Pictures and layouts would help, but with such a tight spread between your home's current all-in price and the new construction neighborhood, I wouldn't spend any more money if you really want to sell now. If you plan to stay for a while, that's a different thing (i.e., what's it worth to you to make the kitchen more functional now).

Maybe list it (by owner, if you're able/willing), and see what you get. These things are highly regional, so if you'd prefer to go the realtor route, get at least 2 from different offices to give you opinions.

I believe you have two distinguishing things to offer a future buyer - the charm of a 1945 house in a market dominated by new construction, and one more modestly priced. I would not dilute either of these assets, and rather train your imagination on ways to make the house feel happy and attractive in simple and ingenious ways. Think like an artist rather than a developer. One other thing to consider is any tax implication of improvements you are contemplating. Could they trigger a reassessment? You don't want that and neither will the next buyer. My two cents (not as a real estate professional but as a home buyer several times over).

You are in a very low cost of living area so agree you need to be careful. If you plan to sell within a few years I would focus on low cost ways to freshen up the kitchen/bath that might be in the $3-5K total range. This should help it sell faster and I think you'd get your money back. I'd be very cautious about putting a $20K+ kitchen/bath remodel in unless you are planning to stay put for 5-10 years or more. I don't see the point of putting $20K into it hoping to get $20K back.

Wait, what did you pay for this place? Be careful not to over improve. You will never see dollar for dollar return on your investment. Best to do most of the improvements yourself. Would love to see pics.

Family had a 2/2 house. Finally sold to a flipper for a song who turned it into a 3/2. Your biggest impediment to selling your house is it's only a 2 bedroom. If that can be fixed fairly inexpensively you will create value. Otherwise don't over improve.

I agree pictures and a floor plan would help. You will want to play up your home's charming, cottage like aspects. I'm wondering why your floors "roll" and the walls aren't square. Our house was built in 1917, and we have a little wonkiness in a few spots, but by and large, the house is solid, plumb and square. As a buyer, I'd be concerned as to the structure's soundness more than the details of the kitchen. Some old houses were solid and well built. Some were not.

And you need to pay attention to what is happening while you wait. I dithered on the kitchen for two years and during that time people in my area went from buying and renovating to buying, scraping the lot and putting up McMansions.....that made my interest in the more expensive remodeling drop to zero but my 1946 kitchen had still had it. I found used cabinets on craigslist and did not move the plumbing and electric (I did have to upgrade the electric but I not move it, I did remove the weird pony walls), redo the floors and add counters that I like. All while keeping the budget down because it is/was not an investment. This is not my forever home....

With a 1.5 acre lot in a good location it would seem that's the main feature of the property and a potential buyer might well tear down the house to build a custom home (or even subdivide the property and build multiple houses if that's allowed). Of course if there are many vacant lots all over the neighborhood that becomes less likely.

Location is everything. You can renovate all you want, but that will never change your property's location. There is a complete dump next door, which I would never want to live in, but it's currently listed for 1M, completely due to location. Small condo's under 850ft go for around 380K in my neighborhood, which is exceeds the cost of grand houses where I grew up.

It sounds to me like when your house goes on the market it'll be a candidate for tear-down and development of the land. I would consider any investment in your house to be for your own pleasure and quality of life. Not an investment.

It wouldn't hurt to post some pictures and a floor plan of your kitchen in a new thread. The folks here love a challenge and knowing the budget should be minimal they might have son creative solutions you haven't thought of yet.

Wow thanks everyone for all the helpful input!

Stan Z, don't worry, we know better than to put 20k in. And I'm paying for half of everything so I'm just as vested as DH now. I want to go the conservative route but don't want to wait for years to get it done either. Our original budget was in the range you mentioned: $3-5k. In fact DH said he was thinking $4k on kitchen and $1k on bath, which sounds reasonable to me.

--------

Steph " Wait, what did you pay for this place?"

Yep we paid under $25k. That's not a typo.

-------

luckyangel28: "Your biggest impediment to selling your house is it's only a
2 bedroom. If that can be fixed fairly inexpensively you will create
value. Otherwise don't over improve."

I'm pretty against it; it would be very obvious and awkward to add a third bedroom. I also forgot to mention in my first post that none of the rooms have closets at all. I wonder how much that hurts us?

