Welcome to Kitchens, Jordan. I appreciate DIY'ers! When you work on the plan tonight, it would be helpful if you labeled all the rooms, and labeled the low windows, load bearing walls, etc. If you can use a grid of 1 sq to 1' or 6", that makes it easy for us to rearrange elements and visualize space.

The following thread has some good kitchen planning info:

New to Kitchens? Read me first.

Have you ever lived in an open layout before? Or will the one you are trying to achieve here be your first ever?

I ask because, though open layouts are good for entertaining and keeping an eye on small children, they have some downsides in other living situations (day-to-day stuff for a couple or people with children older than 7 or 8) that you should be aware of. This includes never being able to get away from each other, cooking smells permeating all rooms, cooking noise permeating all rooms, everybody's having to listen to or watch whatever one person is listening to or watching, always feeling as if you are always in the same room even if you get up and move, etc.

The best solution to these things that I've seen is a combination of excellent range hood venting and having other living areas in the home quite separate from the open area (a quiet home office, a den, a hang out space upstairs for the teenagers, etc.). I've also seen pocket doors installed in clever ways to allow homeowners to choose on a daily basis whether or not your layout is open.

I am living in jillius's written world with 11 and 13 year olds. Very wise words to think about and consider.

I have not lived in an open concept before but thank for the good points. I would not have thought about those. We are just considering as one option, not the only option. Here are some additional markup images and hopefully this helps.

jdwood1111's ideas · More Info

Photos from the house listing:

Dining room, looks narrow but its the camera.

View from looking from pocket door.

I would very much entertain the kitchen open to eating area (do you need 2 eating areas?) idea but I'd avoid kitchen open to or in the same large room as the living room.

The DR looks nice and long (OK, it could be the camera, but the table does not look cramped).

I also really like the piano location!

What was under those upper cabinets that seem to be hanging in mid air, so to speak? Nothing is under them and the DW prevents any base cabinets in that space.

I'm very glad to hear that you want a true range hood- especially with an open concept layout - if it's sized/powered/vented properly, it will keep virtually all cooking heat/odors/grease/steam/etc. (HOGS), from spreading throughout the house.

• For a range/cooktop against the wall, ideally, the hood should be 6" wider than the cooking surface (e.g., 36" wide hood over a 30" cooktop or range) and 24" deep. If you have cabinets butted up against the hood, you could get away with a hood the same width - but you need the wall + adjacent cabinets to help capture the HOGS.
• For a cooktop/range in an island or peninsula (not recommended, btw), the minimum is 6" wider and 27" deep. This is what you appear to have.
• Fan should be at least 600cfm.

===============

Are the measured layouts above the existing space? It seems to be, but you list them as your ideas.

Would you consider something like this for an overall layout? To fit a nice island with seating, you will need to eliminate much of the load-bearing wall b/w the existing Formal LR and DR.

The Formal LR would be an escape from any distractions/noise/hustle & bustle as needed. Both the doors to the DR and the Entry could be closed - but kept open most of the time.

The new FR location puts kids, etc., within sight of the kitchen and the two rooms are connected for sharing TV, visiting, etc. (or play dates for the kids - parents sit in the kitchen at the island visiting and the kids play in the FR).

The DR can also be formal or casual, depending on what you want at the moment. If you have doors b/w the Kitchen & DR, you can create a more intimate feel by closing them (and hiding the kitchen clutter) or you can create a casual feel by leaving the doors open - which would probably be most of the time.

The Entry has a bit of separation - just enough to block most of the view of the kitchen as the first think you see when you enter and the FR as well.

You could put the doorway in the middle instead - it might block even more of the kitchen and would allow you to put in a closet on the "top" or a nice piece of furniture (bench, table, etc.) Or, you could put a Powder Room at the top, but it might be a bit tight. You do have one "above" the DR.

Edited to add: I put the rooms the way I did b/c of the windows - the existing DR & Kitchen have windows 40" above the floor; the existing eat-in Kitchen table space has windows only 31.5" off the floor. Raising windows are possible, but it depends on what the exterior of your home is as to whether it would be easy/inexpensive or more difficult/more expensive.

If you like this arrangement, I can work on the Kitchen layout next - but I will wait to hear from you.

Buehl,

Thanks for the quick comments and feedback! There was never anything under those cabinets, very strange right? They are two different size single door cabinets. The dining room looks longer then it is due to the photos and the piano was the previous owners, we do not own one (not a musically talented family).

