I wonder if they can test soil and see how bad it is.

I know. It is a quick kill and a pretty thorough kill. I don't know if anything has developed a resistance to it. It is very popular in no-till farming but, as stockergal pointed out, everyone in the agricultural industry knows it is very strong stuff and many enlightened farmers and ranchers gave up its use long ago in favor of more environmentally kind herbicides. To me, to use that specific herbicide from a crop dusting plane seems highly irresponsible if there is anyone nearby that is growing anything at all, and your experience highlights why I feel that way. It might be one thing if the guy who had it sprayed on his place was way, way, way out in the middle of nowhere and had thousands of acres and used it carefully and on a day when there was absolutely no wind (though it still could volatize and travel as a gas). To cropdust it from the air with other folks nearby growing things and a moderately strong breeze blowing was just asking for trouble. The applicator and his customer should have know they were going to poison many people's plants, as we now know that they did. The paraquat they sprayed that is causing the defoliation of the trees is performing exactly as it should because it is used as a defoliant. So, no one can fault the product for doing what it supposed to do. They should blame the applicator for the manner in which it was applied.

Of course the pilot/applicator promised to make it right. He sees a big bunch of lawsuits headed his way if he or his insurance company do not make it right. He's not stupid. He knows exactly how serious the damage is and he knows people likely will come after him in court if he doesn't adequately compensate for that damage. However, the financial compensation he offers may be lacking. One person's idea of making it right will not be the same as another's. I hope he truly compensates for the damage done and doesn't just offer a stupid token amount that is totally inadequate. And, you know, I don't know this person and don't want to assume anything about him. He could be a fine, upright, upstanding person (and probably is) and may be completely mortified that this occurred and sincerely does want to make it right. Let's hope that's the case.

I assume someone can test the soil for it. I'm not sure who. Maybe the Texas Plant and Soil lab at Edinburg. Here's a link to them:

Texas Plant and Soil Lab in Edinburgh, TX

They are highly skilled there and highly respected and do testing for places from all around the world because of their great reputation. This sort of testing would be expensive (the cropdusting pilot/company/applicator ought to pay for it, but I wouldn't be surprised if they refuse to do so without a lawsuit), but if you were going to do the testing, you'd want the best service available from the best people in the field, and they are the best. If they cannot test for paraquat, they can tell you who can, or they can tell you if drift is enough to warrant soil testing.

According to Cornell University, the residual half-life of paraquat in the soil can vary from 16 months to 13 years, and it can accumulate in potatoes, of all things. Much depends on the type of soil. I am, however, assuming that they are talking about soil where the paraquat was deliberately sprayed on the plot tested and I am assuming it was sprayed at the rate recommended by the manufacturer. I'm not sure what sort of soil residual half-life you would get from accidental drift. The data referenced by Cornell can be found in this document:

Cornell: Paraquat

Thanks Dawn. Trying to do research with little man and on a phone is challenging. I need to get to the library where I can print.

Compensation for time and seeds is great but how are they going to compensate for the losses of the future and the dreams.

I don't have much moral support here. My son thinks I am beyond dramatic which is why I need info in print to show him this is really bad news. And possibly worse than even I realize. I have lost 12 or so tomato plants and more on their way out. Most greens are coming back but are they safe to eat. And all my roots and fruits. Well I have my work cut out for me.

You're welcome. I know your internet access is very limited there, so I try to find things for you and link them here so you can read them and/or print them when you are at the library.

They cannot compensate you for the losses of your future and dreams. That's the whole problem. How can you be an organic, or even mostly organic, market grower if you're surrounded by people who think nothing of cropdusting a defoliant, quick-kill, total-kill herbicide from the air? What happened to you once already this season could happen again and again. I don't know how you can market garden in these conditions. Maybe it won't happen again. Maybe it happens tomorrow. That's the trouble. You have no control over what other people do, and in your specific farming region, the heavy use of herbides combined with the fact that a significant portion of it seems to be applied by crop dusters is very troubling specifically because it can wipe out your market garden overnight.

Your son needs to understand that your plants have been poisoned by a toxic chemical that is wiping out your plants, and your market garden profits, and he needs to be more supportive. Partly it is his youth, I suspect. He hasn't been around gardening and chemical drift long enough to understand what a serious issue it is, or he isn't taking it seriously. If he doesn't understand how dangerous paraquat is, he needs to read up on the problems suffered by Vietnam veterans who were exposed to it when the US military used Agent Orange as a defoliant. Some veterans suffered horrible, prolonged, lifelong side-effects, to the point that eventually (after a long legal battle) the US government paid them compensation for the Agent Orange side effects. I suspect that whatever compensation was received was totally inadequate compared to the affected veterans (and their families') pain, illnesses and suffering, but at least they got some compensation. While the main risk is to people who inhale the paraquat, I wouldn't want to eat anything that had been sprayed with it, but you know how I am about chemical stuff. That is why I try to grow as organically as possible and why I prefer to purchase organic produce whenever possible. I won't even, ever or under any conditions, purchase apples or apple products that are not organic. They are sprayed with too many chemicals, including paraquat, by the way. While organic produce is expensive to purchase, I'll cut back spending elsewhere to be able to afford organic produce.

