Yeah, CP. This is a 5 year old thread and the QUESTION is always new. The search for the " Best Tasting and the Most Sweetest .." tomato continue. This is a never ending thing. OK. My definition of good tomato taste is not "the sweetest". I like a tomato with a delicate balance of sweetness and acidity, with a juicy texture and nice color when sliced. I have found one such tomato: ANANAS NOIRE (pic below ) Another one is CHEROKEE PURPLE PLE

No wonder I'm confused! Excuse my ignorance, but how can one named tomato be so many different varieties? And how can companies "alter" one variety and still call it the same thing? I guess I don't understand the legal aspects of naming varieties. **** Sandy, it's not many varieties it's different versions of the same variety. Any compnay can breed in tolerance to V or F or whatever. it's been done with lots of varieties, mainly older commercial OP's as well, of course with modern hybrids. It's much better than a single variety having more than one name and that too happened in the late 1800's through maybe the 1920's or so. I could list here just one variety and a list of known synonyms for that same variety. The seed business back then was cut throat, that's for sure, and there are no laws that apply to any naming of varieties back then and there still are no laws that pertain to the naming of varieties today, just patents for some of the more recent hybrids. If it's an indeterminate Rutgers you're after, why not try the Fedco source and see what you get. (So it seems there's no way of knowing which variety we grew in the 1950s & 60s. I'll just have to order seeds from several companies and grow them out next season and see which I like best now.) I'm not sure if you're talking here to Rutgers or not, but if so, then the most common form of Rutgers grown in the 50's and 60's was the semi-det/det one. I hate to say it but I'm old enough to remember my father growing it at our farm back then, along with several other well know commecial varieties such as Valiant, New Yorker, Manalucie, and friends. There are many of the older commercial varieties that are listed at Sandhill Preservation and lots more listed in the SSE Yarbook for SSE members. Trust me, all is not lost.(smile) Carolyn

First, I tried to answer the question about the definition of OP using the same genetic terms that pennyrile used. So that's an attempt to defione an OP based on genetic issues alone. What Trudi posted is a definition based more on a functional basis. Here's what Trudi quoted from her source: (In addition to their long history of use, the heirloom vegetables that are routinely grown from seed are open-pollinated, meaning that they set seed "naturally," often aided by wind, rain, or pollinating insects, and can thus be renewed by sowing the seeds harvested from each generation of plants. Known also as standard or non-hybrid, open-pollinated varieties tend to be stable and true-breeding. They differ from F1 hybrids, which in usual practice result from deliberate crossing of two distinct, highly inbred parent lines. (The term "F1" to describe the hybrid offspring indicates the "first filial" generation, with respect to the parent lines.)) Trudi, I know that definition well and used to use it when asked, but a couple of things about it started bothering me. (are open-pollinated, meaning that they set seed "naturally," often aided by wind, rain, or pollinating insects, and can thus be renewed by sowing the seeds harvested from each generation of plants. Known also as standard or non-hybrid, open-pollinated varieties tend to be stable and true-breeding.) Possible Problem #1; if cross pollinated by pollinating insects a variety is no longer genetically stable, as in true brreding. Possible Problem #2; nothing was said about spontaneous mutations which can also alter varieties. Possible Problem #3. What about all the varieties that were bred by individuals and done so deliberately? Would then one still consider all of TOm Wagner's varieties such as Green Zebra, Green Grape, Elberta Girl and on and on, as OP's b'c they didn't come about via natural means? Same comment for all of the ones bred by joe Bratka such as Snow White, Super Snow White, Ghost, Rabbit, Marizol Purple, aka Marizol Bratka, and all the Sara thises and that's that he bred. Since they were bred are they to be considered OP? s And what about all the ones bred by Joe's father, such as Box Car Willie, Mule Team, Red Barn, Great Divide and Pasture. Are they OP's using the "natural" definition? And there are more examples. ( They differ from F1 hybrids, which in usual practice result from deliberate crossing of two distinct, highly inbred parent lines. (The term "F1" to describe the hybrid offspring indicates the "first filial" generation, with respect to the parent lines.)) The purpose here is to produce F1 seed for sale whereas the deliberate crosses made by Tom Wagner, Joe Bratka, his father, Tad Smith and others is not to produce F1 seed, rather, to dehybridize the F1's that they create to develop OP's from selections at the F2, F3, level, for instance. I guess what I'm saying is that I've know that functional definition of OP for a long time and that goes back to the late 80's. But in more recent years we do have lots of folks making their own crosses, so it seems maybe a bit problematic now to say that an OP can only arise by natural means, forgetting the comment about X pollination by insects. Just something to think about. Carolyn

and also telling what Carolyn says about commercial growing - commercial growers want something that ships well (ie hard)and produces a lot. Why would anyone want to grow something that ships well (other than a commercial grower) that produces a ton of tomates that *taste bad?* Not me. ***** Tom, unless you've tried some hybrids and grown them under your conditions with your soil and all else I think it's dicey to condemn all of them. ( smile) Shippability is needed for the large scale commercial grower, that's true, but the smaller specialty farmers grow for road side stands and local farmer's markets. I would suggest that you try some of the earliest hybrids released b'c speaking personally, I find them to be less hard, productive and have pretty darn good taste. So you might consider: Big Boy Better Boy Supersonic Jet Star ......and the dehybridized version of Ramapo F1. The latter two, Supersonic and Jet Star, are Harris hybrids and I think they are even better than Big Boy and Better Boy, altho those two have one parent in common, a large pink beefsteak from the midwest called Teddy Jones. I've grown and/or tasted many more modern hybrids b'c the farmer who used to let me grow all my tomatoes at his place is a commercial farmer who grows many different hybrids. Softer ones just won't stand up to the machine that washes them then spews them down a conveyor belt to be grabbed and packed. Sigh. As I said above, I don't grow hybrids as a back up to my OP's, I grow them to compare with my OP's. And that's b'c, again, none of them, OP or hybrid, have significant tolerance to foliage diseases which is what I deal with most commonly. And if you want something in an OP that's very tasty and highly productive, then try Break O Day, a former well regarded commercial variety that was displaced as hybrids became popular, and there are many good OP's that got displaced with the advent of hybrids. Carolyn