-------

laughablemoments: "I agree pictures and a floor plan would help. You will want to play up your home's charming, cottage like aspects."

IMO, it doesn't have any. When we first inspected the house before doing any renovations to it, it was absolutely filthy and not fit for habitation. Previous owners really let the place go. And it has no charming characteristics. No fireplace. No cute nook area. Nothing like that. The floorplan goes like this:

Back door leads into the kitchen. To the right there is the laundry room. If you go straight from the kitchen you are in the diningroom. We removed a non-load bearing wall to open up the space between the dining and living rooms so that looks good now. Just as you first enter the livingroom, there is a very short "hallway" that leads to two bedrooms and the bathroom. These people had zero creativity.

--------

homechef59: "Your home, while charming,"

Not really.

"While the home mostly suits your needs"

Not really. Kitchen layout has no place for dishwasher or fridge. Fridge sits in dining room. Bedrooms have no closets. Living room is tiny. Bedrooms are small. Kitchen has no island.

"Chances are the foundation"

We have had a few professionals look at it; it's solid in spite of the fact that the floors have an obvious roll to them.

"roofing"

That was actually replaced before we moved in; it has a properly installed metal roof that we are happy with.

"electrical"

We had an electrician friend re-do the parts of the electrical that needed work, which was pretty much the entire house.

"plumbing"

We are currently facing a $4k project: the septic and lines are so old they could fail at any moment.

"insulation"

Already completely redone except attic.

"windows"

Not yet done but not critical.

"Ask yourself how long you plan to stay in this home?"

3-5 more years. We have now lived in it for 2 years. It's a starter home to allow us time to save money for our "forever" house.

"If it's only a few years and yours is the only home
in the area of this type, you need to live with what you have and save
your money for another home."

The other homes nearby are similar to ours: old, small, cheap price range, but more renovated and up to date than ours.

"One thing I know for sure, if you open up
one item, the list of additional items needing attention will grow
beyond your current imagination."

What do you mean by this? Do you mean that, for example, if we decide to move the load bearing wall we will discover other things that need attention, or that if we decide to remove a cabinet we will discover more things that need work? This is what DH is afraid of. If this is the case, do you think we should keep our current deficient kitchen floorplan where there is no place for a dishwasher or a fridge? If this is the case, who is our target buyer--an elderly couple, a single person, a young couple, etc? These are types that would don't have money or don't want to spend much.

--------

benjesbride: "It
sounds to me like when your house goes on the market it'll be a
candidate for tear-down and development of the land."

Yeah you might be right. Let me tell you more about the location. It's about 7-10 mins drive away from major shopping where a major strip mall recently was redeveloped completely and it looks brand new now--and it's always busy with shoppers and activity. Also, a big employer moved in and created a lot of good paying jobs and they are also about 7-10 mins away (that is the whole reason a huge subdivision started a year ago about a mile from my house). And yet this house is tucked out of the way from all the hustle and bustle. Let me tell you about that subdivision though: out of curiosity, I went over there and took a look for myself. Those houses being put up are basically made of cardboard. I couldn't believe the crap they were putting in there. It was cheaper than the builder grade stuff I was used to looking (I used to look at cookie cutter houses a lot just for fun). And yet they are getting $110k+ on these houses. By comparison, our 1945 fixer is very solidly built.

"I would consider
any investment in your house to be for your own pleasure and quality of
life. Not an investment."

Ok so in that case how much makes sense to spend on further renovations? Our idea currently is max $4k on kitchen and $1k on bath but it's very likely we can get away with less.

"It wouldn't hurt to post some pictures and a floor plan of your
kitchen in a new thread. The folks here love a challenge and knowing the
budget should be minimal they might have son creative solutions you
haven't thought of yet."

I'll do that. Thanks everyone!

laughablemoments asked

"I'm wondering why your floors "roll" and the walls aren't square."

Your house sounds like ones that were thrown up just post-WWII. My DS, who lives in N. VA looked at several houses of that description where you could drop a marble at one end of the house and retrieve it at the other end. Your lot is larger than the ones he was looking at, but the rest sounds very familiar. In those neighborhoods, the houses are considered either tear-downs or rentals. Sad, but they were built en masse without a lot of care on the quality side.

I agree, this isn't a house that you should put serious money into and expect to see it when you sell.

suzanne_sl, "Your house sounds like ones that were thrown up just post-WWII."