The sad fact is that most non-organic produce in the stores is sprayed heavily with chemicals while it is being produced, and when we grow our own, we can avoid almost all of that. If people researched how many different chemicals are sprayed on some crops, I think they'd be appalled. Most people have no clue what residues may be on or in the foods they purchase. If a gardener is strictly organic and never uses anything not organic. they can largely avoid the worst of the chemicals. However, some organic products, like rotenone, are worse (in my mind) than some non-organic things like chlorothalonil (Daconil), so I totally avoid using some organic things like rotenone and sabadilla, but I will use Daconil on tomato plants when disease pressure is high in a wet year. I've used it 2 or 3 times this year, but doubt I'll spray it again. Three times is about the limit for me. Every person has to decide what is right for them, and if your son isn't concerned about the chemical drift that hit your plants, then he just isn't "there" yet, and I probably wasn't either when I was his age.

I don't know if your greens are safe to eat and I haven't been able to find anything on line that says they are. The issue is that normally this herbicide is a total kill herbicide, so greens sprayed directly with it would die and nothing would survive to be eaten. Since yours "only" got drift damage and not a direct, full spray, which allowed them to survive, they might be safe to eat, but it is hard to find anything online that explicitly states that. This probably is a question to ask your ag extension agent or the applicator himself. Or, Google and read the paraquat label. Again, though, since it is intended as a total kill herbicide, the label may not even address the issue of drift onto edible plants.

I feel so bad for you, but thank goodness you weren't there at the time to be directly exposed while it was in the air. It makes me sad and angry and frustrated. ((Hugs)) Maybe there is a class action lawsuit against paraquat.

Kim, I am SO SO sorry. Makes me want to cry. I agree with everyone else; sounds like paraquat deserves a class-action lawsuit, and I'm not a sue-happy person at all, but something so devastating needs to be addressed/stopped. My heart breaks for you. Sounds like you've put in some hard work, and now have a lot more to do because of someone's negligence. Sometimes it doesn't seem like "sorry" cuts it. I hope the man does "make it right", but how do you really make it "right" at this point?

I believe this herbicide has been in use since the early 1960s. What happened to Kim, while incredibly unfortunate and frustrating, is not specifically the fault of the herbicide itself or its manufacturer, so let's be fair to the company, even if we personally wish such strong herbicides were not widely used. The sad fact is that they are. There are people, I am sure, who use this herbicide and others like it in a very responsible manner so as to achieve their own goals but not to harm other parties. The fault lies in the hands of the operator/applicator who was using it and that's where the legal liability lies. If this particular herbicide and its manufacturer survived all the Agent Orange lawsuits and such, I imagine they can handle whatever trouble arises from herbicide drift.

Usually when this sort of herbicide drift occurs over such a very wide area, somebody who was using it probably failed to follow all the instructions exactly. We don't know which instruction they failed to follow, but if a herbicide is properly applied following all known, listed precautions, it shouldn't drift for at least 6 miles. Even with fairly volatile herbicides of the type homeowners, farmers, and ranchers use here in my neighborhood, about the farthest drift a person here ever will see is about 0.5 to 1.0 mile. Drift that came 6 miles to hit Kim is unimaginable here. Granted, we are in gentle rolling hills in the Red River Valley and Kim is on flatter land, so maybe the lay of the land helps us out a bit here or maybe stuff drifts further there because of how flat her area is overall.

The other day I watched someone applying a herbicide from a sprayer pulled behind a small tractor across the road from my garden. At times, he probably was barely 100' from my garden, from the east, and the wind was from the east. I feared the worst because usually in this circumstance I lose tomato plants. So far, I haven't found damage on any of them. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Most years I get minor damage---a dozen or so plants---so I just plant enough to allow for losing that many. Sometimes, though, the drift damage is not very obvious for a week or so, and then all of a sudden it is real obvious. Sometimes it is such subtle damage that I wonder for a couple of days if I am seeing drift or if I am seeing some viral disease popping up. I have 2 or 3 more days of plant observation before I can safely conclude my plants weren't hit by drift this time. I've never had the widespread damage that Kim is dealing with now.

It is incredibly hard to be a market gardener in the first place and to successfully make a living at it because, well, y'all know why....hail, thunderstorms, tornadoes, pests, our frequent droughts, diseases, etc. To try to do it when people around you are heavy users of certain herbicides is going to make it very difficult, and I do not want for Kim to lose her dream. I just don't know how the dream survives in these circumstances. Maybe if a person had a big old barn and could put in a hydroponics system, but that would be very costly and in West TX, the building likely would need air conditioning to keep the building from overheating, so the cost becomes astronomical and completely beyond the reach of the average person.

I am sure I had no clue when I was 22 about chemicals and their effect on our Health. Lol

Sad but he is surrounded everyday by pro chemical people. They do not recognize the high rates of disease especially cancer here may be directly linked. He did put 2 and 2 together when I mentioned the link to Parkinson since one of local cotton farmers was recently diagnosed.

I got a call from my friend and she is helping us free of charge and got a number to call and file complaint. The TDA does all the work. They will call me back later. I am glad I have y'all to talk to.