We actually were thinking very close to your lines except one thing I forgot to include is that we have a fireplace in the family room, the one you proposed to make a formal living room. We wanted to keep that a non formal room/den because of the fireplace (see below). We were even going to put a sofa type table at the entry way to separate it or even a half wall, not sure about a full height wall.

The half bath is a step down that doorway, not drawn, in the eat in kitchen area. I'll try to throw that in there tomorrow for the full effect.

Here is one layout we were thinking about. It also give you the full shape of the house with the front bump outs that I did not draw in the other sketch since I was getting used to the program.

Edited: Just saw your comment. The kitchen in that area and layout is very similar to what we were thinking so I would appreciate any input you can provide! Also, I would rather not mess with those windows now. We did talk about changing them to french doors later down the road.

"...We actually were thinking very close to your lines except one thing I forgot to include is that we have a fireplace in the family room, the one you proposed to make a formal living room. We wanted to keep that a non formal room/den because of the fireplace (see below)."

But, the last layout you posted looks basically the same as what I did - with the room with the fireplace the Formal LR.

Edited to add: It makes more sense to connect the Family Room with the Kitchen than the Formal Living Room. If you keep the Formal LR in its current location, I don't think you should open up the wall b/w the new Kitchen location and the Formal LR. I think that taking the wall down and connecting the room w/the Kitchen automatically changes it from a formal to an informal space.

Regarding the kitchen - have you abandoned the desire for an island?

"...Or, dream would be to open the wall up and place a big island in the middle of the living room with the kitchen in the dining room spread into the existing kitchen. My wife has a large family and we want to be able to host parties, etc. First one this past weekend was so tight in the kitchen, no one could move."

I'm actually a bit confused by the description. You want an island in the Living Room?

The Kitchen...

I would switch the range & DW, for starters. The DW should be next to the sink, not around the corner. Ergonomically, this is the best configuration.

I would then move the sink & DW down toward the table.

Before I continue, I have a few questions:

(1) What is your family composition?

(2) Do you ever have more than one person working in the kitchen? If so, will more than one be prepping/cooking? Cleaning up while someone else is prepping/cooking? If not now, will you in the future when your children start learning to help out in the kitchen - both cooking & cleaning up?

(3) When you host large parties, will guests be helping out in the kitchen?

The last layout was made before my wife said she wanted that room to stay a den/family room/play room and I never edited it, sorry for the confusion.

The island would not be in the living room, but the wall would be opened up with two posts to support the load bearing wall and we would place an island between those posts. This would then tie the ktichen to the living room making it exactly what you said, less formal. My wife does not want a formal living room or dining room, so this would be ok.

I agree with switching the DW and stove as well. Do you think the stove could stay there and place the DW next to the sink? There would be a 9" cabinet between the two if we did a 36" sink cabinet. If we leave that center wall, my wife liked not seeing the stove from the front door. If we open it up, it would matter as much. It would also be easier to vent it on the back wall.

1) We are a young family, just myself, my wife and our 10 month old son but plan on expanding. We want a big family, 3-4 kids, maybe more but we'll see.

2) It is primarily my wife only in the kitchen monday-friday. I help on weekends but always help clean up during the week. I would like to think our kids would help as well, my wife would probably make them!

3) Her family definitely does help cook/prepare during parties. Her family, primarily her 4 sisters and mom also always seem to congregate in the kitchen.

A clean-up sink in the island is usually discouraged here, but with your currents windows, you could have this set-up, which has several areas for prep. Measurements are approximate:

ETA, I was using the proportions on the plan, but reviewing the other plans, it seems there is 21-22' between the stairs and the right wall, so there is much more space available for wider entry aisles, and for a longer island or seating on two sides of the island.

GW discussions--deeper counters

GW dscussions--deeper drawers

Well mama goose you just gave my wife a whole new design to think about! That is what I was thinking. She never thought she would like having the main sink in the island but with that layout she really thinks it might work for her! If I read that correctly too it looks like you have uppers on the fridge wall, which we both like a lot!

Not sure about the price of the deeper cabinets and drawers but if its not too high we could definitely consider that. It would at least be nice on the fridge wall since we have a full depth fridge.

I would definitely like to keep the openings to 42" and your additional comment was right, there is around 21' between those walls.

Would the trash be better next to the sink in the island though?

