EarthCo. to have pH 7.7 where amended. The actual pH is much higher near 8, with rock-hard clay.

I have 38" of rain, not as much as Sam in NY with 42" of rain, but with my 3 rain-barrels plus 4 large garbage cans to collect rain .. I'm catching up with Sam.

I don't fix clay for trees nor grass .. those like clay. For roses I fix my heavy clay with coarse sand and gypsum, plus chunky stuff like pine bark, leaves, and wood-chips.

Some pics. taken today June 11, 2016: tiny tomato which I got a pack of 6 for $2, planted in mid-May are getting big. I put gypsum and Tomato Tone in the planting hole, plus top with red-lava-rock for potassium. Very strong & thick stem.

24 tomatoe in front with red-peony. I also have 6 tomato in the back, on raised bed.

Christopher Marlowe, always healthy, zero diseases:

Dee-lish rose in a pot. Got from Roses Unlimited mid-May, I pinched off 3 buds, lots of new growth as of today, June 11, 2016:

Tomato on a raised bed with red-lava rock, bearing tiny green fruits:

End of 1st flush for Radio Times rose, 5th year own-root, pic. shows part of the rose.

W.S. 2000, 5th-year own-root, dug up 5 times to fix poor drainage, finally worked with 2' wide x 3 ' deep.

Betty White doesn't like the excessive iron in molasses, plus excessive sulfate of potash, got brown edges on bloom. Leaves are very healthy, zero pests.

Duchess de Rohan always healthy, zero pests. Lots of gypsum in planting hole, topped with pea-gravel. The tiny rose in lowest right is Sharifa Asma .. it's a micro-mini as own-root .. Sharifa hates my clay .. will dig that up to improve with sand.

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strawchicago z5
Original Author

6 years ago

last modified: 6 years ago

Thank you, floweraremusic, for taking the time to help others with sticky when wet & rock-hard when dry alkaline clay. Pine-needles are neutral in pH (I tested it, plus others testified the same). Soil is still rock hard under pine-needles.. I have 4 large white-pines in my garden.

But pine bark and pine-shavings are acidic at pH 4.

Agree with you 100% that acidic pine bark at pH 4 on top helps to soften hard clay underneath. However, other alkaline wood-chips don't work. One year I spent $200 on those fluffly & dark mulch, that broke down quickly, and the soil under is still rock-hard.

Mushroom compost has very high pH. The ingredients listed on the mushroom compost bag: composted horse manure. I tested the pH and was shock to see its being more alkaline than my soil (pH 8). It depends on the type of bedding used for horse poop, if it's pine-shavings, then it's acidic at pH 4, but if it's alkaline sawdust, then it's alkaline. Depends if lime is added to the horse manure (my local stable does that, which shot up the pH to 8.5).

I quit getting composted horse manure from local stable, since its alkalinity compacts my clay further. I no longer trust any bagged stuff after disasters with bagged cow manure, and bagged sand .. both have quick-lime added to deodorize & kill weeds.

Gypsum (the fine grains) works better than the large-grain. The fine grains has a higher % of acidic sulfur than the large grain (mostly calcium). Menards used to sell the large-particle gypsum, now they switch over to the fine-grains gypsum. If I get tired of digging into the dense-clay at bottom, I spread gypsum, pour a bucket of water. Few hours later, the acid of gypsum helps to dislodge the rocks & soften the clay.

Putting gypsum around the harden soil (around rose-bush) helps water to go deeper. The soil around Marie Pavie is so hard, that water could sink in, I poured a bucket of water, and it FLOODED over, rather than soak in. So I spread some gypsum, before fall-rain. In spring, water was able to soak through, without flooding over.

Heirloom rose nursery in rainy Oregon recommends 50% woodchips mix-in to aerate dense clay and to provide drainage. It works for high-rain area (I have 38" of rain and 23 to 29" of snow), but DOES NOT WORK for dry area. In a hilly location, where water drains fast, I mixed 50% pine-bark (pH 4) with 50% alkaline clay (pH 8) ... a year later I dug that up, and it's completely dry, can't hold moisture like the place where I layered 50% leaves, grass clippings, or sand.

Also mix-in pine bark (pH 4) robs soil of nitrogen, versus high-nitrogen grass clippings at NPK 4-1-2, compared to alfalfa meal at NPK 2-1-2.

Sand has it downfall, I didn't know that the bagged sand at stores have nasty chemical quick lime added that shot up the pH to 9. The alkalinity of quick-lime hardens my clay further. Sand plus clay killed 3 of my own-root Austins last wet winter.

For dry alkaline clay, the best solution is mulching with grass-clippings or leaves. Grass-clippings (high in nitrogen) is the best choice. Grass-clippings is even more acidic than leaves, thus softens hard & alkaline clay well. The soil under grass-clippings has more earthworms than the soil under leaves, and the soil under leaves is wetter than the soil under wood-chips.

There's one guy in Houzz forum who layered his grass-clippings over his rose. A year later he had to dig into that spot, and it's completely fluffy, compared to other areas of his garden with LARGE & COMPACT chunks of clay.

I tested his approach, it works wonder, but one has to RAKE the grass-clippings into the clay while it's fresh & fluffy, otherwise grass matts up into a hard-sheath on top. One summer I raked FRESH grass-clippings into clay, then plant tomatoes 2 weeks later, and got a bumper crop ... I didn't have to water my tomatoes, since there's so much moisture inside grass clippings.

I collected 100+ bags of leaves last fall, and I was disappointed that the soil under the leaves are still compact & dense. Leaves decompose to slightly alkaline, versus grass-clippings stay acidic for a long time, same with pine-bark (pH 4) .. but pine-bark makes soil drier & robs soil of nitrogen & and works only for rainy climate.

