never amend a planting hole ...

the problem with bad clay.. is proper drainage ... and you plant above grade.. as discussed at the link ...

there is no reason you cant live your tree dream ...

ken

https://sites.google.com/site/tnarboretum/Home/planting-a-tree-or-shrub

Ken said, "never amend a planting hole" but I see you, Paige, did ask how large an area to amend. To which I" say, yes, at a sufficient scale, amending soil can make a difference. We don't like backfill soils amended and that really is useless, but if a large area can be so treated, that's another matter.

i had a great friend in avon OH ... GRHS ... if he left the water on for too long ... it would puddle on that horrible OH clay ... after rain storms.. he could have lakes for days ...

to grow hosta and all other perennials .... etc ..... he built 12 inch beds of high draining soil ...

he planted trees etc.. in higher berms ...

there was simply no drainage ...

so.. toms suggestion .. that a few inches of topsoil .. over area .. though technically correct in most clay soils .. may do little or nothing in the worst of clay soil ...

which leads us to the rub ... we cant see or understand your soil structure ... and you need som local guidance ...

i would go to a high end nursery ... and see if they know local conditions.. and can give you some good info ... then bring it back here.. for interpretation ...

you could also track down a local garden club... and get some great info there ... they arent hard to find ...

also ... contact your local arboretum ... i cant recall the one in cinci ... not only in regard to clay.. but also the plants your wish to grow ...

ken

https://www.google.com/search?q=Cincinnati+area&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=Cincinnati+area+garden+clubs

Wouldn't the hill help with the drainage? Is there any empty spot that is near the top of the hill, in view of your house or road, and has the original soil?

You could build...a berm.
<ducks and runs for cover>

Haha.........I see what you did there!

Thanks everyone, I haven't given up hope but I'll look for a few local experts.

Ken . . . I happen to live 2 miles from Mt. Airy Arboretum, and while I haven't seen a silverbell there, I'll try to hunt down the expert in charge. They do have some beautiful specimens there. Or I can try Spring Grove Cemetery.

And after all the rain we have, yes my Ohio clay hill is a puddle. How do you have a puddle on a hill - welcome to Ohio!

You may also want to check out the Cincinnati Zoo & Botanical Gardens. The author of this article used to post here regularly (Decumbent), but has apparently moved on to a greener garden forum. He's a horticulturist at the zoo and a bona fide tree geek. I bet he could steer you in the right direction.

Seriously, I do think a berm might help here. Water would tend to run down it and drain down the hill. You could put a ditch around it to divert water away.

Thanks macckia!

Neither of these will stand for lime in the soil so a highly alkaline calceareous soil like mine is testing if not impossible - still having a punt of styrax though but minimally hopeful..

rhizo - Ohio clay is typically poorly drained and high pH, very different from Alabama clay. Having said that, I believe Spring Grove Cemetery has specimens of both Halesia and Styrax species - see p 27 here: http://www.springgrove.org/uploads/docs/1/Plant_Collection_Booklet_6.27.2013.pdf

I also second the suggestion by maackia to try the contact at the Zoo for advice.

Here's a link to a useful, though large, map of US soil pH conditions.

http://www.bonap.org/2008_Soil/pH20110321.png

Amazing! I think I see my house :-)

For real, I see the lime basin running down the Hudson River that I live in. I've had a Halesia in the front yard for a couple of years now, and the pH hasn't seemed to bother it in the slightest. Anything that likes acidic soil hates my yard, so anything that does well I assume doesn't have strong pH preferences.

Thanks again everyone - I will have to drive down to Spring Grove and check out those trees! I drive past it everyday on the way to work. I toured it once but it has been a long time. I have hope now, and I may just plant one and see how it goes.

arbordave - I just looked at the Spring Grove booklet - where has it been all my life! Thanks so much for pointing it out. I wish I had it when I first started planting my yard.

Cool map, Davidrt, but I wish it had a legend. I take it the grayish shades are higher pH areas?

If you click on the map to zoom in, you pick up labels. Orange is acidic. Blue is alkaline. The color coding isn't necessarily consistent, which is strange.

Ah, that makes sense to me - ph is always a huge consideration in the UK - rhodies, for example are absolute fails in most areas of the country apart from highland or high rainfall areas on the western side of the country, while ph never seemed to be such a defining characteristic in the US...and with acidic conditions on BOTH coasts, I see why, not least because it is much easier to amend acidic soil (to at least one logarithmic value on the scale) - liming is still routinely practised for example- than to change a highly alkali soil for any length of time. Sadly, enkianthus, a much loved shrub of my youth, is also an utter fail here in chalky east anglia.

Camp, pH does come into play here too. To cite the Rhodies again, where I live, they should be good, but are mostly not due to limestone bedrock which is often quite near the surface, and a generally circum-neutral soil. So it matters here stateside too. There's lots more such examples.

Thaks Mad-I see that now.

If alkaline soil is your problem...have you thought of growing Yellowood (

Cladrastis kentukea)?

I surely have, Edincoln - in fact, it may have been you who put the idea in my head initially (as this is not a tree we are very familiar with in the UK)

Regarding silverbell, I have a small hoheria lyallii on the go as a silverbell substitute - although not hardy to much below z7/8 (New Zealand natives), these are infinitely more tolerant of alkaline soil

Hoherias are nice. On my first trip to Kew in 1993, I have fond memories of a huge Hoheria angustifolia in full bloom. When I went back in 96, the cold 95-96 had killed it. I think H. lyallii is hardier (no more than zn 8) and thus more common in UK gardens.

You need to post more pictures, Campanula! Let us see your Hoheria.

Styrax japonica is a better looking tree than Styrax obassia IMO. The japonica has smaller leaves and more blossoms, but requires more pruning. Both have limited Fall color and smaller leaves are easier to deal with in the Fall. Most groundcovers can't 'eat' the large leaves of obassia. It does have a tropical look though.

Mike