The trash pull-out would work better under the main prep area, so if your wife decides she will be using the island for main prep, then the 18" cab beside the clean-up sink could be a trash-pullout. There is 43" on that end, and if you don't want seating on the other end, both the sink and DW could move to the left, for more prep space. You'd still have the prep sink for a second prep area, and for filling pots, and emptying pots of boiling water without crossing the aisle. ETA, even if she decides to prep on the fridge end of the island, someone else can be loading or unloading the DW, or setting the table, without interfering with prep or cooking, since the dishes and flatware would be stored on the other end of the kitchen.

You don't have to go to the expense of deeper cabinets to get deeper counters. I used standard-depth base cabinets, and pulled them out from the wall 3 inches (the depth of two sistered 2x4s, which I attached to the studs behind them, then attached the cabinets as usual).

You could frame the pantry, rather than using a more expensive tall pantry cabinet--just make sure the fridge doors protrude past the pantry corner, so that the fridge door will open fully.

I'm concerned about putting the Cleanup Zone in the island if you want to keep the room in front of the Kitchen as the Formal Living Room. If it were me, I would not want to see dirty dishes from any formal rooms.

Putting the Cleanup Zone in the island means your dirty dishes will be front & center for all to see from the Formal Living Room and from the front entry - especially now that the entire wall has been removed - so the first thing guests will see is your dirty dishes on the island. In addition, having the Cleanup Zone in the island means your dirty dishes will be "in the face" of anyone sitting at the island.

Maybe you feel differently - maybe you and your wife do not care about the dirty dishes, I just know that I would definitely not want dirty dishes on display! (Some people say they never let dirty dishes accumulate so they say they never have dirty dishes sitting out - but that means you can never relax on that stance b/c once you do, you end up with those dirty dishes staring you in the face!)

Oh, and the distance b/w the faucet or back of the sink (whichever is farther back toward the seats) to the edge of the seating overhang should be at least 18" to minimize splashing your guests from the cleanup sink (there is generally more splashing when cleaning up than when prepping.)

I would also be very, very careful about your aisle widths. Given your past experience, you should realize that any aisle less than 48" is going to be an issue for you. If that 36".

It's really too bad the windows in the far right room are only 31.5" off the floor. The ideal layout given the other rooms and amenities - fireplace, powder room, garage, laundry - would be to put the Kitchen on the far right ("over" the room with the fireplace) and the DR on the far left. You could then put sliding or french doors b/w the formal LR and the DR to truly make the formal LR a sanctuary or a place away from the normal every-day clutter a family has.

Are you sure you cannot raise the windows in the far right room? In most cases, it costs less to do that than it does to remove a load-bearing wall!

The other option is to add a gas fireplace to the current formal LR to allow you to make it the Family Room/Playroom and then put the formal LR on the far right. Then, it would make sense to put the Kitchen on the far left. In this configuration, it's not as bad having the dirty dishes in the island - personally, I still would not want it, but that's my personal opinion.

Buehl,

My wife does not really want to keep the living room formal,
nor the dining room. As for the dirty
dishes, great point and that is something she is thinking and why she didn’t
originally like this concept and is thinking about it.

As for aisles, I agree.
I would most likely place the post supports directly over the posts in
the basement which would give me plenty of space on the left side of the kitchen
and would probably give me 42” (or a little more depending on trim and such) on
the right side between the basement door.
Here is a rough idea of spacing based on the posts in the basement. I added the full first floor of the house showing the rest of the layout to provide full perspective. Doing it this way just alleviates having to
make sure the center beam can handle the adjusted point loads.

I could modify the windows, but I think that is the ideal
place for French doors to the outside.

We would love to add a gas fireplace! We would like to put one in the current
fireplace as well as over in the living room area. We currently do not have gas but it is
available. Long story short, whenever
the recently installed boiler gives us problems, we will be converting to gas.

I worked this up, but I don't know if the posts will line up with the ones in the basement. I will say this, make the kitchen functional. You can add additional posts in the basement, if needed, fairly easily. In fact, you may have to if you don't have stone counters now & you plan to get them now - we did*.

This is what I came up with. It adds a good size Pantry - but it does take up some o the space in the LR. However, the door opens into the kitchen. It's location on the periphery makes it easy for those prepping/cooking to access as well as those looking for a snack - without the snackers getting in the way of those working in the kitchen.

This also applies to the refrigerator and MW - again, they're easily accessed while prepping/cooking as well as when looking for a snack.