I collected 20+ bags of grass clippings from neighbors and didn't have time to rake into soil, I mulched my roses with that, and areas with grass-clippings on top .. the soil underneath is fluffy & loamy & broken down by the acid of the grass-clippings on top. It takes less than 3 months for the soil underneath grass-clippings to be softened. Alfalfa hay, sold for $8 per huge bale at feed-store, works the same, but takes much longer since alfalfa hay is less acidic at pH 5.8, compared to peat moss (pH 4), and even more acidic grass-clippings. Alfalfa hay has NPK 3-1-2, less nitrogen than grass-clippings at NPK 4-1-2.

The problem with peat moss? It's acidic, but it's such a fine & dusty particle that it glues right into clay into concrete few years later. But grass clippings is LARGE CHUNK so it breaks up clay well with its fiber & acidity. Plus peatmoss has zero nutrients, breaks down fast to neutral pH and glues right into alkaline clay.

Whatever alkaline (quick lime) will harden clay further. Whatever acidic, cracked corn (pH 4), grass clippings (pH below 4), and pine bark (pH 4) SOFTEN clay and break up hard-minerals with its acid. Fine-grain gypsum has 21% sulfur, compared to bigger-grain gypsum at 17%.

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Comments (58)

Khalid Waleed (zone 9b Isb)
7 years ago
Fabulous. Excellenz von Schubert looks fantastic. How is the fragrance of Pink Peace?
strawchicago z5 thanked Khalid Waleed (zone 9b Isb)
User
7 years ago
Everything looks great and healthy. Nice gardening. Good collection of trees too.
strawchicago z5 thanked User
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Sharon: THANK YOU FOR THOSE FANTASTIC PICTURES !! I also did red-cabbage test today Sat. 7/25/20. Distilled water boiled in red cabbage is actually acidic according to on-line info. "Pure distilled water should be neutral with a pH of 7, but because it absorbs carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, it's actually slightly acidic with a pH of 5.8." From your pictures above, the grayish blue solution is alkaline with pH 7.5. My pH 7.7 clay is a bit bluer (tested by Earth Corp. soil testing company). Black, gray, or clear solution is neutral pH .. means it's a fantastic buffer (good for plants). I tested COMPOSTED grass clippings and it's clear water above black solution. Buffer is great to neutralize the acidity of rain. Clay buffers better than sand/loamy soil, but the best buffer is composted organic matter. Coffee is also a buffer (at first pinkish, but after 20 min., it's a clear solution). COMPOSTED plant-matter is very alkaline and neutralizes acidic rain well. COMPOSTED leaves decompose to alkaline pH, when I stuffed a bunch of leaves in LOAMY & fluffy soil .. the next year that got converted into HARD CLAY, very alkaline. Green grass clippings stay fluffy longer (more nitrogen & more acidic). Brown leaves are considered "carbon" in a compost pile, and decompose to alkaline pH & hard like clay. My tap-water in red-cabbage is VERY BLUE, it's at pH 9 as stated on village's website. I also tested baking soda and it's more blue than my tap-water. I tested paver's sand or yellow coarse sand, and it's slightly alkaline. I tested composted manure and it's very alkaline (from the lime added to deodorize and kill weeds in the bag). The pH of composted manure is just as alkaline as my clay at pH 7.7. Your LAST pic. is slightly acidic. Rain-water is even more acidic & reddish purple. Rain water here is pH 4.5. I also tested some drops of vinegar and it's fuchsia red around pH 3. All my rooting-soil for cuttings are black or clear solution at neutral pH (they have lots of yellow sand or vermiculite mixed in). The clay taken from diseased & black spotted roses are slightly acidic, rather than blue like my pH 7.7 clay. I had tested 5 different roses with black spots in the past, and the soil taken from the root level is pinkish in red-cabbage juice. It's either acidic rain can't drain well from that spot, or else there's NOT enough buffer to neutralize the heavy rain going down.
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strawchicago z5
Original Author
7 years ago
Khalid: Pink Peace smells like butter frosting and floral. The scent was much stronger on own-root Pink Peace. Grafted Pink Peace on Dr.Huey-rootstock: the scent isn't as good. One more reason to grow own-roots.
Khalid Waleed (zone 9b Isb)
7 years ago
Yes I agree. My experience on own root roses is also very good so far.
strawchicago z5 thanked Khalid Waleed (zone 9b Isb)
User
7 years ago
Straw

I hope you put more pictures in your good Bouquet Thread too.

1st tomato. I started the plants indoors in March. That's early. June 12 for a tomato. Most of my plants are starting to grow. I am making my first batch of aerated compost tea to spray on my roses.

I will start aerated today June 14 will be done tomorrow. With my 5 gallon bucket and my new compost tea bag.

I will spray with my quart size sprayer.
strawchicago z5 thanked User
strawchicago z5
Original Author
7 years ago
Sam: I might start a new thread for "Bouquet of no-spray roses" .. the old one is too long. I appreciate your posting any freshly-pick blooms. Jim once posted a few Knock-outs in a vase, and I liked that .. a bouquet doesn't have to be fancy. My blooms have such short neck from cluster-blooming that I use a shallow-bowl (the type for casserole), and float blooms in.
strawchicago z5
Original Author
7 years ago

Marie Pavie is the best looking bush in my alkaline heavy clay. In summer above 100 degree, the bush blooms well with sulfate of potash/gypsum, and still looks great in high heat. It's hardy to zone 4, and bloomed early May.
Kelly Tregaskis Collova
7 years ago
Wow! Your roses are gorgeous and their foliage looks incredible! !
strawchicago z5 thanked Kelly Tregaskis Collova
strawchicago z5
Original Author
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
My secrets of healthy roses in heavy alkaline clay?
1. Pay more money for own-root roses .. roots can spread out, rather than water-flow being restricted to a tight-bud-union.
2. Dig deep for drainage, at least 2.5' deep x 2 feet wide. There were 2 roses that blackspotted in late fall (tons of rain), dug down 2.5' deep and found a giant rock the size of a long-watermelon. If roots are soaked long in water, they will blackspot, plus more likely to die through the winter.
3. Make soil loamy below for tender roots, but upper surface need ALKALINE minerals to buffer acidic rain (pH of rain is 5.6). During heavy rain, I put lime, or pea-gravel, or red-lava rock (high in potassium and iron, pH 8.2).
TALK IS CHEAP, that's what folks do in Rose forum. The best proof is CURRENT pics. of roses AFTER BLOOMING. Roses tend to become diseased after blooming, due to depletion of potassium & calcium & other nutrients used up for blooms.