Thank you. Soooooomuch. Or like Ryder says. Thank you too much

Exactly. When I was 22 I might not even have known what a herbicide was. I don't remember anyone who gardened around us even using them, and we didn't. I probably was in my mid-20s before I even heard herbicides being discussed on a gardening radio show (Kim, it was Neil Sperry, of course, and then later on I also began listening to Howard Garrett's weekend radio show as well) and realized you could kill weeds with a chemical. We just always hoed them out! What a revelation it was to me that a person could use chemicals instead of weeding. Still, we didn't use them. I don't know if my dad, in all his 85 years, ever used a single herbicide at all, so I guess that rubbed off on me.

Being surrounded every day by pro-chemical people means that they likely have had some influence on his thinking, but as he considers what he eats, what you eat (and your multiple chemical sensitivity) and, especially, what Ryder eats, I think he will come around to the idea that food treated minimally with chemicals (whether organic or synthetic) are preferable to those treated heavily with chemicals. Just give him time, and in the meantime, all of us here ARE your support system. We're here for you, always and forever, day or night.

I'm so thrilled that your friend is going to help you Pro Bono. That is just awesome! I am glad the TDA does all the work, but you and your friend and everyone else involved need to be very careful and watch their moves carefully. In many states, the department of agriculture favors the big commercial producers over the backyard and small market gardeners. They also tend to, at times, be more pro-chemical than not because guess who gives lots of grants to the state universities to study those chemicals and declare them safe? Yep, the big ag companies. I'm not saying TDA will not be totally impartial and fair. I'm just saying that there is an unholy relationship in some states between the state ag departments, the ag extension service and the chemical companies, so the little guys, like all of us, need to keep in mind that these folks are not necessarily going to be impartial. I hope TDA is not that way, but I know how the world tends to work, so you just have to watch and be aware and not settle for anything less than true fairness.

Exactly my thinking Dawn. Although they will investigate ultimately we have to be on our toes to make sure we get fair and accurate treatment. Just like with Dr's. They aren't always in it for money but they aren't all in it for love either. I have never met an ag person who was not 100 percent pro chemical. They honestly believe there is no other way.

My father was a chemist. Pesticides never worried him. But his father the farmer died of leukemia and I always wondered deep down if pesticides and fertilizers could have had anything to do with it. That was in the days of DDT. I detested the smell of malathion that dad used on bag worms and really became organic minded in grade school because of it. My dad is the smartest man I know, but we will never agree on chemicals.

I agree there are so many people who don't believe there is a connection between illness and chemicals. I am one who believes there is. One of my dearest friends a janitor spent her life using tons of cleaning supplies not in well ventilated areas and has suffered cancers and other horrible illnesses. I believe there is a connection. She never did.

My little man is put out with me because I won't let him raid the peach and apricot trees for snacks.

The real place in question is 1 mile away. Another suspect place is a half mile away.

I did not even realize they sprayed these particular farms.

I am so shocked by your loss and your neighbors losses as well. This is really inexcusable in this day and age.

When I moved back to the plains country nine years ago, gardening was one of my top priorities, but I was very concerned about herbicide drift which was a huge issue when I gardened here in the 70s and 80s, So far, I've had no problems. There has been a big improvement in the quality of the application equipment, phase out of herbicides that later become volatile and drift, and greater appreciation of the damage herbicide drift causes. Just before I left here in the 1980s, I was on a jury that awarded significant damages to cotton farmers harmed by 24D drift. I think those kind of things have changed the way people do things.

This doesn't really help you, But I urge you and your neighbors to pursue legal remedies to the max. The one time I had massive damage in the late 70s from airplane applied over spray of Atrazine. I treated it like a bad hail-some things had to be replanted; some things had to be abandoned for the year and replaced by seasonally appropriate succession crops; many things responded well to removal of damaged leaves and fruit, water and fertilization. While it looked like a desert in June, I still had an ample harvest in the late summer and fall.

Again I feel so bad about what happened. Best wishes

Kim, Honestly, if it is not an organic farm, they are spraying, and I don't know of many organic farms. Most commercial farms do spray and if they are organic and don't spray, the really publicize that fact. Sometimes they put up "organic--no spray zone" signs so that county or city road crews won't spray chemicals along the part of the roadside or whatever. If you're certified organic, something as simple as that can cost you your organic certification, even though you aren't even the person who sprays it.

I wonder how much it would (or wouldn't) help to plant a windbreak of trees all around the garden. Like, cedars or something equivalent that grows well there. If you had something dense that was either a tall evergreen shrub (something with glossy leaves like hollies that might resist herbicides somewhat) or tree and they were densely planted, maybe in a double row, then that windbreak might stop most herbicide drift coming from the ground level. They probably wouldn't stop herbicide drift coming in higher from crop dusting, but every little bit would help.

I bet your little man is one very frustrated little boy right now, and I don't blame him. It must be torture for him to see that fruit and not be able to eat it. I hope the fruit trees pull through and survive. This just keeps getting worse and worse, and it need not have happened at all if somebody would have been more careful.

I do think that folks around us use a lot less chemicals than they used to, and most are pretty careful, but it only takes one careless act to cause someone else a lot of grief.