The refrigerator is also convenient to the DR for condiments, etc., needed during meals and it can be accessed from both the FR and LR w/o crossing through the primary kitchen work zones.

Both walls have 3" deeper counters than standard. It provides deeper workspace, more storage, and allows you to pull the sink out from the wall 3". This can be accomplished by either getting 27" deep base cabinets or by pulling the base cabinets out from the wall 3". The uppers are 15" deep. Note that I did not put in any uppers on the window wall - this will help give your kitchen a nice open feel and with the large Pantry and a nice # of base cabinets, I don't think you'll miss them!

Notice that I created a Snack/Beverage Center near the refrigerator & MW but out of the primary work zones.

The primary work zones (Prep, Cooking, Cleanup) are nicely spread out with plenty of workspace in each to allow multiple cooks to work in the kitchen at one time without tripping over each other. It will also work well when just one person is working in the kitchen.

The Cleanup Zone is along the left wall where it's out of the way of the Prep & Cooking Zones so someone can be cleaning up or unloading the DW while someone else is preparing a meal. It contains a 30" wide dish hutch (see the picture for a description) - with the upper cabinet down to the counter.

There are two nice Prep Zones - one in the island where you can prep facing guests or watch the TV in the LR. The other is in front of the window on the window wall and b/w the cleanup sink and range. Not only does this give you multiple prep spaces when you have a crowd (or your children start helping), but it gives you the flexibility to choose whether to prep facing the inside or outside. If you're one who likes to prep next to the range instead of across from it, you have that option as well.

The island is big enough for 5 seats - with 2 "around the corner". Having seating on two sides is much more conducive to conversation than having all the seats like "ducks sitting in a row". The overhangs on both sides are 15" deep (well, 15.5", but close enough!). 15" is the minimum recommended overhang for counter-height seating. If you or your family are tall or have long legs, you might consider increasing the overhang on the short side to 18" (just decrease the 33" cabinet to 30").

There's 4' of storage under the overhang for seldom-used/seasonal items.

Layout #1:

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Layout #1 Zone Map:

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* When we redid our kitchen, I was concerned that we would need additional support b/c we put in tile floors and stone counters - where we had originally had vinyl floors and laminate counters. I did some calculations based on our stud sizes/spacing/materials, and we were on the edge, so we decided to add additional support posts in the basement - just in case. My DH did it and it was not expensive.

buehl,

Sorry for the delayed response, it was our 7 yr anniversary
yesterday! Anyway, thank you so much for
all the effort and ideas! First off, if
you won’t mind me asking what program are you using to do these sketches so
quickly?

I completely understand what you are saying about making the
kitchen functional over the posts. I am
slowly working on numbers now and I think in order to get the spans we need and
not have to add posts I am around 3 2x12’s but I’ll still running numbers. It would still be ideal to be within
1ft-1.5ft of the basement posts to reduce the amount of structural
modifications. However, I did not
initially think about the extra load from the counter tops and such. The house does have granite but not a lot of
it. The perimeter of the house should be
fine but the island would definitely need to be considered and evaluated.

Anyway, my wife and I aren't sure about the pantry protruding out
in the front entry way like that. We like the idea of a pantry that large but I'm not sure of that location. I had previously
talked to her about building a small one on the far left dining room wall a
little deeper than the fridge if we place it there similar to what mama goose
shows in that layout. Maybe install a small pocket door to eliminate swing concerns. However, my wife
did like the idea of having the fridge more in the center of the house like you
show.

I haven’t sold her on two sinks yet, which is very
surprising. Any words of wisdom as to
why two are beneficial? I mean it a lot
more plumbing and fixtures, etc. but with the basement it is not terrible.

Am I reading that correctly in that the island would roughly
60”x90”? That would great to fit that in
there.

I also like your “message command center” idea. We originally thought about a kitchen desk
somewhere to put something like that in but that location would also work well.

I still need to review this in detail with my wife but those
are some initial thoughts.

So after talking to my wife about your suggestions and other things she has saw and wants, this is the rough layout she thinks she wants. This is similar to mama goose. She does not really want two sinks, although I see the benefit but she is not really interested.

I am not wild about the refrigerator there but she thinks it ideal located like Buehl stated. No we just need some help with the type of cabinets to go where based this layout. I can't get the exact spacing correct but this is close enough for the moment. What programs do you guys use when doing this sketches previously posted? Is it a free program?