Here are pictures in my garden, taken today, June 29, after their 1st flush .. all are 100% healthy, I use alfalfa-tea, pea-gravel, red-lava-rock, and sulfate of potash (if alkaline tap-water is used).

Below is Betty White, own-root bought last year:

Below is own-root blue Mist, total neglect next to a bush:

Below is the base of my own-root Comte de Chambord, 100% healthy at the start of its 2nd flush. Pic. taken June 29.

Below is the base of Crown Princess Magareta, own-root, pic. taken end of its 1st flush, June 29:

Below is Excellenz von Schubert is partial shade, 100% healthy for the past 4 years. The only time it broke out in blackspot was when I gave it acidic Brewer's Yeast at pH 4. Pic. taken today June 29:
strawchicago z5
Original Author
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
Below is Kordes Flowercarpet Coral, blooming in less than 4 hours of sun, in rock-hard clay, pH over 8. All pics. taken today, June 29, hot & humid:

Gene Boerner got winter-killed down to 6 inch., but bouched back, mulched with grass-clippings (free from neighbors):

Golden Celebration in the worst spot in my garden, next to a rain-spout that dump 32-gallons of water in less than 10 minute. Already dug down to 2.5 feet deep, but will have to make the hole larger to take a huge influx of rain. I have to give it frequent sulfate of potash to prevent blackspots in such a wet area.

Below Gruss an Teplitz is always healthy as own-root for the past 4 years. Apricot is Sundowner got from Menards for $5. Below pic. taken June 29, 1015:

Another bare-root stick got from Menards for $4 last month: Heirloom rose, very healthy:

Another cheap-grafted on Dr. Huey from Meijers, lavender rose, it's really short, but with 7 buds .. died to crown in winter, start of 2nd flush today June 29:

My vote for the healthiest rootstock: Centifolia that Khalid's roses are grafted on. This is Centifolia Le Nia Rias, a once-bloomer, zero diseases for the past 4 years, while Dr.Huey at neighbors broke out in mildew !! June 29 pic.

Marie Pavie, always healthy, this June 29 pic is the end of its 1st flush which lasted 2 months. It bloomed from May 1st to end of June.

Below is Mary Magdalene, start of 2nd flush. This Austin loves the Alaska pellets NPK 4-6-6, plus alfafa tea. Always healthy for 5 years as own-root:

Pink Peace, right next to rain-barrel that dumps excess rain water on it. Leaves got holes from too much rain-water. It was a BS-fest when first bought, then I dug it up to put 4 cups of lime in the planting hole last summer, now healthy on June 29, at the start of 2nd flush:
strawchicago z5
Original Author
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
The most healthy rose in my garden is Stephen Big Purple, zero blackspots for the past 4 years. How good the drainage, how much alkaline minerals in the soil, and how fluffy the soil is determine the health of a rose. It's next to a limestone patio, so it gets plenty of calcium, plus I give it sulfate of potash. I direct the over-flow of rain-barrel right on this rose, so it gets 32-gallon of water dumping every 10 min, but still healthy due to pea-gravel I put on top:

Below is the base of Big Purple hybrid tea, pic. taken today, June 29 in hot & humid weather.

Another healthy rose is Radio Times, get big & wide in my rock-hard alkaline clay. All pics. taken today, June 29, end of its 1st flush. Will have to sprinkle sulfate of potash before it rains tomorrow. Potassium mobility is a 3, it leaches out with rain. Potassium is needed for disease-prevention, it makes leaves thicker & stronger against pests & fungal spores.
strawchicago z5
Original Author
7 years ago

Lavender rose, got for $8 from Meijers (grafted-on-Dr.Huey). Healthy with pea-gravel and red-lava-rock in planting hole. Pic. taken July 3.

Above is Gruss an Teplitz in hot & dry weather July 3, healthy.

Above is the bad clay & rocks which I dug up at 2.5 feet level to throw away. I throw away at least four 5-gallons big buckets of bad stuff per planting hole. The secret of healthy roses in clay: dig deep for drainage, and throw away the bad stuff that prevent roots from going deep.

Above is the culprit for blackspots in 2 of my roses: Sweet Promise 2007 and Firefighter .. IT'S A GIANT ROCK WHICH BLOCKED DRAINAGE. Both broke out in BS when we had tons of rain. Firefighter died through the winter, and I dug down past 2 feet and found this giant rock which prevented water from draining. Will buy Firefighter again, since Karl Bapst zone 5a said it's winter-hardy.
strawchicago z5
Original Author
7 years ago
After 2 weeks of hot & dry, we get into humid & rainy weather: All day rain yesterday, and all day rain today, but Excellenz Von Schubert is always healthy, and perfume my front walkway. Picture taken July 7.

Marie Pavie is 100% clean in constant rain & humid weather July 7:

Below Mary Magdalene is healthy in rainy & humid July 7 weather. Note the yellow & brown leaves, it's acid-burn from sulfate of potash. Really mad at myself for being lazy and didn't dilute in water. Lesson learned: NO GRANULAR FERTILIZER AFTER JUNE, TOO HOT AND IT BURNS PLANTS.