You are exactly correct. Nailed it.

"My
DS, who lives in N. VA looked at several houses of that description
where you could drop a marble at one end of the house and retrieve it at
the other end. Your lot is larger than the ones he was looking at, but
the rest sounds very familiar. In those neighborhoods, the houses are
considered either tear-downs or rentals. Sad, but they were built en
masse without a lot of care on the quality side."

Once again you nailed it.

"I agree, this isn't a house that you should put serious money into and expect to see it when you sell."

Ok so in this case how much makes sense for kitchen and bath if we live in it max another 8 years? I'll create a basic sketch of the house and kitchen and post it in my next post in a few mins.

Is the land dividable? if so, could you swing a construction to permanent loan secured by the new lot, then build, and sell or rent the old house?

scone911,

I don't know; it is something we are considering but have not actually looked into. Here is an extremely rough and very not-to-scale and out of proportion sketch of our house's layout.

Hard to tell because its not to scale but my first thought would be to get the kitchen into an L not a U by chopping off the peninsula/wall and have the dining in the middle near where the label says "wall" with the fridge and dishwasher against the exterior wall by the sink. If you could reuse cabinets/countertop that would help.

See if you can create a to scale model of the house.

But right off the bat, if you're planning on living there for the next 8 years the question becomes how much for your own satisfaction do you want to change things up? You will not get back the money on whatever you do, but look at it similar to renting a place.

Amortize it over the 8 years. So for example if you want to redo the kitchen and put $10,000 into the kitchen, amortized over 8 years would means it's costing you approximately $104 more a month to live in the house. Is $104 a month worth your enjoyment?

Of course as someone else pointed out, the minute you start opening walls and ripping down things, then it can snowball very quickly. Especially if the house hadn't been kept up well.

And as others have said, it sounds like in 8 years the only reason would be for someone to buy the house would be for the land.

Stan Z: "Hard
to tell because its not to scale but my first thought would be to get
the kitchen into an L not a U by chopping off the peninsula/wall and
have the dining in the middle near where the label says "wall" with the
fridge and dishwasher against the exterior wall by the sink. If you
could reuse cabinets/countertop that would help."

There are some problems with this idea:

1. The wall in question is a load-bearing wall. There's $3k+.

2. There are kitchen cabinets both above and below the counter that are up against that wall and they would have to be ripped out. Not sure how much this would cost. We could reuse them though I'm sure.

3. Clearing a place for the dishwasher would be problematic. The area to the right of the sink has structural cabinets (DH claims these cabinets are supporting the sink). If this is true, I'm not sure how to fix this or what the cost would be.

4. Turning the kitchen into an L would probably make the dining area too narrow to get around any table no matter how small. My drawing is wildly off; the dining and livingrooms are not as big as my drawing makes them look.

cpartist: "Amortize it over the 8 years. So for example if you want to redo the
kitchen and put $10,000 into the kitchen, amortized over 8 years would
means it's costing you approximately $104 more a month to live in the
house. Is $104 a month worth your enjoyment?"

Well it's not quite that simple. We have already sunk 14k into renovations and we are about to sink another 4k into septic. And we are definitely not done yet; we want to put in a deck and a carport. So really it's adding up quite quickly. When it's all said and done, renovations excluding kitchen will have probably totaled $20k. If we put 10k into the kitchen, which is definitely more than I want to spend, then we'd be at 30k + the purchase price of the house which puts us at about 45k. DH thinks that in 8 yrs we can get 80k but I'm thinking 50k. I don't know who's right; I guess we'll see. So given all of that, I'm not sure how to think about it.

"Of course as someone else pointed out, the minute you start opening
walls and ripping down things, then it can snowball very quickly.
Especially if the house hadn't been kept up well."

The house had been neglected for many years and the work that did get gone wasn't done properly. So I suppose I should expect some snowballing then, which makes me hesitant to move any load bearing walls or tear anything else out.

Another factor to consider: the house has fought every contractor who has worked on it so far, and it has fought DH as well. Any further work done on it will also be a fight. This is because it was thrown together without proper care, planning or consideration.

"And as others have said, it sounds like in 8 years the only reason would be for someone to buy the house would be for the land."

Yes it does seem like that is the consensus being built now, which is sad I suppose but it doesn't surprise me.