Are you just in a holding pattern until the TDA tells y'all whether your food should be fit to harvest and eat (if it survives)?

Yes. I will be speaking with toxicologist tomorrow. Tda is sending someone out to all the people who have filed complaints. Rumor is the farmers are scared spitless. Also another rumor is its 24d. I guess they will see tomorrow.

Which farmers are scared spitless? The ones who did the spraying in question or the ones who have damage?

Herbicide drift from 2-4-d probably is not much better than herbicide damage from paraquat, and herbcide damage from 2-4-d is often what I have here because lots of people (for example, ranchers.) use 2, 4, d poducts to control broad-leaf weeds in their pastures or lawns. Herbicides containing 2, 4 d are numerous and are available on store shelves wherever gardening and farming products are sold, including your friendly neighborhood big box stores. Damage from 2, 4, d drift is widespread and widely studied. Most people who want to kill broadleaf weeds in lawns will walk into a store and buy a product containing 2, 4 d in the blink of an eye.

In some cases, the drift from 2, 4, d has wiped out entire industries. Ever hear of the Wisonsin grape industry? Nope, well you likely never will hear of it because the use of 2, 4 d by other ag interests for other crops decimated the Wisconsin grape industry. That's just one example. When people use a weed-and-feed product to control broadleaf weeds in their lawns, they likely are using something that contains 2, 4 d and they can be using it right along their property line without their neighbor having any idea until drift occurs (if it occurs). The damage from 2, 4, d is often referred to as phenoxy damage and you can Google 'phenoxy herbicide damage images' when you're at the library and see tons of photos of this sort of drift damage.

Often, here on HOUZZ/GardenWeb, we will have someone post photos of what shortly will be diagnosed as phenoxy herbicide damage or 2, 4 d damage. It might be damage to their veggies, or their flowers or their herbs. They often are baffled and insist they never used a herbicide. Sometimes, as it turns out, they are technically correct and they, themselves, did not use a herbicide in their garden or flower beds, but their spouse or lawn service company used a 2, 4 d weed-and-feed on their lawn and the drift got their veggie, herb or flower plants. You wouldn't believe how often I've seen posts like this in the 11 years I've been active on GW, often at the Veggie or Tomato forum, but sometimes right here on the OK forum as well. A lot of husbands get into trouble with their wives by using a lawn-type weed and feed too close to flower beds herb beds and veggie gardens and inadventently damaging or killing them.

Products containing 2, 4 d as an active ingredient come in both amine and ester formulations and the formulation chosen can result in more drift or less drift. Ester formulations are more effective but also can cause drift damage much more easily. Because they are more effective, I feel like these are the ones most people in the ag industry would prefer to choose. Who can blame them? They want the most effective bang for their buck. However, more responsible people who are conscious of the dangers of drift might choose instead to use an amine formulation which would be slightly less effective on the weeds but also would be less likely to cause drift damage. I know some ranchers who chose amine formulations to keep peace in the family because they know they are in trouble if their herbicide drifts and kills their spouse's garden, for example.

One of my favorite organic gardening authors, Barbara Pleasant, wrote about 2, 4 d for Mother Earth News a few years back. I'll find her article and link it.

MEN Nature & Environment: 2, 4 D

When I get 2, 4 d drift damage on my garden plants it most often kills tomato plants, but most other plants, including beans and catnip that are damaged by it sometimes show less significant damage and I prune away the damage and leave the plants in the garden. Even when a tomato plant has only the lightest damage, at least by appearance, the plant never really grows well or produces well even if it seems to have survived the drift, and often just slowly declines and dies within weeks, as opposed to the plants that had heavier damage and died in mere days.

In our early years here, I got gyphosate damage more often because products containing it are widely used along pasture fencelines here. It is cheaper for people with large property to spray the fencelines to keep the growth of plants down than it is to pay someone with a string trimmer to work along the fencelines. In more recent years, I don't see that nearly as much but I see a lot more 2, 4 d damage from pasture weedkillers. One way I have been able to protect the front veggie garden is to plant my corn all along the east and south fencelines. The corn isn't bothered by the 2, 4 d and often a wide band of corn protects plants that sit on the other side. However, I don't generally plant corn in those areas because I usually plant corn out back in the back garden where it will have a lot more space. If you grow corn, you could put your corn planting along the edge of the property where drift is most likely to come from, but it still likely won't protect plants from herbicides sprayed by crop dusters since they'll be drifting from a higher altitude and are more likely to drift over the corn and hit the rest of your plants anyway.

All of The farmers are nervous that have ever sprayed.

It couldn't be 24d. My corn is got it too. This has to be a complete defoliant.

I am nervous about today. I want them to hear me and not an emotional woman lol.

Thanks again y'all for listening to me whine. Noone else in my life understands except you all. Some people try but most really have no idea what my food and friendship garden mean to me. And sharing this passion with

like hearted people

Is the best.

I'd be nervous too, but the guy who sprayed it should be even more nervous! Actions have consequences and y'all are counting on TDA to ensure these actions that damaged other folks' plants do indeed have consequences.

It still could have a 2, 4 d component because sometimes people mix together more than one product and apply them together. Keep that in mind.