Below is Pink Peace bloom, huge. Pic. taken hot & dry July 3:

Below is Pink Peace bush, after I cut 4 blooms off for my experiments. It was a BS-fest, until I dug up last year to put at least 1/2 gallon of dolomitic lime in the planting hole. Pic. taken today, July 7, rainy and very humid weather:
strawchicago z5
Original Author
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago

Comte own-root is healthy today, July 7 pic. Below is the 2nd-comte, also healthy. Both own-roots used to break out in Blackspots after blooming in their 1st year, until I give them sulfate of potash for alkaline tap water, or red-lava-rock/pea-gravel for acidic rain. Very humid, all-day rain July 7:

Blue Mist is my favorite, never see blackspot nor mildew on that rose. I fertilized once in spring, and never water it & it's next to a large bush. Pic. taken July 7 & rainy & humid:

Below is alyssum and blue petunia. When I used to get horse manure (high in phosphorus), the same alyssum turned burgundy red (phosphorus shift blooms to the red zone). Now I put red-lava-rock (high in potassium), and that shift blooms to the blue zone: really blue petunias and more blue alyssum.
strawchicago z5
Original Author
7 years ago

Second time in 16 years that I have ripe tomato for 4th of July ... Best tomato ever this year, thanks to a few pieces of red-lava-rock on top (for potassium), gypsum, sand, and Tomato Tone to fix my hard clay.

Pic. above taken July 7, after all-day & all-night long. Note the dark-green color & lots of fruits despite my soil pH near 8. I mulched with grass-clippings. Zero pests, zero worms thanks to 100% organics: red-lava-rock and Tomato-Tone.
strawchicago z5
Original Author
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago

Note the above pale leaves: it's from 2 watering with my tap-water pH near 9, which immediately caused pale leaves on Christopher Marlowe. Pic. taken July 7.
Above is Evelyn .. she doesn't mind tap-water pH near 9 .. healthy and glossy foliage. July 7 pic. Lots of buds despite in less than 5 hours of sun.

Above Pat Austin stays dark-green despite tap-water with pH near 9.

Above is Dee-list, received mid-May as gallon-own-root, now over 3 feet tall .. pic. taken July 7. Found 3 leaves with blackspots after all day & all-night rain, I gave it sulfate of potash but did not raise the pH.

Above is Munstead Wood, own-root received mid-May, it's 100% clean in humid & rainy weather of July 7. I raised the pH by giving it "mineral-water" with pea-gravel and red-lava-rock. Plus top with pea-gravel & red-lava & a bit of sulfate of potash. It's in less than 4 hours of sun. In agricultural large-scale study with soy-bean crops, sulfate of potash and lime BEAT FUNGICIDES in yield.
strawchicago z5
Original Author
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago

Above is hybrid tea "Neil Diamond" received from Roses Unlimited mid-June. It was pale & dull but thick leaves. I gave it sulfate of potash & gypsum to make it darker-green, leaves became even thicker !! Then I gave it pea-gravel, and leaves became glossy. Pic. taken July 7 in humid & rainy weather.

Below is Sundowner hybrid tea grafted on Dr. Huey planted 1 month ago as a bare-root dry-stick. I planted in my clay, and neglected it since it's cheap (only $7). Quite healthy .. I spent 1/2 hour digging the hole for drainage. Now I spend more time on the hole to save myself from blackspot or dying through the winter later.
strawchicago z5
Original Author
7 years ago

Above is double-delight pic. taken today, July 12 at 87 F and 59% humidity. I bought it for $4 as bare-root at Walmart two months ago. It's at the start of its 2nd flush, there are some holes in the leaves due to compact clay, but zero blackspots.

Below pic. is double delight taken last month, with rain & during its 1st flush ... healthy foliage despite acidic rain.
Jade Woo
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
Wonderful to see how your roses thrive in heavy clay! My property sits on commercial grade clay deposit (I have white kaolin clay, also yellow clay in different area of the garden) - my neighbor next door was an old kaolin mine - now the mines are flooded with water and turned into trout farm. When we moved here a few years ago, the top soil was a meager 10 cm but has slowly improved over the last couple of years. My pH is similar to yours, roughly 9. So far I have been amending mine with sharp sand, chicken, geese and horse manure (from my own flock), as well as coarse compost. Part of the garden I now grow lupin as green manure. I am a relative new rose grower (4 years) but so far my 50+ roses seemed to like it. Although not going to lie, it's back breaking work trying to dig into the clay. I am in Africa, we have dry summer and wet winter. My biggest issue is drainage, no matter how much I dig, in winter down pour part of my garden always get flooded and the holes I dug turned into sump filled with water. I would like to give gypsum a try some time this year.
strawchicago z5 thanked Jade Woo
Khalid Waleed (zone 9b Isb)
7 years ago
Straw: Your Excellenz Von Schubert looks superb, so does Pink Peace, Mary Magdalene, GaT and Lavender Rose. How is the fragrance of Excellenz Von Schubert and Lavender Rose?

Your tomatoes looks great too. I used to have similar looking cherry tomatoes in my garden 3 years back and they did extremely well in my very hot cliamate (that place was much hotter than Islamabad).

The foliage of almost all your roses, less one odd, is simply outstanding. Couldn't be better. I had similar looking foliage in spring but now many roses have curled leaves. I was expecting to see more blooms in your garden by now, BTW. Hope to see more pics.

best regards
strawchicago z5 thanked Khalid Waleed (zone 9b Isb)
strawchicago z5
Original Author
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
Hi Jade: Welcome to Organic Rose forum. Jade can be either a boy or a girl name, may I ask which one? Thanks. Nice to hear from you from the southern tip of South Africa. Jess who posts here is from South Africa, below is her garden profile in HMF, she has acidic red clay.

https://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=3.24680

Would love to see pics. of your garden and chicken, geese & animals & roses. My Mom used to raise chickens in Michigan, where I grew up.