What you paid $15K for this house?! Are you in Montana? I have a co-worker who bought a house once for 6 or 8K in Montana, which is pretty crazy. I wouldn't sink more money into house than it's worth, unless we are talking full gut/renovation, which you stated it is not.

If you have that much money to renovate, then I would sell and buy something that is in better condition and meets your needs more. Life's too short.

can you steal some space from the laundry to enlarge the kitchen?

Ok look at it another way. You're saying if you do the kitchen with what you've already sunk into the house plus what you've paid for the house, you'd be at $55,000. That would be a total of $573 a month. Add in your taxes to that. Now another way to look at it is, what would it cost you to rent a similar place? Could you rent something for less than $573 a month?

Additionally, you have no idea what your place will be worth in 8 years. Just ask all those people who speculated and bought houses back in 2006 and paid top dollar. Most still can't get back what they paid for them.

When our parents generation bought houses after coming home from WWII, they didn't think in terms of how much they would make in 5, 10 or 20 years. They came home, bought a small house, added to it as they saw fit and lived in the homes for whatever length of time. If they were lucky, they made a few dollars on the house.

We really need to stop figuring our homes are cash cows to buy and sell. The investment really is a place to call home. A place to live. A place to have a roof over our heads. We (DH and I) look at it more like paying rent for the years we're in the house.

I know the drawing isn't to scale, but I have three suggestions. Keep your U-shaped kitchen. Rather than taking out that load bearing wall, extend it another 40". Then, you can flip the refrigerator to the kitchen side of the extended wall. This would be a $500 project. Framing, drywall and an electrical circuit for the refrigerator. This would get the refrigerator out of the dining room.

My second suggestion is to purchase a portable DW. It can be stored by the hot water heater and rolled across the kitchen to the sink when needed. It's not an ideal solution, but it's practical considering the limitations.

A third idea would be to extend the wall, remove the cabinet at the end of the run, place the DW in this space, put the refrigerator at the end of the new wall extension. This is the most expensive option due to the need to add some plumbing and a drain.

What are the goals you and your husband have for your home? I went back to reread your original post, and I couldn't tell for sure what your long term plans are. Your decision making is going to be different based on whether this is a long term home for you and DH, or if it is a fixer upper that you are hoping to resell in a few years. I do see 8 years mentioned up-thread, but I don't get a clear impression whether this is a hypothetical number or an actual sale date goal.

You say your drawing is wildly off, so this idea might not work, but I'll put it out there. The laundry room looks big enough to to be a bedroom. Around here, the minimum size for a bedroom is 70 square feet. If your laundry room has 70 square feet or more, I'd be looking into turning that into a bedroom. I agree with the person who said a 2 bedroom will be harder to resell than a 3 bedroom.

It also looks like your fridge ought to fit where your DH is proposing the DW goes. The DW absolutely doesn't belong there, but the fridge would be great in that spot.

As far as evaluating the cabinets around the sink, you need to check to see how they are structured. Old style cabinets were made as one long continuous face frame, and then tied into the back wall with very few side supports. If your cabinets are made this way, then your husband is right, and the entire sink run of cabinets will likely have to be replaced, and will probably not be good candidates for re-use. You'll also need to check the depth of the cabinets. If they are shallower than the standard 24" deep, it will be more difficult to find a DW to fit because the DW will stick out past the cabs and counters. Same things goes for the counter height: Is it at 36"? If it's lower, you might not be able to stick a DW there.

However, if your cabinets are individual boxes with side walls every few doors or so, then they are the newer style, and it could be slightly simpler to put a DW in without tearing the whole run of cabs out. (I say "slightly simpler" because if the floors aren't level, replacing cabs and installing a DW just got harder.)

Again, an accurate drawing would be immensely helpful here, but another thought as far as your layout goes is this:. Move the back door to the laundry room. With the old entry closed off, you now have room for the fridge in the kitchen in front of the old doorway, and a whole lot more possibilities for rearranging your cabinets. This kills the 3 bedroom idea, but it makes the kitchen and dining room much more functional.