Testing could tell y'all what it was for sure, but testing is very expensive---hundreds of dollars per test, and one test usually would be plant parts from just one plant.

I know that you can do this! You are a professional woman launching a new career as a market gardener. You've been married and raised a child, and am helping raise a grandchild. This incident, as upsetting as it is right now, is nothing compared to all the challenges you've faced in the past.

Just stay calm and state your case. If you are nervous about what to say, jot down your key talking points on a piece of paper and hold them in your hand. Start out by telling them that you were nervous and wrote down the key points you wanted to make, and then state your points. They'll understand that this is a very emotional issue for the people whose plants have been victimized in this incident, and I believe they'll appreciate that you prepared for this meeting by jotting down key points instead of walking into the meeting as a hysterical, emotional wreck. Be sure you tell them that this IS your livelihood and if this destroys your garden this summer, it destroys your income. Ask them, calmly, how you can pay your bills when you have no produce to take to market each week to sell. (Watch them squirm!) They need to know this is your business and that you are suffering a severe economic impact when you cannot go to market, especially in your very first year when you are just beginning to build a reputation for yourself, your business and your produce.

Finally, you are likely to achieve the best results if you approach this in a collaborative manner both with TDA and with the person who caused this, i.e. "how can we work together to resolve this so that those of us with damage can move on, recover and carry on with our business and our lives as quickly as possible?" instead of being adversarial and wanting to know how they are going to fix the problem they created or how TDA is going to resolve this. You'll achieve more with a team spirit, just like you did when your son was young and you had PTA stuff, team sports, etc. Whatever you do, don't let it degenerate into an Us Vs. Them battle, because once something becomes personalized in that way, some parties stop being cooperative.

I came back to add you can do this, you can do this, you can do this, and I know that you will!!!

You tell those people you're emotional because you can make more money from chemical free produce. Tell them you're emotional because your grandson deserves to eat untainted fruit after helping grow it. Tell them you're emotional because you've put SOOO much work into this garden. I'm emotional just thinking about it. I know how you feel. I cry when I'm mad, which only makes me madder because then I'm not taken seriously. We're behind you on this.

I cry when I am mad too and then, if anyone starts patronizing me because I'm crying, I get madder....and cry more. I guess it is the curse of being female?

It is the curse of being female.

I am writing stuff down so I can ask the right questions and write down the answers too.

TDA came yesterday and I talked to toxicologist in Austin. What a long day. Mr. Boston was here 3 hours. ..

His job is simply to determine what who and how. Then I use that info to take to the responsible party and request compensation for loss. That is the hard part for me. I am not sure about all this.

I have to write in every crop and estimate loss of harvest for my personal use and market and put a price to it. My friend thinks I can just replace the tomato plants that were setting fruit but I don't believe I can at this point in the season.

I have lost 14 tomato plants so far , all my greens, herbs, possibly trees, numerous brassicas, all my broccoli raab.

The rest of the crops I want to get tested to see if they are safe to eat. The lab in Edinburgh led me to a lab which led me to a lab in Oregon that tests food for paraquat. $300.00 per sample so I won't be getting many done. Maybe 1 root and 1 fruit. I won't be paying for it but I want to choose the lab. ( ;

It's all disheartening to say the least.

The ag man loved the garden and what we do here but kept getting lost as to where and what everything is. I told him it's OK it drives my son nuts too , why can't you just plant like normal people....

It's Dawns fault she encourages me to plant like nature intended all mixed up. Peppers in onions lettuce and carrots between the tomatoes. Lol. I love it and the ag man was impressed once he found out there is reason not just weirdness.

So lots of cleanup this weekend and work to be done and my son is taking little man to Denton. So I can just get r dun

Have you taken a lot of pictures? I would make a map of the garden (if you haven't already) and then photograph every part of it before you clean it up. It will give you something to reference when trying to determine value. And don't undervalue your time either. You grew some things from seed, didn't you? Even if you replace tomato plants with store bought, it wouldn't come near the value of the originals.

What have they told you about toxicity? Is it safe for you to be out there clearing it?

The specialists insinuate it's fine to be in the garden. But they won't say for sure. I still wear long sleeves and gloves.

The toxicologist said since I ate carrots and onions last week and nothing bad happened it's probably OK. And my headaches are probably just from stress.

Amy, The map is a great idea!

Kim, Just take your time and make your lists and estimate what you potentially could have harvested and sold. Be sure to include the cost of replacement fruit trees, not just the fruit. And, for yourself and your family, estimate the cost of buying replacement produce for y'all to eat since you could have eaten from an undamaged garden all summer long.

Replanting tomato plants might work if the summertime temperatures cooperate, but I'm betting it is too late for you to get a marketable crop for the summer. If you replant now, the new, fresh plants would struggle to set fruit until the autumn cooldown begins. They will set fruit then if you can keep them alive and healthy, which can be challenging in high heat. The hard part will be to get the fruit to mature before frost and freezing weather come calling. Fall tomatoes are a crap shoot. Some years you get a huge harvest (usually because the first freeze is really late) and other years you don't get much of anything, so I wouldn't consider the planting of fresh, new tomato plants to be a replacement for summer tomatoes. They aren't. They are just a succession planting for fall at this point.