Gypsum and sharp sand are vital to break up heavy clay. I can't possibly get enough sand to fix clay, so gypsum helps. Gypsum softens clay with its acid (17% sulfur), so it breaks apart, then sand coats each clump to prevent them from sticking together.

I tried everything to break up clay: leaves, wood-chips (worst !!), horse manure, compost, alfalfa hay, cracked corn (pH 4), pine bark (pH 4), Canadian peat moss ... everything glued up with clay within 1 or 2 years.

Coarse sand don't break down like organic matter/woodchips, and stay fluffy over a decade under heavy brick/clay. Same with gypsum, put 4 cups at the bottom of the hole, a year later, the bottom is nice and fluffy, rather than hard-chunk.

There's a British guy who posted Rose Hugel in Organic rose few years ago. He put tree-stumps & wood pieces (vertically-aligned) so the wood-grain wicks the moisture like a straw. His roses in pots are 100% healthy, zero blackspots.

That's the logic behind "Hugel garden" where folks put tree branches at the bottom of a raised bed, then fill the top with soil. In my cold zone 5a, poor-drainage & frozen water in holes killed over $1,000 of my roses for the past 2 decades ..

Agree with you that It's a real pain to dig deep through rock-hard bottom, so I put gypsum in the bottom of the hole, pour some water & come back 1 hour later, it becomes nice & soft & loose for further digging. With that trick I'm able to dig down to 3 feet or 0.9 meter and throw away at least 2 large wheelbarrow of dense clay and rocks.
strawchicago z5
Original Author
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
Khalid: Just saw your post, thanks for your nice comments. I'm going to kill my Centifolia rose Le Nia Rias today ... too invasive in my clay, sending countless suckers all over, 4 feet away right into my peonies. Plus Centifolia is really good in picking up nitrogen ... bush gets huge & bushy plus aggressive suckering. I chop down 5 suckers a week, then they pop up again ! Ridiculously healthy, but super-invasive.

We are in between flushes, my sister visited Chicago Botanical garden this week (July 11), and she took only 2 pics. of their 5,000 roses !! She said roses are at the end of 1st flush, so very little blooms.

Comte de Chambord is a continuous bloomer for me, there's no gap in between. Here's own-root Comte de Chambord (top scent among the 100 varieties I grew) Pic. taken July 10. This rose was a BS-fest at first, it took me 1 year to figure out how to keep it clean. Now it's in 4th year.

It would bloom more if I give it granular fertiilzer NPK 4-6-6, but it's risky in hot & dry weather, so I gave it SOLUBLE sulfate of potash/gypsum. Too much fertilizer can induce diseases, and my heavy clay is already fertile, just need some acid to release the nutrients.
strawchicago z5
Original Author
7 years ago
Bolero is also a "continuous bloomer", it's a floribunda with zillion of petals. Glossy foliage has a higher demand for minerals, same with many petals. Despite my soil pH near 8, I have to give dolomitic lime (pH over 9) to supply calcium and magnesium. If I don't give it Garden lime, blooms become less petals. It happens every year !!
strawchicago z5
Original Author
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago

David Austin rose, Wise Portia is another that like alkaline clay. I give this Garden Lime (pH over 9) when we get tons of acidic rain. It used to mildew on me in its 1st year ... until I give it Garden Lime (lowest salt index of any minerals, at 4 versus 8 for gypsum). It's in its 5th year as own-root.
strawchicago z5
Original Author
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago

Above is own-root Crimson Glory, healthy in alkaline clay. I killed it last fall, stingy as own-root, plus less petals in the heat. Firefighter is a far better rose as own-root, which I save the space for. I'll grow Firefighter again, but no regrets killing Crimson Glory, despite its health.
strawchicago z5
Original Author
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago

Above is Paul Neyron as own-root in my alkaline clay. Did great & very healthy in partial shade, until poor-drainage & harsh winter killed it. I'll order that again, but will dig a giant hole for good drainage. Really miss that rose since it's almost thornless & fantastic scent.
Kelly Tregaskis Collova
7 years ago
A Reverence For Roses has paul neyron and has really nice size bands. I ordered this one as it is listed to zone 4....Prices are between $8 and $15 and they are having a sale right now through July 16- $10 credited back to you for every 4 roses ordered, $25 for 8 and $40 credited back to you with purchase of 12. They ship on Mondays and are really fast. I got mine Wednesday. ..
strawchicago z5 thanked Kelly Tregaskis Collova
Khalid Waleed (zone 9b Isb)
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
Straw: Very detailed feed back. Thanks for the effort.

Now, whenever you mention about the fascinating scent of Comte de Champbord, I get frustrated when I realise that this rose is not available to me locally but now I have started looking for options that how can I get it.

BTW, Peter Beals offers it as a replacement for Gertrude Jekyll. https://www.classicroses.co.uk/comte-de-chambord-shrub-rose.html

Do you grow Gertrude Jekyll too and if yes, how do you compare their scents in quality and intensity? I grow Gertrude Jekyll and have a fair idea of its scent.

Your Paul Neyron died in winters? Isn't it supposed to be hardy up to zone 4? BTW, how true it is that roses that perform well in extreme cold are also the ones that perform well in extreme heat.... what is the scientific reason for this Straw?

And I am surprised to hear that your Crimson Glory was stingy as own root. I have Crimson Glory on own roots as well as on centifolia root stock. My own root is more vigorous than my grafted one. A friend of mine has lot of large size Crimson Glory bushes in his house. Some of them are over 20 years old and they are huge. They trim them heavily each year to keep them within 8-10 feet size. They are all on own roots.