I wish you well! : ). We've been living through fix-em up and selling 'em for close to 20 years now in multiple locations, so I understand a little bit of the decision making that you and your DH are going through.

is there a cabinet to left of sink? possibly remove it and move sink to the left..install 18 inch dishwasher to right of sink.....bring fridge around to kitchen side of 'wall". . Avoid anything more done to kitchen itself. Reduce size of laundry room....either 1. enlarge the small bedroom or 2. enlarge the bathroom by pushing the small bedroom wall over into laundry room area..or 3. get a stackable washer dryer..streamline the laundry room ....shrink it and try to get a 3rd "room" which can be a mini bedroom/study/office" with a few built ins.... a computer workstation/home office type set up.... What attracted you to this property? the size of lot..the funky charm...just a cheap roof over your head? one and half acre..still not mentioned is garage or outbuilding...is there anything like that....if no garage..possibly think of capital spent for garage with workspace...can rent out workspace...what is going on in your area??..is it country..university..just outside urban??...look at the whole situation. I know I could live in a marginal place as far as "hobbled together mish-match"...I'd rather do less but find the interest...potential....charm......maybe have a long term plan..then go about my life without worry about "getting money back"..even be willing to accept changes to the long term plan. Adjust all of what is going on about this to who you are, as a person...you bought this for some reason..doesn't seem clear...but there is a reason. If there are infrastructure flaws....I would want to know about it....what did the Inspection reveal...for the next potential buyer, say for example, they had the capital to put on a 2nd story..but the foundation hadn't been fixed or addressed...it would be a constraint. Single pane windows??..that's a biggie..do you have the storm windows there in storage somewhere...they can be cleaned up and be used in the interim instead of getting all new windows.[.and then the place gets gutted]..wasted capital.

Given your sketch, and based on instinct and experience, I wouldn't put any more money into this house. It's not worth the hassle, and I don't think you will get it back if there are mass market developers in the area who can undercut you every few years with a new subdivision that has all the bells and whistles.

This house is already nickel and diming you, and that's really bad for your finances-- when you are young, you have a golden opportunity to start saving for retirement, so you have the power of compounding working for you. Throwing cash into a money pit house on speculation that it might be worth something someday, if everything breaks just right, is asking for trouble, IMO. Don't take that risk if you don't have to.

I'd divide the land, if possible, and put a stick built or modular in the new section. Keep the old place as a rental if you can. At least the old house gives you somewhere to live while you build, and a modular can go up fast.

If you can get the land divided and ready to go in the next couple of months, you might (just possibly) be able to move into a new place by Christmas-- and get on with your life.

We had a portable dishwasher for 5 years in our old house when we had one toddler and it worked great. There is even a diverter on the connection to the faucet to get water while the dishwasher was hooked up. So that is a great option for a few years if you don't want to spend the money to change cabinets. Agree with extending the wall to get the fridge into the kitchen for sure. SInce you obviously have electrical close by in that wall (for the current fridge) that is a minor electrical addition. Change the laminate countertop if needed, paint the cabinets, add a few rollouts on the bottom cabinets, and that may be all you need.

homechef59: "I
know the drawing isn't to scale, but I have three suggestions. Keep
your U-shaped kitchen. Rather than taking out that load bearing wall,
extend it another 40". Then, you can flip the refrigerator to the
kitchen side of the extended wall. This would be a $500 project."

That is how it was originally when we moved in. But it was unusable because the fridge stuck out from the counter buy about a foot, it was very awkward. And the space to the left of the fridge was very hard to access due to the fridge having such a huge footprint. It just didn't work. At all. So we removed that part of the wall.

"My second suggestion is to purchase a portable DW. It can be stored
by the hot water heater and rolled across the kitchen to the sink when
needed. It's not an ideal solution, but it's practical considering the
limitations."

I hate that idea.

laughablemoments: "What
are the goals you and your husband have for your home?"

Yes, 8 years is a hypothetical. I'm hoping we have 3 more years because I told him before I agreed to move in that the max I would be willing to live here is 5 years. 2 have passed. But now he says we may have to be here 8-10 total years, which means 6-8 years are left.

"You say your drawing is wildly off, so this idea might not work, but
I'll put it out there. The laundry room looks big enough to to be a
bedroom. Around here, the minimum size for a bedroom is 70 square feet.
If your laundry room has 70 square feet or more, I'd be looking into
turning that into a bedroom. I agree with the person who said a 2
bedroom will be harder to resell than a 3 bedroom."

Where would the washer/dryer go then? And because the bedrooms have no closets, where would we hang our clothes?