If you aren't comfortable asserting yourself and making a case with the applicator yourself, maybe your attorney friend will work with you and possibly could be there that day to speak for you/with you. Otherwise, just rehearse your presentation over and over until you feel comfortable. Remember, you are not a hysterical female. You are a business owner whose business and income has been adversely affected by negligent and careless practices by the herbicide applicator. This is where you get to turn your frustration into action. Again, I know you can do this.

Have you mentioned this on the market growers forum? Surely some of them have been hit by herbicide drift and can give you pointers on how they dealt with it. It is one thing for a personal backyard garden to be hit. It is aggravating, but no one is losing income from it. It is different for a commercial market garden to be hit. Don't let that applicator or the land owner who hired the applicator treat you like you're a typical backyard gardener. You aren't. You're a professional market grower. Remember that and you'll do well. This isn't personal, it is business, and a business owner deserves compensation in a case like this. Both the applicator of the herbicide and the professional farmer or rancher who hired him know that a business owner deserves compensation in a case like this, so hopefully they will work with you and not try to make this harder than it has to be.

Keep us posted and warn your two boys that Denton is gonna be hot! (Not that west Texas is cool in June, either.)

Dawn

I have been taking lots of pictures and will get them printed tomorrow when I go to Lubbock. I will take more in the morning before the sun comes up too. They turn out better.

Most of the garden is a mess since I haven't wanted to work in it with my little man.

#@%&$@#%&#!!! Frirst you get screwed by the crop duster and now by all the people supposedly helping you. SOMEONE should know whether or not you can eat that stuff! Mutter, mutter. Since nothing bad happened when you did eat it it must be OK??? This is science??? I suppose you didn't get the full effects of the sprayed field, but it sounds like they are all covering their own backsides. I am SOOOO sorry you are going through this!!!

This is all just so wrong. Here for you, Kim. Not much help other than emotional validation. Dad gum it all.

Amy, I suspect that sort of info is hard to get one's hands on because some of the chemicals (if it was paraquat and not 2-4-d, for example) are total kill products when used as directed, so it is doubtful they've done research to see if food is edible after being drifted. They'd rather pretend drift doesn't happen, even though everyone acknowledges that it does. To do research on how much drift is safe or not, toxic or not, etc. would mean acknowledging that their product drifts and kills. On a lot of the commercial herbicide labels, there are directions on what size flow to use when spraying and there are precautions about not spraying when wind is a certain wind speed. To me, that's partly just the manufacturers covering them own behinds because they know that some people will ignore labels and spray at the flow they choose and even when it is too windy. Applicators who ignore label directions and precautions are, in fact, breaking the law because it is unlawful to use these products in a manner different from the prescribed manner. I bet they don't get prosecuted though. I bet that never happens.

Kim, With many of these it is inhaling the fumes that is hazardous...like with Paraquat. So, I'd think you could work around them after the fact with drift but I'm no expert. Still, if I was doing it, I'd wear gloves, long pants, long sleeves, etc. and would change out of them and wash them as soon as I was finished working.

On a side note, have you ever watched migrant farm workers in the fields when they are harvesting? No one knows the risks of their work better than they do. You'll often see them not only wearing long sleeves and gloves, but also wrapping fabric around their arms, hands, necks, etc. to protect every possible inch of their skin from making contact with crops that have been sprayed with pesticides. I assume they use these extra protective methods based on handed-down folk knowledge of too many similar workers harmed by too much pesticide, herbicide and fungicide exposure. Whatever you decide to do with regard to your plants, just please protect your skin from exposure to it until you know more about exactly what chemical is confirmed and what its risks are.

In the 1980s, I worked with a guy who had to have his house treated for termites. He hired a reputable pesticide company with a good reputation. He trusted them to perform the job he hired them to do in an honorable manner, following the standard approved termite treatment program. It was a horrible mistake.

The company used (unknown to him and his family, obviously) a banned pesticide that previously has been allowed for termite control. His family paid a terrible price for all this. His dogs died. His family became very ill, though they all eventually recovered. Because they didn't know the company used the banned pesticide, they didn't understand at first what was happening to them, but they figured it out pretty fast---not what the chemical was at that point in time, but that something had gone horribly wrong while the house was being treated for termites.

He didn't have to sue the company to make them make it right because they knew exactly what they did and they knew how much trouble they could be in if he sued them. They paid vet and human medical bills. They removed all the plants and the top foot or two of soil and brought in supposedly clean soil and replanted the landscape. They replaced all the soft furnishings in the house, all the floors, carpet, hardwood, tile, curtains, blinds, etc. They may have replaced the drywall. It has been a long time and my memory is getting fuzzy. They replaced food, clothing, even the children's stuffed animals. Was he happy with the replacement effort? I think he felt somewhat vindicated by their admission they had done wrong and their effort to make it right, but I do think later on he felt like maybe he ought to have sued or at least reported them to a regulatory agency.