These are all different bushes planted in different portions of the house and they are all huge. The one in last pic is just 4 years old and look at the size. All on own roots. I am sad you killed you CG....

Is it possible that your Crimson Glory was stingy not because it was on own roots but due to some other reason?

best regards
strawchicago z5 thanked Khalid Waleed (zone 9b Isb)
strawchicago z5
Original Author
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
Khalid: Thank you for those gorgeous bush-shot of Crimson Glory. There are 2 types of Crimson Glory: hybrid-tea-type and the climbing type. The hybrid-tea is listed as 30" or 0.7 meter, while the climbing type is 10' or 12', or 3 meter to 3.6 meter.

The hybrid-tea bush is really wimpy !! Folks in warm CA recommended the climbing type, since it's more vigorous. I have the hybrid-tea-type, plus own-root, plus cold-zone so it's triple-wimpy.

Gertrude Jekyll had zero scent at Chicago Botanical Garden after cool & rainy spring. Comte de Chambord is fragrant regardless of weather, be it 90 F or 60 F. Blooms fry in hot sun & need shade, but Comte is grown in several zone 9a garden in HMF.

I can't have my nose stuck in Comte 24/7, so I prefer wafting, or scented rose that perfumes the entire room, or entire garden. Perle d'Or and Marie Daly have the same quality of scent as Comte, but perfumes the entire area .. they are almost thornless and heat & drought & disease resistant.

Paul Neyron likes excellent drainage, it died in a poor-drainage & wet clay, and not because of my winter.

My problem with Crimson-glory is triple-wimpy, plus blooms: fragrant at 1st, but lose its scent after 2nd day in the vase, plus much less petals than Firefighter. Burlington nursery carries hybrid-tea-type rather than climbing-type, it's smaller for their pots, but become tiny-wimps in rock-hard clay and brutal winter. My Crimson-glory was small like a mini-rose !!
strawchicago z5
Original Author
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
Own-root Evelyn likes my alkaline clay. Pic. taken today, July 15:

2-month-old own-root-Poisedon was stingy in a pot, only 2 blooms. I planted in my clay (fixed with cracked corn & pine-bark). In less than 2 weeks, it broke out in 9 buds, pic. taken today, July 15:

Betty White is a near-continuous bloomer, this is her 3rd flush, I put cracked corn (pH 4) & alfalfa pellets (pH 5.8) in my pH near 8 clay. Betty has the best scent out of Cantigny's 1200 roses, and out of Chicago Botanical Garden's 5000 roses. It's among the top 10 scents in my garden. Pic. taken today July 15:
flowersaremusic z5 Eastern WA
6 years ago
I will add my experience to this thread in hopes it may help someone else with heavy, dense, rocky clay soil that is sticky when wet - so sticky, it will pull my shoes off my feet and dries into hard chunks. I will add here that this is a dry climate with cold winters and very hot summers. Average rainfall is 16.5". I use a pick axe to dig holes, and a long heavy piece of rebar to pry out huge rocks that are wedged against other huge rocks with a lot of smaller rocks all wedged in between. I say "I" but in reality, it is more often my husband or the young man I hire to dig holes and do heavy work in the garden. The property was an undisturbed pine grove before we cleared it to build. The soil was not soft and crumbly like I thought it would be considering all the years of pine needles laying on top.

To prepare a bed for roses (most are own root, but a few are grafted onto Dr. Huey), I dig the holes at least 2'x2', larger for large bushes or climbers, and plant the roses in a mixture of plant based compost (the kind delivered by truckload) a small amount of native soil, 1/4 - 1/3 bag of mushroom compost to keep the soil from compacting, and a little Rose Tone or Plant Tone. I have used a few handfuls coarse sand when I have it, but not always. After planting the roses and making a well around the base of each, I lay newspaper, 4 sheets thick, overlapping, up to but not over the well area, then a lay down a few inches of compost on top of the newspaper, then 4"-6" of arborist pine wood chip mulch on top of the compost. It seems deep, but it settles and decomposes. Since I've been using this mulch my soil is so loose, the few weeds that come through the newspaper pull out with no effort. In areas where there is no mulch, weeds break off at soil level. There are lots of worms where I never saw worms before.

This is what works for me so far, but I am not opposed to trying other ways to improve the soil. It has been through trial and error and by reading posts here and putting many of strawchicago's experiments into practice.

I have not tried using gypsum or wood chips in the planting hole. I may decide to do that with some roses I need to plant. I am ashamed to confess I do not know the pH of my soil, but plan to test it using straw's red cabbage method.
strawchicago z5 thanked flowersaremusic z5 Eastern WA
lavenderlacezone8
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Thanks Flowers and Straw for reviving this useful thread. This is the first time that I've seen it! Tons of great info and pictures, wow!
strawchicago z5 thanked lavenderlacezone8
flowersaremusic z5 Eastern WA
6 years ago
Lavender, I am not setting myself up as any kind of expert. I think you know me better than that from other threads. These are just the things that have proven successful for me. I am constantly learning, as we all are. Straw suggested I share what works in my type of soil - hard, rocky, pale clay, sticky when wet. I wish I had known these things years ago. I agree, this thread is chock full of very useful information.
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lavenderlacezone8
6 years ago
Flowers, I appreciate all of the info! I posted the same thing for my sandy soil and I've got tons to learn. I'm just reporting the news here, not doing anything particularly special with them like Straw.

But I have found that some roses just appreciate our hospitality more than others and make life easier!
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flowersaremusic z5 Eastern WA
6 years ago
This is something I have wondered about for some time, but since it has never been addressed here, that I can find, maybe it isn't important.....