"It also looks like your fridge ought to fit where your DH is
proposing the DW goes. "

My picture doesn't show this but that spot is actually too small for a fridge and may also be too small for a dishwasher; fridge would stick out by over a foot, which impedes movement when coming and going through the back door. We never use the front door, only the back door.

"As far as evaluating the cabinets around the sink, you need to check
to see how they are structured. Old style cabinets were made as one long
continuous face frame, and then tied into the back wall with very few
side supports. If your cabinets are made this way, then your husband is
right, and the entire sink run of cabinets will likely have to be
replaced, and will probably not be good candidates for re-use. You'll
also need to check the depth of the cabinets. If they are shallower
than the standard 24" deep, it will be more difficult to find a DW to
fit because the DW will stick out past the cabs and counters. Same
things goes for the counter height: Is it at 36"? If it's lower, you
might not be able to stick a DW there.

However, if your cabinets are individual boxes with side walls every
few doors or so, then they are the newer style, and it could be slightly
simpler to put a DW in without tearing the whole run of cabs out. (I
say "slightly simpler" because if the floors aren't level, replacing
cabs and installing a DW just got harder.)"

There are side walls. I'll need to check counter dimensions.

"Again, an accurate drawing would be immensely helpful here, but
another thought as far as your layout goes is this:. Move the back door
to the laundry room. With the old entry closed off, you now have room
for the fridge in the kitchen in front of the old doorway, and a whole
lot more possibilities for rearranging your cabinets. This kills the 3
bedroom idea, but it makes the kitchen and dining room much more
functional."

I hadn't thought about that. Something tells me this would be very expensive though.

I like the idea of moving the back door. It sounds pretty simple in concept. But, without interior and exterior pictures, we just don't know how involved it might become.

I'm going to continue with the wall extension for the refrigerator. You said the refrigerator would be too big and stick out. So, frame the wall with an L-shape into the dining room just far enough to make the refrigerator sit flush with the line of cabinets. Just trying to keep a lid on costs and get you some improvements.

Sorry about the portable DW idea. If you've never seen one, you should check into it. Just trying to think outside the box to get you some budget sensible ideas. I'm just afraid that the cabinets can't be modified in a cost effective manner without opening a whole can of very costly worms.

herbflavor,

We bought the place because it was all that we could afford at the time without a mortgage, and the housing crisis of 2008 was still fresh on my mind and I absolutely did not want a mortgage, and still don't. We could have qualified for one but we didn't want one.

Our next house will also be paid for in cash but it's going to be our "forever" home and we are projecting that its going to cost 200k. DH owns a business, and now I also own a business. Both our businesses do well. We are not rich. We are middle class. But we will not get a mortgage; we are very debt-averse.

--------------------------

homechef59: "I'm going to continue with the wall extension for the refrigerator.
You said the refrigerator would be too big and stick out. So, frame the
wall with an L-shape into the dining room just far enough to make the
refrigerator sit flush with the line of cabinets. Just trying to keep a
lid on costs and get you some improvements."

That is still moving a load-bearing wall, which costs $3k+, right?

--------------------------

scone911: "Given
your sketch, and based on instinct and experience, I wouldn't put any
more money into this house. It's not worth the hassle, and I don't think
you will get it back if there are mass market developers in the area
who can undercut you every few years with a new subdivision that has all
the bells and whistles.

This house is already nickel and diming you, and that's really bad
for your finances-- when you are young, you have a golden opportunity to
start saving for retirement, so you have the power of compounding
working for you. Throwing cash into a money pit house on speculation
that it might be worth something someday, if everything breaks just
right, is asking for trouble, IMO. Don't take that risk if you don't
have to."

We own it outright; there is no mortgage or lien or backtax; nothing. Free and clear.

"I'd divide the land, if possible, and put a stick built or modular in
the new section. Keep the old place as a rental if you can. At least
the old house gives you somewhere to live while you build, and a modular
can go up fast."

We prefer to save up our cash towards our "forever" house instead. Also, we think at this time that what the property really has going for it is the land. If we divided it up it would lose a huge amount of its charm. The house itself has no charm at all; the land has charm. It has trees and wildlife and feels like you're in a forest; it's quite pleasant.

"If you can get the land divided and ready to go in the next couple of
months, you might (just possibly) be able to move into a new place by
Christmas-- and get on with your life."