He just didn't feel well for a long time after this and I think not feeling well kinda led to him going along with their plan to fix what they had done. I was shocked he didn't want to report them to the TDA, but at the time, I think he was just focused on trying to get his family's life back to normal as quickly as possible. This is why some testing must be done---the applicator can say that they sprayed this or that and no one should take them at their word. I'm still shocked that the pesticide company confessed the truth to my friend, but at least they did do that much.

Y'all need to know for sure exactly what was sprayed. The 1980s were long ago and far away, and everyone was a lot more innocent back then. If a pesticide company did the same thing nowadays and used that banned chemical, they wouldn't get away with it. It would be all over social media in the blink of an eye and the entire world quickly would know about it.

Dawn

I will keep us protected as much as possible. Little man is hard to keep up with so next week i have to have a plan to get us out of here a such as possible. It makes me so sad that my vision of this summer being in the garden with him has been so altered but still soooo thankful we are together. We will have to go to state park more. They don't spray there lol.

Sunday I will begin tearing all the stuff out I have to and get ready to replant if I can.

The man from TDA was very encouraging. And his opinion about this chemical and the soil was there would be no residual. Tear it out and replant. If the test comes back good then I will be ready to keep going.

Yay! I knew there is not supposed to be a soil residual with the suspected chemical, but I also knew that you cannot know for certain until they get a soil test result back.

I was just looking at a picture of 8' cannas, with big wide leaves and I thought I wonder if they would do well to block drift? I've never grown them, and I understand they can be invasive. Wouldn't have helped Kim, but us urbinites might be able to use them. Is there a reason they would be a poor choice?

Herbicide has the potential to harm them as much as it hurts other things. Their new growth is fairly tender. I guess they could be used as sacrificial lambs. They might survive a single hit from 2, 4 D type weedkillers or glyphosate since it often takes multiple applications to kill them if you are trying to kill them on purpose. There are lots of things that are tall and dense and might form a blocking hedge, but there's also the issue of timing. Would whatever is planted be up and tall enough before everyone around Kim starts spraying in Spring? Some no-till folks spray fairly early to knock out winter weeds before they plant their spring crops. It is unfortunate that no-till farming also cannot be no-spray farming.

It is hard for me to imagine a long-term solution that is a living windblock because of all the crop dusting in the rural agricultural areas near Kim's location. When I get drift it is from tractor pulling a sprayer across a nearby field, and I've never lost more than a dozen tomato plants and a few herbs in one year. Kim's just as likely to be hit by herbicide drift from a crop duster as from a neighbor spraying his or her property, so her damage would tend to be more broadspread, possibly over her entire garden.I believe she's been hit by herbicide drift previous to this latest incident too.

I think eastern Red cedars might be a decent windbreak if they can handle her rowdy winds out there. They're awfully hard to kill. Down here, the ranchers cut them down and then paint a strong herbicide on their stump, and the often come right back despite that. A guy with our electric co-op once explained to me how they cut down trees and brush to keep them from growing up into the power lines, then spray them with a herbicide to keep them from resprouting. I told him that I wasn't impressed with the herbicide they were using because we saw too much regrowth almost immediately. He laughed and kind of agreed with me. He was using a new spreader-sticker with that herbicide in that year to see if he would see less regrowth. Based on how fast our next-door neighbor's cedar trees near our fenceline resprouted, I'd say the brushkiller sprayed on their stumps didn't do much killing.

It seems crazy that the herbicides won't easily kill what you're using them to kill, but they'll drift through the air and kill innocent plants on someone else's property.

True. I drove by the man's fields on my way out of town yesterday and all the weeds are sprouting. Apparently he had paraquat sprayed because his tractor is down. But all the weeds are coming up again anyway. So likely he will still have to plow. Crazy place I landed here.

It is likely that he uses herbicides so much that his weeds on his place are becoming tolerant of or resistant to the specific herbicides they use regularly. When that happens, the standard thing is to change to a different herbicide. You keep doing that until none of the herbicides work on the weeds in your field.....and, after that, then what?

I hate the thought that all the damage y'all have incurred was because someone's tractor was not working. Such an odd quirk of fate, but look at the resulting damage.

Since the advent of Round-up Ready crops, many states are reporting they are finding glyphosate-resistant weeds, including glyphosate-resistent Johnson grass. I bet you have farmers all around your area growing Round-Up Ready crops.

Yes the cotton, and corn is all round up ready. I don't know about wheat. It is funny how the weeds evolve to survive the roundup. They still have to hire hoe hands in the fields. So Monsanto is working to come up with the next combo to avoid hoes.

It is obvious I will not be able to successfully stay chemical free here now so I have to figure out my next step.

They spray crops next to my son's property also. I planted a few tomato and pepper plants one year and the tomato leaves stayed small and curled although they still produced. I had seen a large plastic tank being pulled across the field and spray blowing everywhere but my DIL said they didn't use pesticide because she had never smelled it in all of the years she had lived there. My husband came running into the 5th wheel one morning and said, "Let's get you out of here. They are spraying and I can see it blowing." I am allergic to everything (LOL), so I glanced out the window and could see the plane a long way off in another field, and Al said they had already sprayed one in another direction. We jumped in the car and just as we got even with the field next door, the plane came right over our car with spray flying everywhere. I was trying to get the vents closed and we almost hit a deer that jumped into the roadway trying to get away from the plane (noise and spray). We got out of there as fast as we could and had another deer run across the road in front of us a little further up the road. In a few days the field was brown. I could hardly stand the thought of food being made from a product that had just been sprayed with a defoliant just before harvest and that gave me another reason to avoid soy.