Why do we need to know the soil composition if we plant in holes filled with compost, amendments and very little native soil? Wouldn't it be more important to test what we fill the hole with? Especially for those of us who dig huge holes?

The answer is probably very obvious, but not to me. I wish I could think more scientifically, but I really have to labor over numbers, percentages and such.
strawchicago z5 thanked flowersaremusic z5 Eastern WA
strawchicago z5
Original Author
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
floweraremusic: I like what you wrote: "Lavender, I am not setting myself up as any kind of expert. I think you know me better than that from other threads. These are just the things that have proven successful for me. I am constantly learning, as we all are." AGREE 100%, I'm NOT an expert even in my garden, I learn new things every year.

Agree that knowing our amendments matter more than our soil composition. Roses are vigorous in my native alkaline clay, but I killed a few through amendments: be it pH 9 cow-manure, or pH 9 sand (with nasty chemical quick lime).

Kelly in zone 4 (MN) e-mailed me recently to confirm my hunch that STINKY ORGANICS attract pests .. she informed of thrips on roses that she fed stinky fish. I became suspicious of STINKY alfalfa meal in 2012, when I was pouring alfalfa meal into the planting hole (per Roses Unlimited tip that doesn't apply to heavy clay) .. a dog from far-away, broke away from its owner, and rush to dig up that hole, while I was ready to plant Bridal Pink rose. Later on, that dog came back (from 2 houses FAR AWAY) to dig up that hole.

Thrips is in the FLIES family, so anything stinky will attract thrips. The 2 years that I used stinky & dusty alfalfa meal, I had thrips. Other years that I used horse manure: no thrips .. and there's zero flies at the HUGE horse manure pile at the stable.

Biggest thrips attraction is Dr. Earth fertilizer, with stinky fish, alfalfa meal, kelp. Roses that have no thrips for 5 years became thrips-fest. However, no thrips last year with the zero-odor Standlee alfalfa pellets. No thrips for years with DRY alfalfa-hay.

It's the odor & moisture that attract thrips (fly-family) or midges (fly-gnat).

Husband complained when I store dusty & stinky alfalfa meal in the garage, but zero complaints about odor with alfalfa hay or Standlee alfalfa pellets (faint grassy scent). The problem with alfalfa meal: it forms a moist & stinky layer on top, fantastic for pests to hatch, be it midge or thrips larvae. And the smell attract dogs from far away, as well as flies/midge/thrips.

Bluegirl from Texas e-mailed me recently to confirm my hunch that STINKY alfalfa meal attracts thrips. She used the entire BIG sack of alfalfa meal (50 lbs) on her roses and have the worst thrips infestation this year.

Google what attracts flies the most, you'll see DONUTS as the #1 bait for flies, besides stinky rotten meat. Midge is also in the flies/gnats family, and midge is attracted to moisture & stinky organics. Thank God for zero thrips & zero midge this year, I mulch my roses with grass-clippings .. it's quite dry under the sun so pests can't hatch.

No Midge for the past 30 years of growing roses either, except for one instance which I topped 2 roses with Schultz potting soil (only 1 month of midge on those 2 roses .. then I top with native clay & plus food the area to kill them). Midge doesn't like pine-bark mulch, my heavy clay, nor horse manure, nor grass-clippings as mulch.

But a rosarian from sandy Ohio had the worst-midge infestation, he blamed it on horse manure .. yes, if his horse manure bedding is different from mine. My horse manure has nematodes that eat the flies-larvae, never see flies in that GIANT heap of horse manure at the stable. Didn't realize that until the bucket of horse manure was filled with rain-water, and I saw nematodes swimming in there. They were much bigger than Mosquito larvae and pinkish red. They are not baby-earthworms either (have plenty here in alkaline clay).
flowersaremusic z5 Eastern WA
6 years ago
Straw, you are most humble and always preface by saying it is an experiment, or it works for you, or something to that effect. I've never read you telling anyone what to do. And, I appreciate your open mind to listen to everyone else's trials and experiments.

You have set my mind at ease about midge. If they don't like pine bark mulch or heavy clay, maybe my roses are safe. I want to try grass clippings - so cheap and easy. I will refer back to your post on that to be sure it is ok for here. I am doing the red cabbage pH test tonight, so that will help decide.

Rose Tone and Plant Tone are stinky, so I will cover them with compost to cut down on odor. I do NOT want midge!
strawchicago z5 thanked flowersaremusic z5 Eastern WA
Kelly Tregaskis Collova
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
I'm glad to hear that mulching wi the grass clippings is beneficial; I rant out of room in my compost bin so have been using it as mulch. It helps keeps the weeds away too! Maybe it will help with thrip problem, which never really bothered my garden before.
strawchicago z5 thanked Kelly Tregaskis Collova
strawchicago z5
Original Author
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Forget to mention my failed experiment with blackstrap molasses: That attract rose-slugs BIG TIME, along with thrips. It wasn't worth the deeping of roses' colors. Donuts attract flies, (rose-slugs are sawfly-larvae), sugarly molasses is stinky & sweet.

University of Connecticut documented the release of nitrogen in grass-clippings is WITHIN 1 MONTH. Fifteen years ago I made the mistake of "composting" my grass clippings: I dumped tons of them onto my tomato-garden in late fall. Lots of melt snow, plus spring rain convert that into a stinky & wet sewage swamp. In June I planted tomato and they got stunt by Verticullum Wilt, or fungal infection from "wet & acidic" feet. I got only one-tenth of normal yield that year.