No, because that would require getting a mortgage. We believe debt is something you do when things are more certain, and given the state of the economy and world affairs we are very far away from the kind of comfort level that would draw us to a mortgage.

I suppose that wraps up this particular thread. I'll post a new one with a much more accurate to-scale sketch of the kitchen, dining and laundry floorplan so it can be hashed out better. Thanks again everyone! This was very insightful and educational.

That's fantastic that you own this place free and clear. Wise decision to stay out of debt. The property sounds really nice. Would you and DH consider building on the property yourselves when you're financially ready?

Home Chef is actually talking about putting a jut out wall in the current opening, so there is no need to move a load bearing wall at all. This is a reasonably priced idea. You could put some shelves in on the wall to fill the space between the fridge bump and the outside wall (charm!) I also wonder if it might work to put the DW next to fridge. Cut back the current counter top, if necessary. You could top the dw with a piece of butcher block to keep costs low.

Will it be costly to put the fridge in the back door's spot? Maybe, maybe not. You could cantilever the fridge slightly into the opening, making the fridge counter depth.

Some houses seem to be born with charm. Others, well, you sort of have to grab a big chunk of their flesh, jab a syringe into their hip, and inject what's missing. ; ) Fresh paint, simple, chunky mouldings (we've ripped plywood and routed the edges to make mouldings as an inexpensive solution that looks great painted), cottagey furnishings, keeping the space airy and clutter free, hanging curtains in a way that makea the windows look larger than they really are...all these are things that can be used for the "injections." They don't cost much, but they can help make it homey for you now, and help the place look more appealing to buyers if and when you do decide to sell.

Could you please post a link onto this thread when you get your new thread started? That way I won't miss it. I don't check kitchens every day anymore, but I'd love to be able to help brainstorm with you if I can. : )

Laughable, I think they use that back door. Besides, i'm not sure , but would blocking a second egress be a fire code violation in some areas? Your first suggestion shows promise, however. Depends on actual house scale, though.

Laughable, Thanks for the drawing. That's exactly what I was describing. A picture is worth a thousand words.

If it were reasonable to move that back door to the laundry area, you would have room for a pantry and a closet. Wouldn't that be nice?

My first DW was a Kitchen Aid Convertible. It had a butcher block top. We built it in 14 years later and used the butcher block top on a cabinet between stove and refrig. That's still there! You don't want a DW clear across the floor from the sink. Store it there and then pull it over, load and run. SO much easier.

Mortgages are not bad us fixed rate and one can easily afford the payment. There can be significant tax advantages. But a mortgage needs to be on a house with excellent resale value. You did the right thing owning this outright.

Our next house will also be paid for in cash but it's going to be our "forever" home and we are projecting that its going to cost 200k. DH owns a business, and now I also own a business. Both our businesses do well. We are not rich. We are middle class. But we will not get a mortgage; we are very debt-averse.

Too bad you feel that way because with money so cheap now (meaning such low interest rates), you're actually using the bank's money and it's cheaper than doling out cash to buy. Having a low rate mortgage is actually having the mortgage work for you. It would have allowed you to possibly buy a house that wasn't a money pit and worth only the price of the land and instead buy a house that would actually appreciate in value over the next 10-20 years. It would have also allowed you mortgage deductions, lowering the taxes you pay annually.

However with the house you bought, then yes you were right to buy it outright because the truth is you might not see any return on the house. It does sound like you have a beautiful property so hopefully that will appreciate enough for you to see some return of investment.

We believe debt is something you do when things are more certain, and given the state of the economy and world affairs we are very far away from the kind of comfort level that would draw us to a mortgage.

World affairs are never stable and haven't been for thousands of years. If you're waiting for it to become more stable, you'll be living in your $25,000 house for the rest of your life.

As for the state of the economy, it too goes up and down. Right now mortgage rates are very low like I said above so money is cheap to use. It is probably one of the better investments with the exception of putting your money into the market.

BTW in my first apartment I had a portable DW. It was wonderful to have and I never regretted it. I kept it across the aisle from the sink and moved it over when I needed to run it.

I think it's wonderful that you're 100% debt free. We will be there in a couple years. We're 38 and 40 and wish we would have done it sooner. People think we're weird for living in a small house below our means and only paying cash, but that's okay. We're enjoying financial peace and if that's weird, we'll take it :-)

Link to new thread, as requested by laughablemoments