My son doesn't plant a garden, but he has planted many fruit trees and berry vines of all types. So far nothing has killed the trees, so he has been lucky with that. His property is protected by a huge hill on one side, and grass land on another, but the 200+ acre field beside him always gives me reason for concern and he has spent many dollars on trees.

Wow. That's quite an experience. You and your family and the deer all running from the chemicals!

Is there a movie about this cause there should be.

I don't know if there is a movie, but there ought to be.

Kim, I'd suggest moving away someplace else, if it weren't for your little man. I know you'd never move away from him, so to some degree you are sort of stuck. How about beekeeping? You could collect the honey and sell it at the Farmer's Market? Or, since you're good at raising seedlings, maybe you raise transplants and sell them in future years.

I wonder if there is any research on how much floating row covers do or do not allow herbicides to penetrate them? The heavier ones might be enough to keep most drift off plants in low tunnels? That is something for us to try to spend some time figuring out during this heat wave. While all row covers allow some air penetration (they have to!) and rain penetration, maybe they'd stop enough of the herbicides to save the plants. There has to be a way to work around this.

Dawn

Sandra Bullock thank you. Wow I would have thought Edith bunker. I saw the farmer plowing yesterday and heard that this chemical is not supposed to be used in the spring because of the opportunity to volatize.

Well, that just figures. Sadly people do what they want to do very often and just totaly ignore the label directions.

I don't know what is going on this year, but things just seem off. We have neighbors with ranches that usually are gorgeously green this time of year, and this year they just aren't looking that good. I don't just mean on our street, but all over. I sort of think the early hot weather was very hard on the cool-season grasses in late winter and early spring, but then the cool weather in May was hard on the warm-season grasses, so nothing looks good right now. Some people did have huge first cuttings of hay, but others didn't. At all.

I've seen a lot of people out spraying the last couple of weeks, and of course, just from watching, you cannot tell if they are spraying herbicide or fertilizer, but Tim has watched enough that he thinks he is seeing a lot of herbicide being sprayed. I feel like there is a huge over-reliance on herbicides in this country, and every year we see more and more folks posting on different forums all over Garden Web, putting up photos of plants damaged by herbicide drift and other photos of plants damaged by herbicide carryover in manure, compost, hay mulch, purchased soil mixes, free compost and mulch from their cities, etc.

Many people don't give herbicide drift or herbicide carryover a passing thought until it happens to them. We all need to realize it is happening to all of us more and more frequently. I guess there is nothing on our own property that we want to kill badly enough that we will use a herbicide of any sort. We just don't use them and won't use them, and haven't used them in years and years.

Why can't they just use a teakettle full of boiling water like my grama?

Well I am back up and running. We are waiting to hear from TDA and then will present my claim to the insurance company. I am only asking for monies lost from sales. Everyone wants me to ask for more because I would get it but the way I look at it is I don't want their money, I just want mine. What I would have made selling my chemical free produce.

I did my first market last week. I sold out beets and carrots in 1 hour. People loved my stuff and how I cleaned it I guess. They made comments about one vendor that brought hers "full of dirt" I just laughed. They maybe didn't realizethat beets come out of the dirt. A friend gave 50 +aloe babies to pot up and sell. They go for $2 each so that will help. Since I don't have my greens which was my main crop to sell I feel funny with just a 50 bags of carrots and beets.

Benji was in awe that everyone who came and wanted one bag bought 2 when they heard my deal

$3 bag or 2/$5

Then he just nearly thought I was a genius. I had to confess I didn't invent the idea. Just like everything else I study and learn what works for others. And try it for myself. Anyway it was a great time and I learned a lot. This week I set up by myself. :0

Oh and we didn't get to eat any apricots or peaches. But our root crops and new growth is good to go thankfully.

Congrats on the successful market. I'm glad to hear that some things are going well for you after such an awful incident damaged your garden so badly. I know that you are a quick learner and a hard worker, and it pays off no matter what sort of trouble you encounter along the way.

Be sure you don't settle for too little. Consider how much you would have had available to sell from the week of the incident all the way through autumn, because that is the crop, harvest and sellable product that their actions denied you. Don't sell yourself short because they won't take you seriously as a businesswoman in the future if you settle for too little money now. (I expect this will happen again. In fact, I'd bet money on it, so don't let them off the hook too lightly. If the price they have to pay is too low, there is no incentive for them to be extra-careful to avoid doing this again.) Add in the cost of the fruit that y'all aren't getting to eat. They should be paying you for the same amount of ORGANIC fruit, which costs a lot more at the store. Don't forget that! They should be paying you the monetary value not just of your lost sales but also of the cost to plant replacements because you did lose future sales plus you incurred the additional cost of replanting after they damaged and killed your plants. There's a time to be nice and you still can be very pleasant about all this, but there's also a time to be tough, strong and assertive. This is that time.

Yay Kim!