Jordan - if you'd like, I can send you the template I use. Email me at EverCurious2009 at gmail dot com

So after some discussions (many) with my wife this is what she think wants and I just wanted to see what you all thought. The calcs are done for the LVL beam to be installed and the posts are going to line up in the basement so the island is relatively locked in. We are not 100% sure where to put the microwave or which type of cabinets to use at all locations but she would like drawer cabinets in the two cabinets right of the stove. I would love any feedback you can provide.

As for finishes, she is actually thinking black or dark stained wood cabinets, butcher block counters around the perimeter and a concrete or similar island top. This may be switched the other way around as she hasn't solidified what she wants.

Thanks to Buehl for the PP template, it worked great!

You've got a LOT going on on that island. Too much. You are going to end up wasting all that other awesome counter space because there's no water there and no reason to use the space.

Imagine the kids (or guests) seated at the island, washing vegetables, trying to prep over the trash (a VERY small prep area) and then have someone help put some of the prep bowls, etc in the dishwasher, and then have some snacks out of guests. the hosts will be tripping all over each other, and the guests will be in the splash zone (at least with me...)

And everything behind you is clean and empty.

Very valid point! We are debating about adding a second sink over by the window to the left of the stove but not sold on two sinks. Budget is obviously a concern but one extra sink probably would be too much money but you are talking more plumbing and fixtures.

We don't know how else to incorporate the cabinets to the left.

Well my wife decided she wants the second sink! So here is our revised layout. Any feedback is appreciate it! My one big question is, can the sink (probably an 18") be offset in the 33" cabinet in order to center it on the left window (two windows make up that long one) or do I put a 12" cabinet next to the lazy susan and then an 18" cabinet next to that so the sink is centered in the cabinet and the window?

Jordan, your plans look great. I'm the one who suggested having a clean-up sink and DW on the island, but since you've expanded to put the fridge at the end of the run on the top wall, I think you should reconsider buehl's plan with the clean-up sink on the short wall, and the prep sink on the island. Keep the pantry on the end, and put drawers for dish storage on the side of the island facing the short wall/DW, which completely separates the zones.

True, it puts the dishes and DW farther from the DR, but keeps the dish mess m/l hidden on the perimeter, on the other side of the pantry. I think your wife will enjoy prepping on the island, facing the action in the LR, but she can always prep in front of the window, too. There is enough space in the secondary prep area, that a helper can be loading or unloading the DW at the same time. With dishes on the island, and above the DW, a helper can gather pieces to set the table, without venturing into the prep and cooking zones

I too prefer beuhl's plan to what your latest is Jordan.

Compare how one works in both versions. In both versions you first get food out of the fridge and move it to the prep sink to wash (red arrow). You then prep it on the counter next to the sink (green arrow). Finally you bring it to the cooktop to cook. (Blue arrow)

In your version you have to walk right behind the cook to bring anything to the prep sink and then if you want to clean up while the cook is cooking, you'll possibly be bumping into the cook because the cleanup sink on the island will be right behind the cooktop. Compare that to beuhl's version where the cleanup sink is off by itself allowing the cook to not be bothered by someone cleaning up behind them

Thank you both for the comments! I think my wife is just about set on this plan though. She did not like the sink on the short wall because our last house had a sink on a wall with no windows and she really did not like it. Additionally, she wants that cabinet in the back left corner to go down to the counter. This would limit the space a little in that area as well.

As for the island overhang, that wall I can build anywhere. We are doing it that to save money on some cabinets. I might try to be creative in building a storage area under there but we'll see.

I have another question about height but should I start another post for that one since our layout is just about set? Our kitchen is only 91.5-92" tall so I was thinking of getting 90" tall and going to the ceiling with trim. Should we lower down to 84 just in case to give our selves some more room? Its really only on the one left wall and the one cabinet above the fridge.

What size is the trim/crown in the rest of the living spaces? That might be a factor, if you want it to match. In my limited experience, if the ceilings aren't level (and none of mine are), it's better to use a piece of fascia, hung level, and attach the trim/crown moulding to that, especially if you have only 1.5" available. I'd go for the 84" height.

Yea I know my ceilings aren't flat or the floors aren't level (probably a little of both). The trim throughout the house is actually going to get changed to whatever we decide to use for the kitchen because the whole house is the old clamshell molding that we dislike greatly! If we end up going with Conestoga cabinets we will probably just order 33" tall cabinets since the cost change is minimal which would be ideal. If we go with others we probably should decrease it.