I no longer compost grass-clippings NPK 4-1-2, I use them when they FRESH & fluffy as mulch, since the release of nitrogen is within 1 month. The most fertile soil is actually UNDER the compost pile. Nitrogen mobility is a 10, it moves with water, potassium mobility is a 3, and phosphorus mobility is a 1 (it hardy moves) .. so folks who use compost end up with exceedingly high phosphorus, and all the nitrogen is lost to below the compost pile.
Kelly Tregaskis Collova
6 years ago
Good to know. I have always had problems with rose slugs here. Any idea what keeps those away?

Can you see the holes??
strawchicago z5 thanked Kelly Tregaskis Collova
strawchicago z5
Original Author
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Hi Kelly: high nitrogen fertilizer is known to attract pests: aphids and rose-slugs. Those soft-body-pests like the soft-growth of shoots, and high-nitrogen fertilizer pump out tender shoots. Alkaline-tap water zaps out potassium (necessary for tough & strong stems), and the stems get thinner & softer, thus attract pests.

Here are the factors (from most to least) that attract rose-slugs based on my garden of poor-drainage clay:
1. Molasses & any sugar. Rose slugs are saw-fly larvae.
2) High-nitrogen fertilizer which prompts soft tissue.

3) Alkaline-tap water which zaps out potassium (thus thin & weak cell walls).

4) Poor drainage-clay, which make leaves softer for pest invasion.

Water-logged clay also create holes in leaves, similar to rose slugs' damage. During week-long rain, I saw holes in the leaves of my roses right next to the rain-spout (dumping 32-gallons of water per 10 minutes).

Could not find any rose-slugs, so I went to my neighbor .. the first thing she said was "I GOT HOLES IN THE LEAVES of my Knock-outs". I told her it's from too much rain & poor drainage. Later on, I dug up those roses, and made the holes bigger 3' x 3', plus worked in pine-bark to fasten drainage. No more holes, even in week-long rain.
Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
6 years ago
Just thought I'd post the results I had in one garden bed that's clay-loam. Last year I had amended this bed with home-made compost. Everything did well last year as first year plantings. This year they suffered from too little light. (I just put the roses there to get them through the winter and hoping they might like the eastern exposure. Heathcliff, Sugar Moon and Falstaff like sun in my neck of the woods, it seems. I'll probably be moving the viking Queen next Spring as she's a fraction of the size of her sister in full sun, and hasn't bloomed since Spring while her sister would be non-stop if not for the midge.)

Anyway, the soil was very dry even with rain. I thought the heavy leaf layer prevented water. I stuffed the empty holes with alfalfa hay, compost and leaf mold until I decided what to plant. I also put the alfalfa under the leaves in the rest of the bed and gave it additional compost. Wow, when I went to plant Lavender Lassie and two hydrangeas, all the soil was so soft and fluffy and moist, even though we had less rain that earlier. I'm now prepping my holes in advance of next Spring and filling them with the same and covering the entire bed with alfalfa hay, etc. The new plantings have taken off even in the reduced light of late summer. I repeated this in another new bed and Mme Alfred Carriere and Awakening seem to love it even in their NE exposure. (Of course, they could just be responding to being in the ground vs. in pots. : ) ) Lesson learned. : )

I'm also trying gypsum on some new beds I'm prepping since they're on an incline. I'll report back.
Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
6 years ago
Don't know why this wasn't bumped.
Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
6 years ago
WoW!!! Everything I've planted with the alfalfa hay has really put on growth, basals, leaves and buds. This is much better than when I planted out my pot pets last year. These results make me think about using alfalfa tea next Spring. I'm even putting some hay in the pots I'm overwintering.
lavenderlacezone8
6 years ago
Yeah VV!

My alfalfa-fed composted manure was super here too. A lot of manure compost doesn't have any alfalfa at all in it so I think that's what makes the difference when people report different results.
strawchicago z5 thanked lavenderlacezone8
strawchicago z5
Original Author
4 years ago
bump up for reference
flowersaremusic z5 Eastern WA
4 years ago
Isn't it Nippstress who uses alfalfa hay exclusively on her many, many roses? I hope she will see this and correct me if I'm wrong.

Cynthia, you say it much better than I could, so I hope you will comment.
CottageGardenRoses-paz6
3 years ago
Bump bump.

Strawchicago, do you use the epsoma organic gypsum or the fast acting one for lawns? And the potash? I see a lot of brand-less bags for sale? Also do you put pea gravel and red lava on top around the roses like mulch or in the hole?

I have New Dawn planted (a band) next to an arbor in heavy clay and want to improve the soil around her, I’m close to Pittsburgh and rain can be really bad. In 2 weeks I might give her organic liquid fertilizer and later on she will get alfalfa.
strawchicago z5 thanked CottageGardenRoses-paz6
strawchicago z5
Original Author
3 years ago
Chantal Galda: Gypsum is acidic and will cause rust on roses if used in acidic rain. We have lots of rain so I don't use sulfate of potash (21% sulfur or acid). I only use sulfate of potash in hot & dry summer for my pH 9 alkaline-tap-water. Rain here is acidic at pH 4.5 I put 2 scoops of pea gravel and 4 red lava AT BOTTOM OF PLANTING hole to neutralize excess acidic rain. Pea gravel and red lava rock on top HARDENS THE SOIL and prevents water from soaking in. These alkaline minerals also help roses to cope with heat (it's 92 F here today). To improve soil in heavy clay, if it's a poor drainage & soaking wet spot, then gypsum is used to break up clay ( must be done 1 month in advance since gypsum can kill rose due to its fast release of acid). It's safer to mix in small chips of pine-bark or wood-chips to help with faster drainage. If it's DRY HEAVY clay, then peatmoss help to lighten up heavy clay and to increase moisture. . I now post in Facebook Fragrant Rose Lovers group as Claude Martin. Feel free to join that group with 1,600 international members, and any questions you ask benefit others too. I don't visit Houzz much, since Facebook is faster to load pictures.