"There is a class-action lawsuit against Windsor for knowingly selling defective windows"

I would never have even thought of recommend anything Windsor before you mentioned the lawsuit. I have no doubt that if their full framed windows were defective (I thought they were just plain garbage all along), the sash kits would be no better.

It's hard to tell if a lawsuit has actually been filed. There are numerous law firms fishing for consumer complaints in order to either file or add to a pending lawsuit. At any rate, the original windows to the 1981 house are wood Pella's they are all under a roof overhang, so the frames are in good shape and I hope to have no (?) problems with the install. The contractor is an excellent carpenter so I have confidence he will know what he is doing if an adjustment needs to be made.

If Windsor (according to you) is crap, then is a Marvin Tilt Pac sash kit comparable in quality to an actual Marvin Integrity window or is there something in the manufacturing process that lower-quality materials or a different sub-contracting company or something is used to produce them? Just because they are Marvin-labelled doesn't necessarily mean they are Marvin quality if there are other factors that go into their sash kit manufacturing process.

Any opinions out there by people who have Marvin Tilt Pacs?

Marvin makes a fine sash kit but there clad units can make a proper fit difficult if the frame is out of square since the cladding prohibits cutting of the sash.

I have seen many good carpenters screw up sash kits, they do not go in like other Windows and require different tools and materials. If you get lucky and your opening is square and no shimming is needed you should be ok. It is rare for me not to do some type of modifications on an opening or the the window. Houses from the 50's and newer tend to be pretty straight and simple.

Can you point me in the direction of what tools are needed for sash kit install, and expert advice on tips and tricks, or how-to or Sash Kit 101, so I can be sure my contractor is familiar with what could go wrong and best practices to deal with it?

I put in (DIY) Marvin tilt packs, about 10 years ago, they work great.

The biggest part is to measure. Most of my windows were right on with a stock size, but a few were 1/8" narrow of stock. I bought stock. If you don't go with a stock size - the price increase is expontional.

I finished the interior of all my windows with acrylic polyurethane. Lay flat (used saw horses and old doors) Sand after the first coat, vacuum, wipe with tack rag. Apply two more coats - use a foam brush - wrap in foil between applications of varnish. Finishing is the PITA part. But then you can't get the wood dirty at install time.

You learn on the first window - how to remove your old window, in an 'elegant' manner - rather than taking a chain saw/sledge hammer to it :)

You just need simple carpenter tools hammer, j-bar, pliers, tri-square, measure tape, putty knife ( to pry away trim ), screwdrivers, etc.

Have your wife take down the drapes, move the furniture back, put down a drop cloth, pick a nice day, start early in the morning. Remove the current sashes. There are about 10 brackets - five on each side,. You nail these to the window frame - they have 'fish hook' ends. You take the new jam (that has foam on the back) and push it to interlock the fish hooks. That's it. Once the jams are installed, the window goes right in!

Just wanted to thank everyone for their comments. Your advice and tips are very helpful, so thanks for taking the time.

The tracks may have to be cut for height and to match the sill angle as well.

there should be at least an 1/8 in freeplay between the head and the sill, if they don't slide in easily they will need to be cut..

Make sure not to get any paint on the jambliner or the sides of the window where they meet the jambliner.

I have Marvin double-hung inserts as well as a Windsor Win-Pac double-hung sash kit in my house (both wood/clad) The Marvin's are very solid and attractive. The tilt-out-to-clean aspect is a bit tricky - partially because the window is so darned heavy. My disappointment with the Marvin's is that they ice up every single winter. By comparison, the Windsor sash kit is solid (although not quite as heavy as the Marvin's but still substantial). I like that it has a groove in the rail to pull the window up and down (wish my Marvin's had that). Best of all, the Windsor sash kit has NEVER has ice problems. I believe that says a lot.

Whatever window you choose, my advice is to not install them yourself. Get a professional and make sure it is done correctly.

Regarding lawsuits -- you can search the internet and find lawsuits for Marvin, Andersen, Pella, etc. In addition, a lot of law firms like to fish for people to join class action lawsuits because it can make their firm a lot of money. It doesn't even mean they have an active lawsuit -- they're just fishing for anything they can get.

I concur with the lawsuit opinion! However I'm curious about why the Marvin's ice up and the Windsors don't. Could placement be the difference? Could the frames the Marvins were installed in have been an issue? How many Marvins and Windsors to compare - also how long have you had them. There have been reports of cladding issues with Windsors after a few years. What is your "guess" as to the different performance?

I have Marvins - I'm in Minneapolis, no ice, no condensation, keep home at about 25% humidity - cause of grand piano and other musical instruments.

Hi Joy -
I have pondered that question too. I have had the Marvins for 6-8 years and the Windsors for 3 years.

I have Marvin's on all 4 sides of my house on both the first and second floors. The second floor is all box inserts, and they all ice up. The main floor is a combination of inserts and new construction (bay, casements and fixed), and all ice up except the windows on the south (1 insert, 1 new construction casement) and the one on the east (a large, fixed window in the kitchen).

The Windsor sash kit is on a east-facing window in a bedroom on the first floor. I didn't mention it before, but I also have two Windsor new construction double-hungs on the north side of the first floor, and they also never ice up.

I have a feeling that the ice on the Marvin's could be a combination of factors:
1) The Marvin's have a metal spacer and the Windsor's have a foam "Super Spacer" between the panes. The foam spacer is said to be superior when it comes to reducing conduction of cold/hot to the inner pane (and having both brands, I believe it).
2) For the Marvin inserts (because I don't have a Windsor insert to compare to --- just a sash kit and new construction) -- I have a feeling the icing may be compounded by the Marvin insert allowing more cold through to the inside of the window. That is just conjecture though, because I respect the experience of the person who installed them and don't believe he would have skimped on his work. In addition, the Marvin bay window, which is not an insert, also ices up -- but that could be because it sticks out from the house a bit, thus it gets colder (even though the builder insulated the heck out of it.)

I don't know what the cladding issues would be, but mine have been fine. They are all just plain white clad.

Hope this helps!

Is the ice forming on the inside or outer pane of glass? Do they all have storm windows ?

While edge of glass performance is better with a non-metallic spacer, the Cardinal stainless steel spacer system has near identical performance and is easily one of the top 3 glass manufacturers in the US. I would not rule out a Marvin because of a metal spacer in this comparison.